Snippets from the hard copy Universal Reconciliation library of rodger

[dialoguewithus]

What teachings did the apostle Paul emphasize?

“Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, foremost of whom am I.” 1 Tim. 1:15.

1 Tim 4:1-11: “Now the spirit is saying explicitly, that in subsequent eras some will be withdrawing from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and the teachings of demons, in the hypocrisy of false expressions, their own conscience having been cauterized; forbidding to marry, abstaining from foods, which God creates to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who believe and realize the truth, seeing that every creature of God is ideal and nothing is to be cast away, being taken with thanksgiving, for it is hallowed through the word of God and pleading. By suggesting these things to the brethren, you should be an ideal servant of Christ Jesus, fostering with the words of faith and of the ideal teaching which you have fully followed. Now profane and old womanish myths refuse, yet exercise yourself in devoutness, for bodily exercise is beneficial for a few things, yet devoutness is beneficial for all, having promise for the life which now is, and that which is impending. Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching.”

Romans 5:15-19: “But not as the offense, thus also the grace. For if, by the offense of the one, the many died, much rather the grace of God and the gratuity in grace, which is of the One Man, Jesus Christ, to the many superabounds. And not as through one act of sinning is the gratuity. For, indeed, the judgment is out of one into condemnation, yet the grace is out of many offenses into a just award. For if, by the offense of the one, death reigns through the one, much rather, those obtaining the superabundance of grace and the gratuity of righteousness shall be reigning in life through the One, Jesus Christ. Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.”

“Faithful is the saying, and I am intending you to be insistent concerning these things, that those who have believed God may be concerned to preside for ideal acts. These things are ideal and beneficial for humanity.” Titus 3:8.

“Let no one be deluding himself. If anyone among you is presuming to be wise in this eon, let him become stupid, that he may be becoming wise, for the wisdom of this world is stupidity with God. For it is written, ‘He is clutching the wise in their craftiness.’ And again, ‘The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are vain.’ So that, let no one be boasting in men…” 1 Cor. 3:18-21.

So we can sum up Paul’s principal teachings thus: God, through Christ, saves all mankind, including the foremost sinners. God is especially the Savior of the elect, who should exercise themselves in devoutness, which is beneficial for the present life, and that which is impending, in the eons of the eons. God’s wisdom seems stupid, according to human reasoning. Salvation is of God, not of our own doing, so we must not boast in anyone but God, nor fall into the trap of the hypocrisy of false expressions. Those obtaining the superabundance of grace and the gratuity of righteousness will be reigning (governing) with Christ. This is a reward reserved for some believers; those whose walk is faithful. 2 Tim. 4:7, 8; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; Col. 3:23-25. On the other hand, salvation, whether for the elect, or later for the vessels of indignation, is a gift, being “the grace of God and the gratuity in grace”. Col. 1:5; 1 Thes. 5:8-11.

[Samie]

I asked: "Where in Scriptures does it say this, or just even gives a hint? All were saved from sin and are being saved from sin, YES, Scriptures say so. But for ALL to be ultimately saved? I guess not."

Your reply: (My comments in blue)

Here are a few:

Jesus will be satisfied with the fruits of His sacrifice. Is. 53:11. What will it take for this to happen? We know that God “wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.” 1 Tim. 2:4.

[Samie]

The doctrine that all will ultimately be saved no matter what is Scripturally bankrupt.

Instead, the Savior said that He will reward everyone according to what each has done:

Quote:

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Scriptures say the reward of the righteous is eternal life; that of the wicked is the wrath of God:

Romans 2:5-11

Quote:

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[dialoguewithus]

“GOD'S POWER UNLIMITED.

He does according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, what are you doing? Dan. 4: 35. For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, and returns not thither, but waters the earth, and makes it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater so shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth; it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isa. 55: 10, 11. Who works all things after the counsel of his own will. Eph. 1: 11. The Lord God omnipotent reigns. Rev. 19: 6.

Then nothing can hinder his power from executing whatever he wishes to accomplish. And yet how often it is said that the weakest human being who ever lived, is endowed with a will so strong that if he please to exercise it, God cannot accomplish a plan between which and himself that stubborn will shall rise, though it is a plan which he has pledged his sacred word, and sent his only son to live and die to accomplish! God has commanded all souls to obey him; has declared that all shall obey him; but we are told that if we help him he will succeed, but if we decline to do so, we can defeat him - can throw the divine purpose from the track, and though God's omnipotence exert itself to the utmost, it shall fail utterly of its purpose. Is not this limiting that attribute of Deity on which the Divine character rests?

GOD'S WISDOM UNLIMITED.

His understanding is infinite. Ps. 147: 5. Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient time the things that are not yet done, saying, my counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure. Isa. 46: 10. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Acts 15: 18.

To claim that God desires the final welfare of all men, and that his wisdom has devised the best plan possible to infinite wisdom, but that man's rebellion has not been foreseen, or, if foreseen, not amply provided for, presents the same disastrous result. What would he said of a mechanic who should construct a sewing machine which, on trial, would not sew? On examination it is found that a little wheel or spring has been inserted that utterly prevents the machine from doing what its maker declares it was constructed to do! Would not such a machinist convict himself of folly? To say that God has created men to serve him, and has conferred upon them an agency that prevents them from serving him - that he has not wisdom enough to overcome the agency he has given them, is to limit God's wisdom. To say that man's agency is not abundantly provided for in the plans of God, and that all souls will not be willing to obey him in the day of his power, is to limit the Holy One of Israel. The divine perfections are equally impeached if we suppose that God will do all he wishes, but that he does not desire that all souls shall enjoy him; that his wisdom and power will accomplish all he pleases, but the final triumph of evil in a portion of his universe is a part of the divine plan. This is Calvinism. It plumes itself on a strong and wise God, but it builds his wisdom and power on the ruins of his goodness, just as in other systems of error his goodness stands on the ruins of his wisdom and power.”

-A snippet from BIBLE PROOFS OF UNIVERSAL SALVATION By J. W. HANSON, 1888

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Bibleproofs2.html

[dialoguewithus]

In 2 Cor 5:18, 19 we have kat all a ge' DOWN-CHANGE , one side only, in an estrangement. (conciliate is kat all a'ss o)

In Col. 1:20, 21 we have apo kat all a'ss o FROM-DOWN-CHANGE , both sides in an estrangement.

Let's not fall into the mistaken idea that man can ultimately achieve his will against the will of the omnipotent God of love. There is only one Placer; not even Christ did His own will, but the will of Him who sent Him. God will fulfill ALL His promises, not just those that fit within a certain human dogma.

[rodgertutt]

#61 - TWO STUDIES ON HEAVEN AND HELL – A.E. KNOCH

“Love is the great thing. God loves me. Christ died for me to display God’s affection. It has filled my heart to overflowing. I have tried to share it with my fellows, but O, so feebly and faithlessly. Yet I have known no joy so pure and permanent, no bliss so ecstatic as comes to me when some straying sinner or seeking saint enjoys God’s love through some word of mine. What will it be to be perfectly equipped with inexhaustible supplies of power and grace and fare forth into the celestial realms as an ambassador of peace to proclaim the evangel of God’s limitless love to the celestials of the starry spheres? This --- this will be happiness --- and heaven.

Not only does Paul see the entire earth blessed and saved, but all reconciled whom God created – even the principalities and powers of the heavens (Col. 1:20). So great is the power of the cross!”

[Guest]

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon."

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth.

Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain. God's entire universe was clean, and the great controversy was forever ended. Wherever we looked, everything upon which the eye rested was beautiful and holy.

Early Writings pg. 294

[dialoguewithus]

“"GOD THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN, ESPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE." 1 Tim. iv. 10.

Any obscurity in this passage becomes clear the moment we reflect on God's plan by which the elect - those who believe - are first saved, and then become the means, here or in the ages yet to come, of saving all men.

"OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, WHO HAS ABOLISHED DEATH." 2 Tim. i. 10.

Death is abolished, and with death that which it in Scripture implies, sin and evil. For death abolished, and yet death in its worst form, the second death, maintained for ever, are plain contradictions. Will those who maintain the doctrine of conditional immortality explain how death can be abolished, and yet swallow up finally all sinners in a sentence of annihilation?

"FOR THE GRACE OF GOD HAS APPEARED, BRINGING SALVATION TO ALL MEN." Titus ii. 11.

Yes, "bringing salvation to all men:" this is precisely the larger hope. But how is "salvation brought to all men" consistent with the damnation of myriads of men - nay, of any man? if, as we are distinctly told, God's gifts are without repentance, i.e.., effective and irrevocable.”

A snippet from Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin http://www.tlchrist.info/filealin.htm

dik ai o’o justify- constitute righteous (not forgive or pardon as if unjust but pronounce not guilty, acquit, vindicate)

Example of Dik ai o’o: Ro. 6:7; see 2 Cor. 5:14.

dik ai’ o si s justifying- Ro. 4:25; 5:18. We all face consequences due to our sins, and we will be presented at the dais of God and will give Him account. Ro. 14:10-13. Most will die, many will die twice. Nevertheless, the destiny of humanity is fixed; we have been justified!

[dialoguewithus]

Satan will be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons -Rev. 20:10. This includes the eon of the eons (the eon of the new earth). The exact same language is used of those who "shall be reigning for the eons of the eons." -Rev. 22:5. God's entire universe will not be clean until the consummation, after the eons conclude. 1 Cor. 15:20-28. It is only then that the last enemy, death, is abolished. (See my previous post on the consummation.) "As in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."

Does anyone have any thoughts on who in the heavens will be reconciled with God -Col. 1:20?

[Gibs]

Eze 28:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Na 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[dialoguewithus]

Eze 28:19 "All knowing you [the leader of Tyre] among the peoples have been astonished at you, Wastes you have been, and you are not--to the eon."

Here are some texts mentioning the coming eon: Mk 10:30; Lk 18:30; Hb 6:5.

This mentions the conclusion of this eon: Mt 13:39.

1 Cor 2:7 mentions before the eons.

Ro 16:25 mentions a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now.

It is critical to understand the term “the eons of the eons”. While this phrase has often been translated, “forever and ever”, I assert that this is an impossible meaning. First of all, an eon is a finite period of time, having a beginning and an end. Second, an almost identical use of language is found elsewhere in the Bible, giving us clear guidance as to meaning.

Hebrews 9:3

Now after the second curtain is a tabernacle which is termed the holy of holies, having the golden censer and the ark of the covenant…

That was the holiest part of the temple, where the tables of the law were kept. God’s glory was revealed over the ark or chest of the covenant.

Christ is “Lord of lords and King of kings” –Rev. 17:14.

So “Lord of lords”, King of kings”, “holy of holies”, “eon of the eons”, refer to the greatest of their class. The eons of the eons are yet future and can be considered the greatest eons, for Christ and His people will be ruling. Rev. 11:15; 22:5. The eons of the eons are two; the first is about 1,000 years long, and the final eon (the eon of the eons- Ephesians 3:21) will be the new earth eon of Rev. 21 and 22.

[Samie]

“"GOD THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN, ESPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE." 1 Tim. iv. 10.

Any obscurity in this passage becomes clear the moment we reflect on God's plan by which the elect - those who believe - are first saved, and then become the means, here or in the ages yet to come, of saving all men.

[dialoguewithus]

Hi, Samie. 1 Cor. 15 speaks truth to me- death will be abolished when mankind is no longer mortal. Paul doesn't say death was abolished in the past. I know I'm still mortal. So, any thoughts on who in the heavens will be reconciled to God? Col. 1:20.

[dialoguewithus]

Samie, I see the source of confusion: "yet now is being manifested through the advent of our Saviour, Christ Jesus, Who, indeed, abolishes death, yet illuminates life and incorruption through the evangel" 2 Tim. 1:10. From the Concordant Literal Version. Commentary: The abolition of death is put in the indefinite or aorist tense, as He has done it in His own case and will do it for all in the future.

[dialoguewithus]

The Greek verbal world is divided up into three systems, called present, aorist, and perfect. Each of these systems has a distinctive stem that indicates which system a verb belongs to.

Aorist aspect. Aorist aspect is like a photograph, a single snapshot image. The aorist stem simply indicates verbal action. There is no emphasis on the process of the action unfolding. The aorist is the most neutral aspect. Think about the aorist stem as action.

http://mythfolklore.net/bibgreek/morphology/verb_system.htm

[Samie]

Hi, Samie. 1 Cor. 15 speaks truth to me- death will be abolished when mankind is no longer mortal. Paul doesn't say death was abolished in the past. I know I'm still mortal. So, any thoughts on who in the heavens will be reconciled to God? Col. 1:20.

I was asking about Col 2:13. Does this verse speak Truth to you?

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

[dialoguewithus]

Because the aorist was not maintained in either Latin or the Germanic languages, there have long been difficulties in translating the Greek New Testament into Western languages. The aorist has often been interpreted as making a strong statement about the aspect or even the time of an event, when, in fact, due to its being the unmarked (default) form of the Greek verb, such implications are often left to context. Thus, within New Testament hermeneutics, it is considered an exegetical fallacy to attach undue significance to uses of the aorist.[13] Although one may draw specific implications from an author's use of the imperfective or perfect, no such conclusions can, in general, be drawn from the use of the aorist, which may refer to an action "without specifying whether the action is unique, repeated, ingressive, instantaneous, past, or accomplished."[13] In particular, the aorist does not imply a "once for all" action, as it has commonly been misinterpreted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aorist

[dialoguewithus]

Sure does, Samie. It's about our being blessed in Christ to belong to His Body.

[Samie]

Samie, I see the source of confusion: "yet now is being manifested through the advent of our Saviour, Christ Jesus, Who, indeed, abolishes death, yet illuminates life and incorruption through the evangel" 2 Tim. 1:10. From the Concordant Literal Version. Commentary: The abolition of death is put in the indefinite or aorist tense, as He has done it in His own case and will do it for all in the future.

KJV 2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

'abolished' translated from Greek'katargesantos' verb participle aorist active genitive masculine singular from 'katargew'

Romans 6:9-10 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God

'died' from Greek 'apethanen' verb indicative aorist active 3rd person singular from 'apothneskw'

Quite clear that the death he abolished is comparable with the death He died.

[John317]

The book of Revelation has to do with what will take place on this earth and the coming earth in the future; it reveals many important truths for our learning. I feel it is even more important for Israel, although the time is not yet for them to recognize it as such.

John, the writer of the Apocalypse, doesn't share your view.

He said,

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place....[3] Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.{Rev. 1: 1,3}

The Deceiver wants Christians to believe that Revelation deals only with the future instead of with Christians. The True Witness, on the other hand, tells us that Revelation deals with things that "must soon take place" and that "the time is near." It seems clear to me that Christ wanted readers in the first century and onwards to pay attention to His revelation because it deals with all of us from that time until the second coming.

[John317]

... "yet now is being manifested through the advent of our Saviour, Christ Jesus, Who, indeed, abolishes death, yet illuminates life and incorruption through the evangel" 2 Tim. 1:10. From the Concordant Literal Version. Commentary: The abolition of death is put in the indefinite or aorist tense, as He has done it in His own case and will do it for all in the future.

Jesus took away the power of death at his resurrection. Paul is not saying, of course, that there is no more death or that people no longer really die. His point is that because of Christ, death doesn't have the last word.

As he says elsewhere:

1 Cor. 15:54

When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

"Death is swallowed up in victory."

Therefore what Paul is saying parallels Christ's own words in Rev. 1: 18:

I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

[John317]

...

'abolished' translated from Greek'katargesantos' verb participle aorist active genitive masculine singular from 'katargew'

Romans 6:9-10 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

You're right about the Greek of 2 Tim 1: 10 being aorist, but that doesn't mean the "abolition" must be understood as having taken place only in the past.

Christ destroyed the power of death so that it no longer has dominion over anyone who genuinely places his obedient faith in Him. Its power over us was broken potentially at the resurrection of Christ and it will be broken completely in actuality for us at the second coming if we are faithful to Him.

What dialoguewithus says in post #517488 about the use and translation of the aorist is correct. The aorist can be translated as simple past (I loosed) or as a perfect tense (I have loosed).

It is usually translated as finished action that took place in the past, although it need not be understood in this way. In any case, the kind of action is more important, and this is punctiliar.

Here's a paragraph from Ray Summer's Essential's of New Testament Greek (page 67):

Quote:

There are several shades of meaning in the use fo the aorist tense. The major ones are the constative in which the action is looked upon in its entirety-- ebaptise tous anthropous. Actually the act may have covered considerable time but it is presented as one act. The ingressive aorist views the act as having occurred but emphasizes the initiation: di' humas eptocheuse. "For your sakes he became poor." The act is one but viewewd from its initiation. The culminative aorist views the act as having occurred but emphasizes the end of the action or the state of being resulting from the action. At this point the aorist encroaches upon the function of the Greek perfect... Ton proton logon epoieesameen. "The former teatise I have made." The act of writing is looked upon as one act but the emphasis is on the finished product.

Charles B. Williams has rightly translated 2 Tim. 1: 10, "... Jesus, who through the good news has put a stop to the power of death..." (The New Testament In the Language of the People)

[John317]

...yet now is being manifested through the advent of our Saviour, Christ Jesus, Who, indeed, abolishes death, yet illuminates life and incorruption through the evangel" 2 Tim. 1:10. From the Concordant Literal Version.

The Concordant Literal NT often translates the aorist tense as a present tense, and I've especially noticed this in the book of Revelation. It's usually appropriate, yet it's good to be aware of when it's happening.

[rodgertutt]

#62 - A RANSOM FOR ALL – E.T. SPRINGETT MOXHAM

“We scan the dark ages of man and note how in the most pitiful ignorance, men, women, and children have died without the light of love – bitter, belabored and bereft of hope. All this and worse if the theories of men who limit the Gospel of Christ are right!

But why limit God? Why limit His power? Why indeed limit His plan and purposes for the ages of time? Why take part of His plan and label it as the whole? Why limit the great God of love at all, He Who is infinite love? Why indeed limit the compassion and overflowing love of Jesus ‘who gave Himself a ransom for all’? (1Tim. 2:5,6). Are not the arms of Jesus long enough or strong enough to reach out and snatch the sinner from the jaws of suffering and death, if not in this dispensation, then in the ages to come? God ‘will have all men to be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth’ (Rom. 5:18). Never let it be said that any one of us limited God in any way.”

[dialoguewithus]

Thanks for your thoughts, John317