Snippets from the hard copy Universal Reconciliation library of rodger

[Lysimachus]

Thanks for your comment, RLH. Personally, it's nonsense to me that God created most of mankind to be annihilated. And it's nonsense that He wants all to be saved, and "He shall be satisfied" with Christ's saving work, yet won't save all.

It's nonsense that the majority of people choose to be annihilated. It is a form of insanity to not choose eternal life.

But that's what the mystery of iniquity is all about.

Satan created nonsense, and it is up to use to CHOOSE getting out of that nonsense. God cannot be blamed for nonsense here. Only individuals who choose Satan and death over eternal life fall into the "nonsense" category.

You're just looking at all of this wrong. A wrong perspective that your mind is so bent out of shape on this issue, that it's going to take everything to bend it back straight again so you can see clearly.

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

I agree God didn't create us to annihilate us. Most will choose that fate.

Did you guys ever read

Eternal Death (Conditional Immortality, Annihilation):

One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory

By Gary Amirault?

It's the testimony/exposition of why Gary changed from believing that the Bible teaches annihilation to believing that it teaches universal salvation.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

Quit repeating yourself over and over and over again. We can read!

[dialoguewithus]

Verses to Ponder

Exodus 10:20 (CLV)

Yet Yahweh made the heart of Pharaoh steadfast, so that he did not dismiss the sons of Israel.

Exodus 10:27 (CLV)

Yet Yahweh made the heart of Pharaoh steadfast, and he did not comply so as to dismiss them.

Exodus 11:10 (CLV)

Hence Moses and Aaron did all these miracles before Pharaoh. And Yahweh made the heart of Pharaoh steadfast, so that he did not dismiss the sons of Israel from his land.

Exodus 14:4 (CLV)

Thus I will make the heart of Pharaoh steadfast, so he will pursue after them. Then I will be glorified in Pharaoh and in all his army; and the Egyptians will know that I am Yahweh. Hence they did so.

Exodus 14:8 (CLV)

Thus Yahweh made the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt steadfast; and he pursued after the sons of Israel. The sons of Israel were going forth with a high hand,

Exodus 14:17 (CLV)

And I, behold Me making the heart of the Egyptians steadfast that they may enter after them; for I shall be glorified over Pharaoh and over all his army, over his chariots and over his horsemen.

Numbers 16:28 (CLV)

Moses said: By this shall you know that Yahweh has sent me to perform all these deeds, that they are not from my own heart.

Deuteronomy 2:30 (CLV)

Yet Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass through it, for Yahweh your Elohim made his spirit obstinate and made his heart resolute, that He might give him into your hand (as is known this day).

Job 17:4 (CLV)

For You have secluded their heart from intelligence; Therefore, You shall not exalt them.

Psalms 51:10 (CLV)

Create for me a clean heart, O Elohim, And renew within me an established spirit.

Proverbs 19:21 (CLV)

Many are the designs in a man's heart, Yet the counsel of Yahweh, it shall stand firm.

Proverbs 21:2 (CLV)

Every way of a man seems upright in his own eyes, Yet it is Yahweh Who regulates the hearts."

Ecclesiastes 3:11 (CLV)

He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."

Isaiah 6:10 (CLV)

And see you to see, yet you must not be knowing. Stouten the heart of this people, and their ears make heavy, and their eyes make squint. Lest they are seeing with their eyes, and with their ears are hearing, and with their heart are understanding, and, turning back, then healing is theirs."

Isaiah 44:18 (CLV)

They do not know, nor are they understanding, for He plasters their eyes, from seeing, and their hearts, from intelligence.

Isaiah 47:10 (CLV)

And you are trusting in your knowledge. You are saying, `No one is seeing me.' Your wisdom and your knowledge, it turns you back. And you are saying in your heart, `I, and only I, further!'

And you, you devised against me evil, yet the Elohim devises it for me for good, that it may work out as at this day, to preserve alive many people. Gen. 50:20

Acts 2:23

This One, given up in the specific counsel and foreknowledge of God, you, gibbeting by the hand of the lawless, assassinate

Jeremiah 17:5 (CLV)

Thus said Yahweh:Cursed [is] the man who does trust in man, And has made flesh his arm, And from Yahweh whose heart turns.

Jeremiah 17:9 (CLV)

Crooked [is] the heart above all things, And it [is] incurable--who does know it?

Jeremiah 23:20 (CLV)

The anger of Yahweh does not turn back Till His doing, and till His establishing, The thoughts of His heart, In the latter end of the days you attend to it With understanding.

Rev. 17:17

for God imparts to their hearts to form His opinion, and to form one opinion, and to give their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God shall be accomplished.

making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him) to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ - both that in the heavens and that on the earth in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will Eph. 1:9-11

…Not stronger than He are we! 1 Cor. 10:22

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted By: rodgertutt

Did you guys ever read

Eternal Death (Conditional Immortality, Annihilation):

One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory

By Gary Amirault?

No, I never did read that.

I was hoping some of you might be open minded enough to be curious why a former ANer became convinced that the Bible actually teaches UR, even if you wind up not agreeing with Gary's conclusions.

Eternal Death (Conditional Immortality, Annihilation):

One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory

By Gary Amirault?

It's the testimony/exposition of why Gary changed from believing that the Bible teaches annihilation to believing that it teaches universal salvation.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

[rodgertutt]

#73 - NOTES FROM ROMANS 5 – W.H. GRIFFITH THOMAS

“In Romans 5:18,19 we have on the one side as the cause one lapse and the effects extending to all mankind for condemnation. We have on the other side one just sentence of acquittal, and the effect extending to all mankind for a justifying that carries with it LIFE.

Since ‘the many’ were involved in sin and death through the agency of one man, Adam, ‘much more’ may we believe that ‘the many’ will be involved in righteousness and life through the agency of the One Man, Christ Jesus.”

EDITOR’S NOTE:

Some ask, Why does it say "the many" instead of "all" in Roman 5:19?

This is because the one disobedient man (Adam), and the One righteous Man (Christ) are put in a class by themselves. They are in contrast with "the many."

We may put it as follows:

The one disobedient man plus "the many" equals all mankind made sinners.

The One obedient Man plus "the many" equals all mankind made righteous.

That "the one" plus "the many" made sinners includes all mankind no one will deny.

Even so, "the One" plus "the many" made righteous is all-inclusive and guarantees the salvation of all mankind.

[Samie]

TRUTH: All verses in Scriptures used by the Universalists showing that God SAVED ALL cannot be denied.

Sadly for the Universalists, the fact that God SAVED us is NOT in the FUTURE. It was ALREADY done on the cross, and its effect currently applied. YES, on the cross of Calvary, where God fashioned humanity into the body of His Son (Eph 2:11-19), He SAVED ALL from sin (1 Tim 1:15; 1 Tim 4:10) by forgiving each of us (Eph 2:1; Col 2:13). That death ratified the New Covenant (Heb 9:15-17) and sins currently committed not imputed (2 Cor 5:18, 19) nor remembered (Heb 10:16, 17).

But only the overcomers (Rom 12:21; Rev 3:5) will inherit life eternal(Rom 2:5-11; Rev 21:7, 27); all others will perish in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

[dialoguewithus]

Titus 2:11- For the saving grace of God made its advent to all humanity...

This includes "all humanity"; those who die in infancy (it happens to hundreds if not thousands daily), those who are slaves (as millions are today), those "unreached tribes" known and yet to be discovered, those born into Islam, those born into Judaism, those born into one of several other non-Christian religions, those born into Catholicism, etc. From the Greek for "advent" we get our word "epiphany".

[dialoguewithus]

The lake of fire "is the second death" according to God's Spirit. And God promises to abolish death for all humanity. 1 Cor. 15:20-28.

[dialoguewithus]

Samie, how do you understand Rev. 22:2? What will need to be cured on the new earth?

[rodgertutt]

#75 - THE PLAN OF REDEMPTION SEEN FROM GOD’S VIEWPOINT – DORA VAN ASSEN

“Many do not understand the extent and purpose of God, that He is the propitiation for our sins, AND NOT OURS ONLY, but ALSO for the sins of the whole world (1John 4:10).

God is calling us to come up higher into Him and begin to see from His eyes, from His position.

God never loses! HE WINS ALL! He said, ‘Pick up the fragments, let NOTHING be lost.

This is seen from His side of the picture. We do not have a tired and frustrated God unable or unwilling to save His own creation. He will vindicate His own character and nature of love and power. Praise His Name!”

[Samie]

Samie, how do you understand Rev. 22:2? What will need to be cured on the new earth?

[Samie]

The lake of fire "is the second death" according to God's Spirit. And God promises to abolish death for all humanity. 1 Cor. 15:20-28.

This is why death will be thrown into it to be abolished and annihilated. In the same manner, all whose names are not in the book of life will be thrown into it precisely for the same reason death was thrown into it. Don't you think so, dialoguewithus?

[dialoguewithus]

No, Samie, in reading 1 Cor. 15:20-28 especially, I can't accept the theory that death is abolished in the lake of fire. First, the lake of fire is the second death, so death will still exist as long as any are dead, wouldn't you agree? Those whose names are not in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire because God wills them to be dead during the final eon- their place is outside the city and outside of God's grace until they are vivified, which is of course to be constituted just. Death will be the last enemy abolished. verse 26. However, Satan will be suffering during the following eon, after this earth has been burned up and the new earth has been created. Rev. 20:10. So you feel the nations will need healing on the new earth?

[Lysimachus]

No, Samie, in reading 1 Cor. 15:20-28 especially, I can't accept the theory that death is abolished in the lake of fire. First, the lake of fire is the second death, so death will still exist as long as any are dead, wouldn't you agree? Those whose names are not in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire because God wills them to be dead during the final eon- their place is outside the city and outside of God's grace until they are vivified, which is of course to be constituted just. Death will be the last enemy abolished. verse 26. However, Satan will be suffering during the following eon, after this earth has been burned up and the new earth has been created. Rev. 20:10. So you feel the nations will need healing on the new earth?

Death (for the righteous) is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 is talking about the righteous, not the wicked. It's as simple as that.

[Lysimachus]

The lake of fire "is the second death" according to God's Spirit. And God promises to abolish death for all humanity. 1 Cor. 15:20-28.

It means that there will never be "dying" again. But those wicked will forever be ashes. Nowhere does it say there will be ANOTHER resurrection AFTER the Second Death!

To say the wicked who died the second death will be resurrected AGAIN and be accepted into the Kingdom is JUST PREPOSTEROUS!!

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: dialoguewithus

The lake of fire "is the second death" according to God's Spirit. And God promises to abolish death for all humanity. 1 Cor. 15:20-28.

It means that there will never be "dying" again. But those wicked will forever be ashes. Nowhere does it say there will be ANOTHER resurrection AFTER the Second Death!

To say the wicked who died the second death will be resurrected AGAIN and be accepted into the Kingdom is JUST PREPOSTEROUS!!

Thanks, Lysimachus. You beat me into driving the final nail in the coffin of Universalism. Was quite busy in the Catholic forum.

[dialoguewithus]

"It means that there will never be "dying" again." That seems to go with Rev. 21:4.

To me, 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 is talking about all those who are in Adam- vs 22: For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.

And I see three classes to be vivified-

vs. 23, 24: Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.

And "He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power" must occur after the conditions described in Rev. 21:24 and 22:5 no longer hold true.

vs. 25: For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. -This must occur after Rev. 22:1 no longer holds true. And Satan must be subjected, which won't occur while he is still in torment- 20:10.

vs 26, 27: The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.

-Death is the LAST enemy being abolished; since Satan is still in torment, he is still an enemy, so death has not yet been abolished. It still holds many- 22:15. Remember, the subject at hand is all who are mortal in (or through) Adam. Verse 27 starts with "For"; it is intimately linked with the previous verse. Paul specifies the One exception to the "all" who will be subjected to Christ; God. See also Phil. 3:21.

vs 28: Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all. -Christ also subjects Himself, to God Almighty. Before He subjects Himself, Ephesians 1:9-11 applies. So does Phil. 2:9-11. Once Christ subjects Himself to His Father, God will be All in all. Now Colossians 1:20 applies, the all being carried forward from verse 16 of that chapter, and the universal reconciliation, by definition a mutual harmonization, is described by Paul as God being "All in all". There will no longer be any rebellion, any sin, any death, any government other than God's; no more kings besides the One, no more need for a cure, no more curse, no one left outside the divine blessings. God will seek until He finds every lost soul as is revealed in the threefold parable of Luke 15. Christ will take away the sin of the universe, as declared by John the Baptist. Having justified all, and since He wills to save all and since nothing is impossible with Him, He will restore all.

Romans 5:15: But not as the offense, thus also the grace. For if, by the offense of the one, the many died, much rather the grace of God and the gratuity in grace, which is of the One Man, Jesus Christ, to the many superabounds. There's only one way that the gratuity in grace for the many who are dying in Adam can superabound; death must be abolished for them, without exception. Anything less and "superabounds" would be exaggeration as well as a lack of foresight on the part of the One powerful to save!

(One more interesting point from a previous post, is how the apostle Paul seems to change Hosea's prophecy, where Hades is mentioned, to a more suitable exclamation of victory once death is finally abolished for all mankind. This makes perfect sense, because at that point, Hades will have long ago ceased to exist- ever since the Great White Throne judgment. Compare Hosea 13:14 with 1 Cor. 15:55. Apparently this distinction is not brought out in every NT manuscript, but I did want to mention it.)

[Samie]

Will the wicked be ultimately saved as the Universalist claims or will they be destroyed forever and ever?

Psalm 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

[rodgertutt]

#76 - DIVINE JUDGMENT - DORA VAN ASSEN

"All of God's judgments are corrective measures that counteract, and also cooperate for the eventual good and reconciliation of all through Jesus Christ the Saviour of the world.

God never judges in vengeance for vengeance sake, but only for ultimate rehabilitation. He has His perfect timing to bring forth ultimate good for all. Thus many divine judgments are postponed until iniquity comes to the full (Gen. 15:16).

All must experience human failure and total depravity to the full in order to appreciate salvation when God eventually sets all things right throughout the whole universe (Isa. 9:26; and Phil. 2:10,11).

[rodgertutt]

Will the wicked be ultimately saved as the Universalist claims or will they be destroyed forever and ever?

Psalm 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

The age following The Great White Throne Judgment is sometimes called 'the age of consummation,' or 'the age of Jubilee,' or 'the age of the New Heaven and New Earth.'

By the time that age has ended, all will have been saved from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.

A snippet from THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY

“Only as one sees God’s Plan of the Ages do they see the beauty of God’s Program for the redemption of the race.

Heb. 11:3 should read, “Through faith we understand that the ages were planned by the Word of God.” The ages will collectively end. A literal translation of Heb. 9:26 is, ‘But now, once for all, with a view to the end of the ages, has He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.’

Throughout the eons there is sin and evil, condemnation and death. At the end of the eons all will be justified (Rom. 5:18,19), and all will be reconciled through Christ’s blood (Col. 1:20).

GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME

THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE

http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER

In the memoir of the author it is written, “He found no quietude, until, by a candid and prayerful examination of the Bible, he became fully satisfied that ‘God will have all men to be saved,’ and that ‘He doeth according to His will.’ His change of opinion was soon noised abroad, and produced a great disaffection in many of his former friends.

Here is a snippet from the book.

“The reason why I do not conceive that “forever and ever” doth intend endless duration is because I find the words as often used for times and periods that must have an end, as you find them used for the misery of the wicked. You bring three passages which are all that are to be found in the whole Bible where they are used in that sense; I shall now invalidate those evidences for endless damnation by bringing an equal number of texts where you will allow the words are used in a limited sense. Is. 30:8; Jer. 7:7; Jer. 35:5.

These passages are as many and as strongly expressed as those which you brought to prove endless misery; and yet nothing can be more evident than that they cannot intend endless duration. The words do not necessarily imply that the wicked shall never be delivered from their sins and consequent suffering.

Now if the words “forever and ever” signify without end, then there is a contradiction that cannot be reconciled, but only understand them as the ages of the ages, (as indeed they ought to be rendered), and the whole difficulty vanishes at once.”

[dialoguewithus]

Psalm 9:5, Concordant Literal Version: You rebuke the nations; You destroy the wicked; You wipe out their name for the eon and further.

"Forever and ever", wherever you might find it in the Bible, is a MISTRANSLATION. Will Satan be in torment "forever and ever"? Rev. 20:10. No; he will suffer for the remainder of the "millennial" eon and during the eon of the eons, when the new earth with the tree of life exists, where the kings rule with Christ. Christ's rule ends "For He must be reigning UNTIL He should be placing all His enemies under His feet." 1 Cor. 15:25.

1 Corinthians 11:19 (CLV)

For it must be that there are sects also among you...

Perhaps there is strong and convincing evidence (or so it seems) for each of the 3 main theories of human destiny to be found in the Bible, so that each one can believe what he is capable of regarding God and will be sufficiently fearful in order to inspire obedience.

Regardless, we must all try our best to get along, my siblings, for God is love and they will know we are Christians by our love.

[rodgertutt]

#77 - GOD'S UNFAILING PLAN REVEALED IN THE EONS – DORA VAN ASSEN

"The whole universe will feel the impact and glory of the cross as it takes away the sin of the world. This expression of God's influence, power, and love will continue to shine out of His own heart until all come under His sway; saved, purified, changed, and drawn back into Himself.

None can escape the loving and corrective judgment of the Father. Nothing shall be lost or wasted. The true light is shining more and more unto that perfect day when all shall be understood – God reaching His own ultimate plan, the great cycle of love completed; God All in all, everything in everybody. This is true love in the full expression of the cross."

[Lysimachus]

They're not going to change. They're going to keep plowing through like a speeding train headed for destruction, and their conductor is none other than the Arch-nemesis.

I'm pretty confident that they have repeated the same verses they quoted earlier at least 6 or more times. They never address the arguments. They just drag on with weary long rambles that amount to nothing.

[rodgertutt]

#78 - THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIJAH – PAUL MUELLER

"Babylonish religion would have us believe that everything will end when this age concludes; however, God is not the least bit influenced by man's religion since He already determined that His redemptive plan involves the ages beyond this present age. In the age of the fullness of times, all things in the heavens and on earth that have not yet been gathered into Christ, will then be gathered into Him (Eph. 1:8-10).

The will of God has been positively affirmed in this matter, for Paul wrote of God, 'Who will have all men to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth,' (1Tim 2:4). The Lord is omnipotent and shall perform all that He has purposed concerning all mankind, 'Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient time the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE' (Is. 46:10).

[dialoguewithus]

The second concept that we are going to examine is the time honored tradition of man's "Free Will". I propose to demonstrate that God has bestowed upon man the dignity of "choice", NOT "Free Will". Free Will to me implies a self-determinate sovereignty. If man DOES NOT posses this self- determination, than his will IS NOT FREE, for it is subject to the control and influence of one or more outside and/or inner influences. Also, if man has a "Free Will", then I contend that Satan, a being FAR greater in power and glory than man, must also most certainly have a "Free Will". If you hold the foregoing statements to be true, then I assert that we do NOT have ONE supreme, sovereign GOD, but rather THREE Sovereign, Independent, Self- determinate Beings who fit our theological definitions of "gods". Consider the ultimate implication of this position. If a puny creature like Man can resist, contradict, and thwart God's will, then surely Satan can do likewise. If this is true, than God IS NOT in control of the universe no matter WHAT word tricks you may pull out of your theological bag !! If God does NOT have ultimate and absolute control over the universe and all that is in it, what assurances do you or I have that He can really accomplish that which He promises ?? How do we know after we get to "Heaven" that sin may not break out into the universe again ?? What confidence do we have that Satan might not escape from the Lake of Fire and seduce some other world into sin ?? Whatever your opinion on this subject may be, God's Word most certainly DOES NOT support such a concept.

http://www.gtft.org/Library/jenke/aejenke.htm