Snippets from the hard copy Universal Reconciliation library of rodger

[rodgertutt]

They never address the arguments.

I'm not aware of any of your arguments that dialoguewithus did not address.

Do you have a specific one in mind?

#79 - "FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL" – K. ROSS MCKAY

"Because of their past teaching in the tradition of man, many will argue that man's own will shall prevent the fulfilling of God's own stated will. But according to God's word of truth wherein He cannot lie, He shall mercifully prove them to be wrong. Fortunately for mankind, God works ALL things, including man's destiny, after the counsel of His own will, and always, what His soul desires, even that He does (Job 23:13).

Believe it or not, God's intimate sovereign control is absolute and universal in scope (Job 3:7), even to the extent of man's delusions (2Thes. 1:11; Is. 66:4; Jer. 6:19). This is notably evident in the church's delusion – that God cannot successful influence the human will unless we let Him. But God has absolute control over the extent of success to which His word reaches and changes others, even to the extent of controlling what that word means to each individual (Is. 29:14; Matt. 13:11; 19:11).

It is a prophetic fact, predetermined, willed, divinely promised, and assured by the word of our faithful God Who in fact 'WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED' (1Tim. 2:4), This is true not only because 'HE IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN' (1Tim. 4:10), and not just of the first fruits whom He now specially causes to believe, but also because of the truth that 'HE IS NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH or be rendered unfit for the ultimate pleasure of His will (Rev. 4:11; Eph. 1:5,9; Col. 1:19,20), for 'IT IS NOT OF HIM WHO IS WILLING, NOR OF HIM WHO RUNS, BUT OF GOD (Rom. 9:16).

[dialoguewithus]

1 Cor. 15:22 “For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.”

What does this mean? Does “vivified” mean “resurrected”, without any necessary reference to immortality? (Jn. 5:28, 29) Definitely not. First, the two “alls” must be the same group of people; to suggest otherwise is to twist the verse to make it fit a certain preconceived theological mindset.

Nevertheless, the conclusive PROOF that when all are vivified in Christ, they are made immortal is this: Not all Christians will be resurrected- 1 Thes. 4:17. Therefore, to be vivified CANNOT signify to be resurrected. The contrast is apparent; For even as, in Adam, all are dying…” means that all are mortal, for as we just mentioned, NOT ALL will die. Likewise, “…thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.” This means that all of those who, in or through Adam, are mortal, THUS ALSO, in or through Christ, shall be made immortal. In Adam we are dying, and later, in Christ, we are NOT dying.

Thus: for that reason, therefore, in this way.

God makes it abundantly clear; in the same way that we became mortal (through nothing in ourselves, but rather in the person of the first Adam), THUS ALSO (through nothing in ourselves, but rather in the person of the second Adam) we become immortal.

[dialoguewithus]

In John 12:32, in signifying by what death He was about to be dying (v.33), Jesus said, 'And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself.' I have been told that the Greek word for 'draw,' actually means 'drag.' Is this correct?

The word in question, in John 12:32, is helkuoo. It is best rendered by the English "draw," not "drag." The idea is simply "to cause to move in a given direction" (e.g., John 18:10); idiomatically, in certain instances, we might say, "to reel in" (cp John 21:6,11). Another illustration would be that of drawing water from a well.

When applied to voluntary behavior, the idea is that of "bringing forth through incentive;" to attract (Acts 16:19; cp Acts 21:30; James 2:6). Whether one is drawn into sin, or drawn to virtue, one is still caused to move in the direction of, and eventually brought into, the behavioral sphere thus delineated.

The point is that "draw" speaks of effective, causative agency. Hence, this is as true of cases in which it is applied to acts of human behavior as of incidents in which it is concerned with the movements of inanimate objects. Therefore, "draw" is by no means a "weak" term, but a powerful expression.

It is not that "draw" means "drag;" it is rather that an agency which draws, is equally as effective as an agency which drags. When a man is dragged, he is moved contrary to his will; when a man is drawn, he is moved in correspondence to his will, according to the influences which cause him to choose as he does. Agencies which drag, determine the body; agencies which draw, determine the heart, from which spring the outflowings of life (Prov.4:23).

When one is "drawn in" to doing something, he is still caused to act as he does; he must still do what he, even if gently, is "drawn" to do--as much so as if he were "dragged" ("kicking and screaming") into so doing. It is simply that an agency which "draws," engages the will and instills the voluntary behavior which follows, in contradistinction to a power that merely compels outward acts--"dragging" them forth--without gaining the acquiescence of the will.

To "drag" suroo, means to "pull along by force." As applied to human behavior, such force has in view not simply the power of causative agency, but that of a causative agency which compels outward acts, ones to which the will, considered in the abstract, remains opposed (e.g., Luke 12:58). Unlike causal influence which acts upon the heart and changes the will--which draws forth corresponding, resultant behavior--causative agency which merely drags its objects, has in view either the burden which attends the pulling of inanimate objects (John 21:8), or the unwillingness as well which attends the compelling of outward acts (Acts 8:3; 14:19; 17:6; cf KEYWORD CONCORDANCE, p.82).

Thus we rejoice to know that while no one can come to Christ if ever the Father Who sends Him should not be drawing him (John 6:44), in due time, under God, Christ "shall be drawing all to [Him]self" (John 12:32).

J.R.C. http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex5.html#115a

[Samie]

What is the portion of the wicked according to Scriptures, will they inherit eternal life along with the righteous as the Universalist teaches?

Psalm 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

[Samie]

The Universalist teaches after the wicked are punished in the lake of fire, they will be reconciled back to God. Is this what the Bible teaches?

Psalm 28:3-5

Quote:

3 Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief is in their hearts.

4 Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.

5 Because they regard not the works of the LORD, nor the operation of his hands, he shall destroy them, and not build them up.

Don't be deceived by the Uiversalist. Be an overcomer.

[dialoguewithus]

John 12:37-40: Yet, after His having done so many signs in front of them, they believed not in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet, which he said, may be being fulfilled, "Lord, who believes our tidings? And the arm of the Lord, to whom was it revealed? Therefore they could not believe, seeing that Isaiah said again that He has blinded their eyes and callouses their heart, lest they may be perceiving with their eyes, and should be apprehending with their heart, and may be turning about, and I shall be healing them.

Concordant Commentary: Outside the Scriptures we hear much of human responsibility, and that those who reject the light deserve the judgment they have invited. This passage makes us pause. These men had heard the most powerful of all preachers and seen the most marvelous of all miracle workers, yet we are distinctly told that they could not believe. The reason given is that the Scriptures must be fulfilled. God's purpose demands a measure of unbelief as well as of faith. He locks up all in stubbornness that He may have mercy on all (Ro.11:32). To damn these men who could not believe with irretrievable and irrecoverable ruin is unthinkable of God.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/ConcordantCommentary/CC04_John.htm

[dialoguewithus]

John 12:32 is a wonderful promise, don't you think, Samie? Did you know that the word "peoples" or "men" is an added word? It's not in the Greek text, which refers to all without exception.

[rodgertutt]

Quote:

Psalm 28:5 Because they regard not the works of the LORD, nor the operation of his hands, he shall destroy them, and not build them up.

This is talking about the plight of the wicked on this earth.

It has nothing to do with their final state.

Their final state will be salvation because God wants ALL men to be saved (1Tim. 2:4), and sooner or later God always gets what He wants.

#80 - “MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND” – K. ROSS MCKAY

“Some believe that God’s satisfaction will be found in the eternal torment or annihilation of some of His creatures. But John was not speaking of a perverted pleasure when he penned, ‘Thou hast created all things and for Thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev. 4:11). God’s plan and purpose of the ages (Eph. 3:11) is to include perfectly executed and unique stages of progressive development resulting in the final restoration and reconciliation of all.

God has been and always will be in absolute sovereign control over His entire cosmic plan, even unto its ultimate consummation in perfection. His plan for all of humanity cannot fail. All of His working together of good and evil is in perfect harmony and balance. God’s love shall not fail. His absolute power and might insures His completing of all He has willed to do, both in our individual salvation, and in the universal salvation that is sure to come.”

[rodgertutt]

#81 - “ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME” – K. ROSS MCKAY

“WHO SHALL EVENTUALLY WORSHIP GOD?

Every creature Rev. 5:13

All flesh Isa. 66:23

All the ends of the world Psa. 22:27

All the kindreds of the nations Psa. 67:7

All the isles of the heathen Zep. 2:11

All the nations whom Thou hast made Psa. 86:9; Rev. 15:4

All the earth Psa. 66:4

The whole earth shall be filled with His glory Psa. 72:19; 97:7.”

[Samie]

John 12:32 is a wonderful promise, don't you think, Samie? Did you know that the word "peoples" or "men" is an added word? It's not in the Greek text, which refers to all without exception.

Yes it is wonderful, for ALL without exception. And you teach that it will find fulfillment after the eon of the lake of fire? No, sir; v33 refutes your contention:

John 12:32-33 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

I had told you time and again that the drawing, the atoning, the justifying, the reconciling, the saving from sin, were all done for EVERYONE on the cross.

[rodgertutt]

I believe that everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46

"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

See what other Greek scholars say about it too.

AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46

Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).

[rodgertutt]

#82 - THE GREAT WHITE THRONE

“The throne is white. May the One Who will be seated upon it keep us from painting it black. The judgment is viewed in the light of its outcome. If it leads to eternal conscious torment for all who stand before it as orthodoxy demands, then the throne is black and an outrage on justice and a heartless exhibition of fiendish cruelty.

It is only when we see that the outcome of this judgment is universal reconciliation (Col. 1:20), that we can really acknowledge that the throne is white. It is only when we limit the actual infliction of pain and penalties to the judgment era that we are able to appreciate the righteousness of God’s throne.

The judgment is as varied as the individual. It is as different as their acts. Some will suffer severely, some slightly, and all according to their deserts. But there is no reason to prolong this time to infinity. It is preparatory to their reconciliation.”

[Samie]

The Universalist teaches there is still hope even if a man dies wicked. Does the Bible agree?

Proverbs 11:7

Quote:

When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust men perisheth.

[dialoguewithus]

Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?

The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).

And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.

How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).

It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the, fifteen chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.

The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a

It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire.

[rodgertutt]

The perishing is eonian, not eternal.

Before God's plan for the ages of time has been consummated, everyone will have been saved from suffering and death.

We know this because God wants all to be saved (1Tim. 2:4), and sooner or later God always gets what He wants.

[rodgertutt]

#83 - PROGRESSIVE REVELATION WITHIN THE BIBLE – EARNEST L. MARTIN

“Salvation through Christ will extend outward to include all people (Rom 5:18; 1Tim. 2:4-6). Indeed it is far more than that. Salvation in Christ reaches out to embrace all intelligent beings in the entirety of the universe (Eph. 1:10; Phil. 2:10,11; Col. 1:15-20). The power of God to save is all encompassing. And when God sets out to accomplish a task (such as saving the world and the universe), He will be successful – God will always be successful!

No power in the universe, including Satan himself, can thwart God’s plan to save all those within His creation. And this is precisely where Progressive Revelation leads – it leads to the truth that God will finally save all!”

[Samie]

The Universalist teaches God WILL ultimately save all, including the wicked. So God WILL be the Savior of ALL men. But what does the Bible say?

Quote:

KJV 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who IS the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Yes, not will be, but already is the Savior of all men. On the cross, all had been saved form sin, reconciled to God, forgiven from all sins, drawn to Christ, sanctified, justified. The Universalist mistakes these acts of God to be still in the future. Mistaken belief.

[dialoguewithus]

Yes, Samie, God sees the end from the beginning and for Him, all are living (vivified).

[dialoguewithus]

Mistaken belief: God is the Savior of all men. On the cross, all have been saved form sin, reconciled to God, forgiven from all sins, drawn to Christ, sanctified, justified; but in spite of all this and in spite of God's will to save all, He will annihilate most because He doesn't save us alone; it's a cooperative effort- we need to save ourselves in the final analysis. In other words, God is the Savior of all in name only; He only really saves a few.

[dialoguewithus]

Mistaken belief: God isn't "the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers", He's the Savior of believers and "offers salvation" to the rest, including the millions who never even hear about the offer.

[dialoguewithus]

Mistaken belief: It is only through our own obedience that we will free ourselves from the results of Adam's disobedience; Christ's obedience isn't the heart of the plan of salvation.

Mistaken belief: God imposes perdition on all, with no regard to personal choice, but He must get our permission to save us from what was imposed on us.

[dialoguewithus]

Mistaken belief: Death will prove more powerful than Life. Christ won't really "be discarding him who has the might of death, that is, the Adversary" (heb. 2:14). And even though "For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary" (1 John 3:8), his act at the Tree of knowledge will have eternal consequences for most of creation, for death will continue forever for them.

[dialoguewithus]

Mistaken belief: Even though God's power to save knows no limits (Matt. 19:25, 26) and He wills all to be saved, He will inexplicably give up on millions and have no recourse but to annihilate them. Death will be victorious for most of mankind.

[rodgertutt]

#84 - THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS

“Evil begins with God and is a necessary part of His plan. It is the method He uses to accomplish His purpose. Usually when man works evil he sins because His motives are wrong, but this is not true of God for His motive is always to produce good. God uses the forces of evil to bring about good.

The teaching that sin and death are eternal is a travesty of God’s character, for it presents God standing by in complacency while Satan introduces an evil that all but destroys the human race.

The purpose of evil is to establish a background for a display of God’s love and grace which we could never know apart from the experience of sin. Evil is a necessary part of God’s purpose to mold us and to fashion us in the image of His beloved Son. Evil is a problem only to those who fail to see God’s purpose in it and who refuse to believe that God will bring blessings to all mankind through His dealings with evil and sin. The forces of evil cannot continue beyond the circumference of God’s purpose in it. God always has control over the forces of evil and evil never has any power apart from the authority of God. God has complete control over Satan and all of his activities.

The teaching that sin is to continue eternally blinds our minds to an understanding of the purpose of evil. Those who have made the greatest progress in seeking out the revelation of the cross no longer consider evil to be a problem, for the cross of Christ will turn all the evil of sin into infinite good. God will do infinitely more than repudiate sin and abolish death. He will not simply restore the human race to the status of Adam in the garden.

Even if one person were to suffer endlessly or be annihilated because of Adam’s sin, the justice of God would be defeated. So the grace differs from Adam’s offence because it will accomplish far more than Adam lost. Then too that which resulted from Adam’s offense is temporary but the results of grace will be permanent. Grace more than meets the need for it exceeds the need by far. It is enough and to spare for it is a superabundance. And this proves conclusively that the ruin caused by Adam’s sin is overcome and more by the superabundance of grace.

Before the eons, before there was any evil, before there was any sin, God designated all the events that would make sure that not one would be trapped in the forces of evil, but that all would be delivered from death and sin. God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom.

To some evil will never cease, or so they believe. God is never able, or at least He never tries to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent. But the only freedom of man that the scriptures present is the freedom that comes through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus.”

[dialoguewithus]

Mistaken belief: While God urges us, in our mortal condition, to overcome evil with good, He, in His omnipotence, won't be able (or won't He be willing?) to do the same.