Can religion be categorized as a form of "delusional thinking?"

[Igakusei]

How much sleep have you lost, worrying that maybe the Muslims are right and Muhammad (PBUH) is actually the prophet of Allah, the one true God?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my guess would be almost none. But don't you see that if you had been born in Iran you would probably have spent exactly as little time worrying about whether the Christians are right? To deny this is to deny the experiences of the countless millions belonging to other religious that have come into contact with Christianity and left feeling exactly the same way you feel about all the other religions in the world. This ties back into my earlier point: If you think that God would have reached out to you and led you to his truth regardless of who your parents were or what country you were born in in a way that you would be receptive to, it is in direct contradiction to the very apparent observation that religions are continually splitting and fragmenting, and not converging on a common set of beliefs.

[CoAspen]

ClubV12 says that "critical thinking" is a philosophical lie, and that we can only rely on spiritual insight.

Why, then, do people who rely exclusively on critical thinking generally converge on the same sets of beliefs (see: science) while people who largely reject critical thinking in favor of spiritual insight often find themselves killing each other over their differences in opinion?

Very good question!!

[Igakusei]

Very good question!!

It's one that almost always gets ignored. It really is one of the biggest deal-breakers for me over the validity of Christianity. Further along the same lines, I cannot imagine an omniscient, benevolent God who would create people with the capacity for critical thought and then reveal himself almost exclusively to a select band of mostly illiterate tribesmen during the dawn of civilization, demanding that honest rational inquiry be subverted in favor of accepting the claims of said mostly illiterate tribesmen primarily on faith.

Religion paints doubt and skepticism in a highly negative light out of necessity, because doubt and skepticism are the best tools we have discovered in sifting truth from error. See last several hundred years of scientific understanding and technological achievements as evidence.

Faith is not a virtue, because it leaves people completely unable to discern between competing faith claims. As I am fond of pointing out, the counter-claim that the Holy Spirit guides us in doing this is easily demonstrated to be false given the existence of so many competing denominations who often disagree on fundamental, salvational issues. Only rational inquiry has proved in any capacity to reliably separate fact from fiction, which is why almost all religions actively suppress it. Celebrations of ignorance and fear of knowledge are hard-coded into the most fundamental stories of Christianity. What was the name of the tree Eve ate from again?

[CoAspen]

Iggy,

A different look at what SDA's belive....

Quote:

If your asking God for some miracle in your life and you are secretly harboring something in your life that you KNOW is wrong, you will only find deception and delusion.

, as taking this approach might make us look delusional depending on how it is interpreted. WE do believe that seeking God is the only way to removing any 'hindering secret', because if we had to be sinless, as could be understood from above statement, in order for God to listen than all is lost.

If one decides to read the Bible and accepts that there is a God, possibly or still in doubt, a sincere 'truth seeker' will be guided by God through though what we call, Holy Spirit, in finding the truth. It can be found on its own. Seeking out others can be of help, but that is not a requirement.

You are correct that looking around at other religions and trying to decide who has the truth will never work. Only an Individual can make that decision for them self. The direction of their life, how they treat others, how they talk, act, etc will some indicators of whether or not there is some truth in their belief. Actions speak louder than words. Only at the return of Christ, as SDA Christian believe, will the whole world 'know'.

Finally, One who is seeking will find God, each in his own time. All should be continual in their seeking/learning, never stagnant.

[phkrause]

So who are these illiterate people?? The Hebrews????? So maybe after my father spent 5 years in a concentration camp, actually three different ones, and all the rest of the Jews who survived are still illiterate to this day??????? I think most Jews today and yesterday, OT times, can out think anyone. Its because there relationship with God that they are thinkers, not because of delusional thinking.

[John317]

[John317]

...I also agree that anyone claiming to have the TRUTH is dangerous - ...

How does it make a person dangerous to believe the SDA church has the TRUTH in the Bible and in the writings of Ellen White?

[John317]

I think that in order to get to the heart of any matter spiritually it needs to be discussed and it needs to be looked at with preconcieved notions put aside

Would you agree that two of the preconcieved notions that must be put aside are the ideas that there is no Truth and that the Bible is not the inspired word of God?

[John317]

.... maybe the Muslims are right and Muhammad (PBUH) is actually the prophet of Allah, the one true God?

The Muslims are right that there is only one true God, but as Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe, there are also fallen angels, and Muhammed at first believed that it was one of these who communicated with him.

I believe it would be good for Christians to also study the Koran and compare it closely with the Bible. By the same token, all Muslims should study the Bible and compare it to the Koran. The Koran claims that the same God inspired both, but if people study them closely, they will see strong evidence that this is not true.

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

This ties back into my earlier point: If you think that God would have reached out to you and led you to his truth regardless of who your parents were or what country you were born in in a way that you would be receptive to, it is in direct contradiction to the very apparent observation that religions are continually splitting and fragmenting, and not converging on a common set of beliefs.

Many millions of people born in those non-Christian countries decide to worship the Christian God. I believe if a person in those countries is sincerely seeking for truth, God will lead them to it.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

...I also agree that anyone claiming to have the TRUTH is dangerous - ...

How does it make a person dangerous to believe the SDA church has the TRUTH in the Bible and in the writings of Ellen White?

There is a difference between claiming to have the truth and the people that believe the claims by that person.

I think its dangerous simply because it stops people from searching further.

I have to say, EGW give me the heebie jeebies and she always has. But most people like her do.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

I think that in order to get to the heart of any matter spiritually it needs to be discussed and it needs to be looked at with preconcieved notions put aside

Would you agree that two of the preconcieved notions that must be put aside are the ideas that there is no Truth and that the Bible is not the inspired word of God?

Yes and No.

I think that if you go into it believing that it is inspired you will not scrutinize it well.

If you go into it believing its a fairy tale you will not get the positive messages out of it that are there.

So what a person should do is read it with an open mind and then decide for themselves if they think it is divinely inspired or not.

[Igakusei]

So who are these illiterate people?? The Hebrews????? So maybe after my father spent 5 years in a concentration camp, actually three different ones, and all the rest of the Jews who survived are still illiterate to this day??????? I think most Jews today and yesterday, OT times, can out think anyone. Its because there relationship with God that they are thinkers, not because of delusional thinking.

I wasn't talking about present-day Jews. I was referring to the primitive origins of Judaism's roots.

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

I think that in order to get to the heart of any matter spiritually it needs to be discussed and it needs to be looked at with preconcieved notions put aside

Would you agree that two of the preconcieved notions that must be put aside are the ideas that there is no Truth and that the Bible is not the inspired word of God?

I actually started with the preconceived notion that the Bible was the inspired word of God. Putting all preconceived notions aside would indicate putting both the notion that it is as well as the notion that it is not the word of God aside. That's what I finally did, and within weeks the whole house of cards collapsed. Since then I have developed the belief that the Bible is not the inspired word of God, but it was never, ever a "preconceived notion."

I also do not and have never believed that there is no truth. My experiences are consistent with a rational universe that behaves in reasonably predictable ways, so I fully expect that there is a true history of the universe. My experiences have also demonstrated to me repeatedly that the scientific method is the most reliable way of elucidating that truth. Along the way, my experiences have also told me that "spiritual guidance" is a completely and totally unreliable way of elucidating truth, as it relies almost exclusively on faith, trust, and appeals to authority. Further, in my mind it has been thoroughly falsified by the observation that multiple people using the same method (and often starting from the same spot) can arrive at mutually contradictory conclusions. It's not a reliable method.

[Dr. Shane]

Can religion be categorized as a form of "delusional thinking?"

Since most of humanity is religious and has been as far back into ancient history as we can study, I would think the answer to this question would be quite obvious.

[Igakusei]

We're naturally curious creatures. Absent a rational and reliable method of discovery and imbued with the desire to explain the unexplained, the invention of religion is neither surprising nor unexpected. Even the comparatively sophisticated theology of your own religion has primitive roots in the polytheistic pantheon of Mesopotamian gods performing all the usual heavenly roles of fertility, war, and seasonal change. The OT still bears significant evidence of this early polytheism, although most of it was edited out.

Further, the fact that something is widely believed by those members of a species prone to copious amounts of cognitive biases and untrained in critical thought processes is not a significant selling point for me.

[Dr. Shane]

So the answer to the question then is "no". Belief in religion is both reasonable and logical. If it were delusional that would mean that the overwhelming majority of the world is delusional today and has been as far back into ancient history as we have record.

Quote:

the fact that something is widely believed... is not a significant selling point for me.

The world doesn't revolve around you. What is a selling point to you is entirely irrelevant. Who is trying to sell you anything?

[John317]

The OT still bears significant evidence of this early polytheism, although most of it was edited out.

What's your evidence that it was edited out the OT manuscripts?

Which OT manuscripts still contain it?

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

The OT still bears significant evidence of this early polytheism, although most of it was edited out.

What's your evidence that it was edited out the OT manuscripts?

Which OT manuscripts still contain it?

It becomes a lot clearer once you begin comparing the OT to other historical finds ranging from clay tablets to the dead sea scrolls, so understandably making a case for it using the Bible alone will never be very powerful.

But there are a number of references to the other gods in which the language used indicates that Yahweh was just one of many, and a few which indicate that Yahweh and El aren't even the same deity.

One example is Deut 32:8-9

“When the Most High (Heb. El-Elyon) assigned lands to the nations, when he divided up the human race,

he established the boundaries of the peoples

according to the number of angelic beings (Heb. Beni Elohim, literally "sons of god")”

“For the people of Israel belong to the LORD (Heb. YHVH);

Jacob is his special possession.”

English translations have generally translated Beni Elohim as sons of Israel, but that's not at all what Beni Elohim means. The implication in the original Hebrew is that El-Elyon, the chief Canaanite god, divided up the human race and assigned lesser gods to the different groups of people. The Israelites got Yahweh.

The position that monotheism evolved out of polytheistic roots is very widespread among OT scholars, so this isn't just a fringe idea thought up by some people who want to prove that the Bible isn't inspired.

Books related to the topic:

http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Biblical-Monotheism-Polytheistic-Background/dp/0195167686

http://www.amazon.com/Wrote-Bible-Richard-Elliott-Friedman/dp/0060630353/ref=pd_sim_b_7

http://www.amazon.com/Early-History-God-Biblical-Resource/dp/080283972X/ref=pd_sim_b_1

http://www.amazon.com/History-God-000-Ye...6985&sr=1-1

[cardw]

NON-religion can also be classified as delusional thinking...

and really.... non-religion is a religion...

This would mean that non-stamp collecting is an actual hobby.

This would mean non-baseball playing is a sport.

This would mean that non-piano players are actually musicians.

This would mean that non-sculpters are artists.

Because someone does not believe in something says nothing about what they do believe.

[BobRyan]

That was a great piece.

I think to a degree religion could be categorized as a form of "delusional thinking?"

Simply based on the fact that it is not something that can be proved, and is based on an unseen force that we can't explain.

I suppose atheists have "no other choice" given that they have "bought the farm" in their bet that there is no god and no lake of fire in Rev 21.

What else could they say about faith in God after going down that well? They are in "must-commit" status.

in Christ,

Bob

[Dr. Shane]

Because someone does not believe in something says nothing about what they do believe.

Well,,, it means they believe in themselves - which is often the case of professed believers. They profess to believe in God but their lives to not reflect the teachings of the religion they claim to believe in.

At its very minimum, religion provides the believer a moral map. Religion directs the believer on how to live their life. Those that do not believe in any religion must rely on self for their moral compass. Thus self becomes their god and their religion. The non-believer puts his or her trust in self - sadly too many professed believers are doing exactly the same thing.

[Dr. Waite]

There is only one God, Buddah is a lie, all other religions who do not worship the living God of the bible are a lie. There is no double standard, there is only one standard, the Creator of all things, the great "I am".

ClubV12, you are correct, there is only one true God (John 17:3). Jesus Christ never stated that God is a unity of three co-eternal persons. He always refered to "GOD" as his heavenly Father. Could the teaching that God is a unity of three co-eternal persons be delutional thinking?

[ClubV12]

One true God in three persons, I see the concept has eluded you. Could be a delusion on your part. :)

[Dr. Waite]

One true God in three persons, I see the concept has eluded you. Could be a delusion on your part.

ClubV12: Where is the plain "Thus saith the LORD" which clearly states in uncertain terms that "God is a unity of three co-eternal persons"??

[ClubV12]

Where is the text that says He is not?