Is a sin always a sin?

[M. T. Cross]

I am starting this here as to not take another thread off topic and to keep the religious talk out of Townhall as per Stans request.

Some quote for clarity

Drug felons are much more likely to be selling their food stamps for cash than any other group of felons. Welfare fraud is rampant. Foodstamp fraud is off the chart.

Would you steal to feed your family?

You can bet 90% of people will when faced with the choice of seeing their kids go hungry or comitting a crime. Recently a woman was sentenced to three years in prison for fraud while applying for food stamps. Her crime? Checking the box that said she was not a drug felon, when in fact she was. A mother, with hungry kids, doing what she thought she had to do to survive, lie to the Government. The end does not justify the means, there is NEVER an excuse to steal, lie or rob for a Christian, never.

As time comes to end and we enter the very last day events, when people can't buy or sell without accepting the Government decree's that go against Gods commandments,,,, what will you do? When your kids are hungry and they will remain hungry if you don't sign that form that says you accept the Government over God? What you will do is being decided today, in the little decisions you make as you go about your life, at home or work. The crisis will only reveal the character you are forming today, it won't change that character.

[M. T. Cross]

I seriously can not get my head around a God that claims to be the exact opposite of evil that also would ask you to starve innocent children - that had no choice but to be part of this world - because stealing is a SIN.

So my question is - IN YOUR OPINION is there a time when a sin is excusable?

[ClubV12]

Faith in God is the answer. Do you think He would literally let you and your children starve to death? He MIGHT!!! There are many martyrs who have suffered worse. History records that wives sang to their husbands as they burned at the stake. Peter was crucified upside down, Stephen was stoned to death. Abraham was asked to kill his son. The widow gave up her last bit of flour to feed the prophet, as she was instructed to do of God, then she prepared herself AND her son to die.

God gave His only Son to be mocked and die a horrible death. Does your son or daughter rank higher than the creator of this Universe?

To die is easy, to LIVE a sanctified life in harmony with Gods law, THAT is the tough part. If your starving because you will not be persauded to give up Gods law, the outcome is in His hands.

[M. T. Cross]

To die is easy

I love it when people that are alive say that.

Of all those examples of martyrs listed they were all adults except for the widow.

Could you honestly look into the face of a pre-teen child and tell them they had to starve because God wanted them too? You could still love and respect that God?

[BibleOnly]

I seriously can not get my head around a God that claims to be the exact opposite of evil that also would ask you to starve innocent children - that had no choice but to be part of this world - because stealing is a SIN.

So my question is - IN YOUR OPINION is there a time when a sin is excusable?

At the core, the issue is simple. God doesn't care if you steal, murder, whatever, if you are not a Christian. It simply does not change your position with Him. When you become a Christian, you're given a new heart, and a new standard of living ( that is, a way to live ). God's promise is never material wealth, but He does promise to provide the needs of the faithful. You can prove anything by a hypothetical, but a Christian has both God and the support of a church to stop their kids going hungry.

[M. T. Cross]

Oh I would hunt down an animal and find wild veggies well before stealing.

What I am saying is that I would see it much more wrong to starve a child than to steal it some food if the circumstance arose.

[BibleOnly]

Oh I would hunt down an animal and find wild veggies well before stealing.

What I am saying is that I would see it much more wrong to starve a child than to steal it some food if the circumstance arose.

I am in Australia. Our country was populated by people sent here for stealing bread because they and their families were starving. So, I totally understand what you're saying. Why not just grow your own food instead of looking for it wild ? We grow a lot of our own food here ( that is, me personally )

[12tribes]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Oh I would hunt down an animal and find wild veggies well before stealing.

What I am saying is that I would see it much more wrong to starve a child than to steal it some food if the circumstance arose.

I am in Australia. Our country was populated by people sent here for stealing bread because they and their families were starving. So, I totally understand what you're saying. Why not just grow your own food instead of looking for it wild ? We grow a lot of our own food here ( that is, me personally )

I am also in Australia, would be good if people could grow there own food. I also agree with club12 that the answer is faith cause not everyone can grow there own food.

Psalms 37:25

(25) I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

[ClubV12]

Should we live long enough, Christians WILL be tested on these very points and more, when the plagues begin to fall. Folks will have to make a choice between family, children, work, everything they hold dear, to follow God, or not. The Waldenses had to hide in the mountains, they saw family members tortured and killed. They saw their children die, but they would not recant their faith. History WILL be repeated for those who live through the last day events.

Dieing IS easy compared to living a sanctified life, the bible tell's us that. Though you deliver your body to be burned and have not love, you profit nothing. Love of God, FAITH in God, believing and doing to follow God, no matter what. Some people ARE so sincere and so "fanatic" they might even deliver themselves to be burned or killed. God does not ask us to do this, He asks us to LIVE and be His representative. Do not seek to be a martyr, if that is His will, it will come in due time. And when it comes, He will give you the strength to endure when it is needed. I DON'T have that strength NOW, but in faith I believe He will provide in the hour of my need. Not a moment before....

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Could you honestly look into the face of a pre-teen child and tell them they had to starve because God wanted them too? You could still love and respect that God?

No, and I wouldn't because I know the Christian God is not like that. If all other recources had been exhausted and that was the only way to find food, absolutely steal it! You are also correct that the 'hungry less' always have the 'solutions' because they are not in the 'hungry and poor' shoes. They also have a list they need to check off to make sure someone is really in need. That is known as going by the 'letter of the law' and not the 'spirit of the law', Gods Law. The former is mans law, but always attributing it to God.

It so sickening to see christians looking for 'ways out' instead of 'in to' helping! They need not deny, because simply reading any thread in the past on this issue, there is ALWAYS 'yeah, but...'! God does not get a fair shake!

(Last and final comment.....the topic is not good to continueing kind thoughts towards others )

[Woody]

I happen to know that God decides sometimes that it is better for us to sin. I've prayed for His strength to resist a sin - but He has refused the power. SO, I honestly have to assume that He needs to show to the Universe the full extent of sin - And He's chosen me to have to demonstrate just how terrible sin is.

[Igakusei]

Woody, how do you reconcile that with this?

Edit: And in the context of Matthew 7:10, how does this work into that equation?

[Woody]

I dunno Igakusei. Just found it was not true in my case. Can't speak for your's. I have more questions than answers . And I take the Bible as a whole and not isolated supposed promises or statements. I have to have a belief that is consistant throughout scripture and experience. I can tell you that I clearly have asked for help and God denied helping me to overcome sin. So, I can no longer be responsible. I must rely on HIS salvation for me and not how much sin is resisted through His power.

[ClubV12]

The basic question seems to certain around situational ethics, or as some Eyetalian dude once said, "The end justifies the means."

Christians should have a set of ethics that never vary. Don't steal, for instance, were done, game over, don't do it. There IS no situation where it can be justified, period. Throw some other moral codes in the mix, lieing, cheating, covetousness, etc. Stir briskly, bake at 350 and what you get are ten beautiful commandments that always apply.

[M. T. Cross]

All right then Club. Lets look at the hypothetical situation we have going on here.

If you let said child starve that is murder. A rather deprved way to murder someone as well.

So what do you pick, stealing or murder?

[BibleOnly]

I always find it pointless to discuss hypotheticals that assume God has no power.

[ClubV12]

Myself as well BibleOnly, and I don't care to get to deep into philosophy either as far as that goes. There are philosophical questions you can ask that can never be resolved and the conversation just goes round in circles.

At any rate, it is not murder Emptycross. Look at the widow and her son, they had no food. Rather than go out and steal some or committ some vice to secure some, she simply prepared herself and her son to die. Even in the face of what she thought was certain death, she obeyed the Lord. And He provided, but NOT before she had determined by faith to do what was right.

[phkrause]

I don't either Club and Bibleonly, but EC has an interesting point! And its not that hypothetical, it happens more often than we think. The problem is playing God and trying to judge the person. If we look back at Rahab we find a so called "hypothetical" do we not? How did God deal with that? Obviously we would have to pay the consquience's of our actions here on earth, but as far as God is concerned, we have no idea now do we? We could go on, there are other situations in the Bible where some lied to help God. We can judge and say well they lied, which they did, but I'm pretty sure they probably asked for forgiveness. Is that not how it works, we all make simular mistakes or sins, whatever you want to call it.

[phkrause]

Quote:

Could you honestly look into the face of a pre-teen child and tell them they had to starve because God wanted them too? You could still love and respect that God?

No, and I wouldn't because I know the Christian God is not like that. If all other recources had been exhausted and that was the only way to find food, absolutely steal it! You are also correct that the 'hungry less' always have the 'solutions' because they are not in the 'hungry and poor' shoes. They also have a list they need to check off to make sure someone is really in need. That is known as going by the 'letter of the law' and not the 'spirit of the law', Gods Law. The former is mans law, but always attributing it to God.

It so sickening to see christians looking for 'ways out' instead of 'in to' helping! They need not deny, because simply reading any thread in the past on this issue, there is ALWAYS 'yeah, but...'! God does not get a fair shake!

(Last and final comment.....the topic is not good to continueing kind thoughts towards others )

[olger]

If you could cause the Ten Commandments to blink off and on like a strobe light then yes there may be times that sin would not be sin. However, the law is not a semaphore curiosity, it is a permanent expression of God's government (Matthew 5:18).

[BibleOnly]

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

This is the difference between the OT and the New. In the OT, if you broke the law, it was broken and that was it. In the New, we're able to look for forgiveness in a way that the blood of goats and doves could never provide.

In that sense, the meaning of 'sin' needs to be explored, in the sense that it also says:

Hbr 10:26 ¶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Hbr 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

As in so many things in the New Testament, the difference has more to do with our heart than our actions.

[M. T. Cross]

I find it amusing that Club brought up the whole not being able to buy food in the end time and asked if I would steal to feed my kids.

Now however it becomes a hypothetical question?

Hmmm.

[BibleOnly]

Well, the whole 'can't buy food in the end time thing' is obviously an unworkable myth. NO-ONE on earth will give you food b/c you go to church on Saturday ? Why would they even do that ? How could they do it ?

[M. T. Cross]

Well, the whole 'can't buy food in the end time thing' is obviously an unworkable myth. NO-ONE on earth will give you food b/c you go to church on Saturday ? Why would they even do that ? How could they do it ?

I would give them food. I hate religious oppression. I can think of few things more vile. However since I would not succumb to worshipping who I told to on what day I was told to I would likely have to steal the food I gave the Sabbath worshipers.....

Yes I am being sarcastic. Mostly because I am amazed.

I am amazed at how starving my children would not be murder.

I am as I mentioned amazed at how it became hypothetical all of a sudden.

[BibleOnly]

Well, it was always hypothetical. The story they are telling is made up. They think it's real, but the Bible does not say any of it.