Is a sin always a sin?

[BibleOnly]

I would expect adventists to be somewhat spiritually competent but unfortunately they never are.

Here’s a news flash – God created Lucifer with no sin in him and he sinned anyway. He created Adam and Eve with no sin and they sinned too. He also created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil so that means he designed pain, suffering and death.

I’m not trying to play devil’s advocate but you can’t say that all good things come from God and all bad things come from Satan. Bad things come from God too.

Even our judicial system acknowledges this. A suspect may not have pulled the trigger but if he set the plan in motion then he’s still responsible.

So the next time you see that terrible thing on the news you need to ask yourself – why did God allow this to happen? and more importantly – what kind of God do we really serve?

This is all tired and old. The real question I'd ask, if you're so convinced of this, why are you here ? I am here because I believe in a living God, and I believe the SDA does not know Him, so I want to understand how they come to their beliefs. But, what do you have to gain ?

The Bible says that God creates good and evil, but He does this by defining what is good. Until we knew what was good, we could not tell what was evil. Adam and Eve were designed to fail because God has a plan that involves people choosing Him and also because He can only ever be righteous and it's not righteous to enslave people. It's quite tiresome to read atheists basically claim that because they don't think Gods way agrees with what they wish the world was like, there can't be a God.

[cheddar]

Cheddar,

There is a realization you are missing. Since God is truly good He created all beings FREE, that is to choose for themselves between rebellion to Him or to be with Him understanding that He is only for the good and happiness of His created beings.

Satan being the highest of the created beings got it into his heart that he should be equal to Jesus Christ whose name before Bethlehem was Yahweh of Hosts and the Father's name is Yahweh King of Israel. Of course then the total of all creation was done by Yahweh of Hosts and Satan's creator. Can the clay say to the potter, I want to be as great as you? Yahweh of Hosts because He is the creator of them.

This is where rebellion sprung up in the highest created being rebelling and bringing in contention because he a created being wanted to be equal to God. He became upheld in himself and men do the same today who make Satan their master.

Since sin, rebellion came in and so God in justice and righteousness must allow it to go on to the point of it's summit of where rebellion can go. We now are at that point and very soon now sin and rebellion will be ended once and for all eternity future.

A very short explanation but I am not a prolific writer.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

You didn’t answer the question – just gave more of the God is good and Satan is bad theology.

This is why your understanding of sin is so shallow and you have no answers for the grey areas of life.

The man who steals because he is famished or the man who kills to defend his family are good examples of people who would be condemned in your eyes but not in Gods.

What about the time when God sent his angel to kill 185,000 Assyrian troops in one night? I thought Satan did all the bad things and all the killing.

Here’s a place where God did the killing – or actually he sent his angel to do it, I guess he can keep the blood off his hands if the angel does his dirty work for him.

[BibleOnly]

The core issue with all your examples is that the unforgivable sin, is not becoming a Christian. If you're not a Christian, Mother Theresa and Hitler are no different in God's eyes, in terms of their final destination. That's not because He's unfair, it's because He's fair in the real sense. The sense that He can't give you something that has not been paid for.

[BibleOnly]

"And then when I found out that Sunday got its name from being the day that the pagans worshiped the sun-god on I knew that Sunday worship was not Christian."

That is a fascinating conclusion. Saturday is named after a false god too. So, where does that leave you ?

[12tribes]

"And then when I found out that Sunday got its name from being the day that the pagans worshiped the sun-god on I knew that Sunday worship was not Christian."

That is a fascinating conclusion. Saturday is named after a false god too. So, where does that leave you ?

All of the days of the week are named after Pagan gods

[BibleOnly]

Yes, precisely.

[jfe]

Hello. I don't want to sound like a self righteous prig, but when I became a Christian, Jesus promised to provide all of my worldly needs as long as I left myself in His care and control, and gave as much as I could to help others, and He has more than kept up His end of the bargain. Try it. You'll like it. For those unacquainted with God, and His Bible full of promises, If you would let your children starve rather than to do anything in your powere to prevent it, including steal, you shouldn't have children. jfe

[phkrause]

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

This is the difference between the OT and the New. In the OT, if you broke the law, it was broken and that was it. In the New, we're able to look for forgiveness in a way that the blood of goats and doves could never provide.

In that sense, the meaning of 'sin' needs to be explored, in the sense that it also says:

Hbr 10:26 ¶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Hbr 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

As in so many things in the New Testament, the difference has more to do with our heart than our actions.

That's not correct. In the OT they had the sacrificial system that God had setup for the forgiveness of sins and pointed to the death of Christ. In the NT when Christ died there was no more need for this, so now we can pray for forgiveness and have a personal relationship with him.

[The7thdayrest]

Quote:

At the core, the issue is simple. God doesn't care if you steal, murder, whatever, if you are not a Christian.

I do not agree with this statement, even if you are not a Christian...God still cares, God has unconditional love for everyone Christian or non Christian. either you sin or not christian or not God always cared about the choices you make.

[phkrause]

Cheddar,

There is a realization you are missing. Since God is truly good He created all beings FREE, that is to choose for themselves between rebellion to Him or to be with Him understanding that He is only for the good and happiness of His created beings.

Satan being the highest of the created beings got it into his heart that he should be equal to Jesus Christ whose name before Bethlehem was Yahweh of Hosts and the Father's name is Yahweh King of Israel. Of course then the total of all creation was done by Yahweh of Hosts and Satan's creator. Can the clay say to the potter, I want to be as great as you? Yahweh of Hosts because He is the creator of them.

This is where rebellion sprung up in the highest created being rebelling and bringing in contention because he a created being wanted to be equal to God. He became upheld in himself and men do the same today who make Satan their master.

Since sin, rebellion came in and so God in justice and righteousness must allow it to go on to the point of it's summit of where rebellion can go. We now are at that point and very soon now sin and rebellion will be ended once and for all eternity future.

A very short explanation but I am not a prolific writer.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I guess what he wants is a God that as soon as you sin, zap, your hit with lighting and your gone. In that senario there wouldn't be anyone alive. So now you have to ask is, why even create if your only interested in people having no choice just have robots?

[Dr. Rich]

Oh I would hunt down an animal and find wild veggies well before stealing.

What I am saying is that I would see it much more wrong to starve a child than to steal it some food if the circumstance arose.

Just buy my book called "Dumpster Diving".

[BibleOnly]

Quote:

At the core, the issue is simple. God doesn't care if you steal, murder, whatever, if you are not a Christian.

I do not agree with this statement, even if you are not a Christian...God still cares, God has unconditional love for everyone Christian or non Christian. either you sin or not christian or not God always cared about the choices you make.

This is now the topic of another thread. Briefly, we are not saved by works, if you're not a Christian, nothing you do can change where you are headed.

[cheddar]

I guess what he wants is a God that as soon as you sin, zap, your hit with lighting and your gone. In that senario there wouldn't be anyone alive. So now you have to ask is, why even create if your only interested in people having no choice just have robots?

No, that’s not what I want at all. What I want is a balanced picture of God’s character.

So often the attributes of Jesus in the NT are accepted and the attributes of God in the OT (also Jesus) are rejected.

It’s actually to the point today where God’s character is so wishy washy that he’s little more than a door mat who is always kind and forgiving and never says a cross word.

If God were really like that I don’t think I would like him much – I’m glad he’s not.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Oh I would hunt down an animal and find wild veggies well before stealing.

What I am saying is that I would see it much more wrong to starve a child than to steal it some food if the circumstance arose.

Just buy my book called "Dumpster Diving".

If I had to dumpster dive I would. But I live in a very small town, lots of wildlife really nearby, great soil for growing veggies.

I used to know this homeless guy that got some pretty good food in the city dumpster diving. He was actually pretty healthy.

[ClubV12]

When we flee to the mountains for our very lives in the Time of Trouble, "dumpsters" won't be an option. Trust in God is all ya got. Angels or ravens, your bread and water will be sure. For the wicked? Well, good luck with that, let the riots, stealing, murdering begin.

[M. T. Cross]

When we flee to the mountains for our very lives in the Time of Trouble, "dumpsters" won't be an option. Trust in God is all ya got. Angels or ravens, your bread and water will be sure. For the wicked? Well, good luck with that, let the riots, stealing, murdering begin.

So we can talk about that in this thread......... last time I did I was being hypothetical.

[ClubV12]

Dumpster aren't an option for those who are starving in Africa either. Point is, dumpsters, hunting, fishing, gardening, farming are a way to see this problem through the eyes of man looking for a solution.

While I understand it's important to be practical, as God would have us be, when faced with real starvation and no other option than stealing, would you? I wouldn't.

I can think of a bunch of situations where you could find yourself with only that option, steal or die. Time of Trouble is only one.

Soccer team on a mountain, wondering who to eat next, or stealing food. Miners trapped in a cave thinking about who to eat next, or stealing food. Men on a boat adrift in the ocean, nothing to drink, what you going to do? There are a 1,000 scenarios for this question. Is sin ALWAYS sin? Yes, it is, regardless of the circumstances or the "situational ethics" involved.

[phkrause]

No, that’s not what I want at all. What I want is a balanced picture of God’s character.

So often the attributes of Jesus in the NT are accepted and the attributes of God in the OT (also Jesus) are rejected.

It’s actually to the point today where God’s character is so wishy washy that he’s little more than a door mat who is always kind and forgiving and never says a cross word.

If God were really like that I don’t think I would like him much – I’m glad he’s not.

Is his character wishy washy because that's what you hear or is it wishy washy from your reading the Bible???? It seems to me that your listening to others and not what the Bible is telling you. I've been a SDA for almost 50 years and know of no true SDAs that believe that God is wishy washy. You need to read and decide for yourself not allow others to influence your image of God.

[BibleOnly]

When we flee to the mountains for our very lives in the Time of Trouble, "dumpsters" won't be an option. Trust in God is all ya got. Angels or ravens, your bread and water will be sure. For the wicked? Well, good luck with that, let the riots, stealing, murdering begin.

The scriptures you refer to have been fulfilled. There is no 'great trouble' that can be used as a buffer, the next big event is Jesus returning.

[M. T. Cross]

Dumpster aren't an option for those who are starving in Africa either. Point is, dumpsters, hunting, fishing, gardening, farming are a way to see this problem through the eyes of man looking for a solution.

While I understand it's important to be practical, as God would have us be, when faced with real starvation and no other option than stealing, would you? I wouldn't.

I can think of a bunch of situations where you could find yourself with only that option, steal or die. Time of Trouble is only one.

Soccer team on a mountain, wondering who to eat next, or stealing food. Miners trapped in a cave thinking about who to eat next, or stealing food. Men on a boat adrift in the ocean, nothing to drink, what you going to do? There are a 1,000 scenarios for this question. Is sin ALWAYS sin? Yes, it is, regardless of the circumstances or the "situational ethics" involved.

In any circumstance I would do whatever I needed to in order to see mychildren fed.

[ClubV12]

The next great event is indeed the 2nd coming. And just before His return the seven plagues will fall and the earth will be one big catastrophy after another. This time of trouble will purify Gods people and polish their character to be able to stand in the presence of a Holy God. While the wicked will call for the rocks and mountains to hide them from His glory.

Emptycross says,

"In any circumstance I would do whatever I needed to in order to see mychildren fed."

Sadly, I see that EC. Which god will you turn to in that time of need? The wooden Buddha who cannot walk or see, who is dead? Myself I will turn to the living God, the one true God and He will provide as He see's fit.

[CoAspen]

For me the first question would be, who is defining the sin! The 10 c's get alot added to them when they are interpreted by humans, depending on their point of view.

At one time in England's past there was a time when people and children were imprisoned for stealing bread. Things have changed quite a bit since then and that obviously no longer happens. How ever, my impression, up to now is that some on this forum believe that law should still be enforced. After all, stealing is a sin and one must be punished for it. It would be better to die than steal that 'loaf of bread'.

The religious leaders of Christ day would have no problem with that either. They had a quite extensive list of rules in order to not displease God. We know what Christs opinion of them were....something about 'whited sepulchers', a stone box full of bones. When the disciples walked through the fields of grain, not theirs, and ate the grain because they were hungry, not starving, did Christ castigate them for stealing, braking the law? No! But wait a minute! The 10 c's say 'Thou shalt not steal'. What goes here, Christ breaking His own set of rules?

We only have hard and fast 'rules' when it pleases us, all other times we do our best to explain them away. Maybe we should focus on the meaning of those 10 c's. Christ did that Himself when He said that there were 2 commandments, love for God and love for our fellow mankind. If we start with that premise we come into a deeper understanding of what God was trying to accomplish with a group of people who had been slaves in a cultural and religious background for generations, that was not what the original peoples had even believed in or a part of. They did what they were told and lived. God gave only 10 rules and they never seemed to understand the greater meaning until Christ came and showed by example and word what the real meaning of following God was all about.

Die and go to perdition for stilling a loaf of bread, is that the God someone wants to follow?

[Woody]

Quote:

Die and go to perdition for stilling a loaf of bread, is that the God someone wants to follow?

That's what Satan wants - NOT God.

[ClubV12]

You assume God will let you die of starvation, I don't!

It is not man's law that concerns me, it is God's law. He says, "Don't steal". Period. If your not stealing because you think it will make you righteouss and God will reward you in some way for your "holiness", you would have missed the point by a mile. Though you deliver your body to be burned, with thoughts of a reward and the righteousness you might garner as a result, what you really did was committ suicide!

If you refuse to steal, no matter what, because you love and trust God, He will not only give you the strength to endure what ever physical things may result from "starving" there WILL be a heavenly reward as well. He might even send the ravens to feed you, thats up to God, I will trust Him. He will give me the strength to do so when the time comes, not before.

The reason for NOT stealing is NOT some kind of heavenly reward. The reason should be to vindicate Gods law and character. He said it, I believe it, I will follow Him, unto death if required. What happens after that I trust to Him.

The disciples weren't accused of stealing, they were accused of "working" on the Sabbath day.

[Overaged]

I seriously can not get my head around a God that claims to be the exact opposite of evil that also would ask you to starve innocent children - that had no choice but to be part of this world - because stealing is a SIN.

So my question is - IN YOUR OPINION is there a time when a sin is excusable?

I am personally glad to see you delving into spiritual things EC; and it looks like you are searching and open to answers that make sense. I like your attitude, even when you are challenging.

I share your belief that God does not ask us to "starve innocent children."

In answer to your question here; I see sin as sin, and it always will be. I mean, really, who can change that? Not much anyone can do about it. Sin is sin; you can't make it not sin...

The problem I see here is two-fold.

1) Perhaps you are not asking the right question?

2) Is it possible that most of the responses so far have missed out on how God deals with "sin" and our imperfect responses to an imperfect world?

I see your question as possibly asking just how God would deal with someone who steals to feed their children. Or any number of other, similar offenses.

I think God will work with us wherever we are at. He will forgive; but He will always count sin, as sin.