Is a sin always a sin?

[ClubV12]

The will you steal food if your child is hungry remains a valid question. Would you? People all around the world face this exact question daily.

That whole concept of murder your child because you refuse to steal is completely off the wall and worse than hypothetical! It's not even a question worth discussing,,, moving on.

BibleOnly, the not being able to buy and sell is a biblical prophecy. Not being able to buy or sell includes food as well as houses. If you don't have the mark of the beast, you can't buy or sell, simple as that. When you can't buy food, would you steal it, you know for the poor starving children?

You over simplify the issue of the mark of the beast because you don't understand the theology. But it's not relevant in this thread anyway.

The issue here is simple, "situational ethics":

DOES the end justify the means? If it's OK to steal to feed your child, is it OK to steal food from another child to feed yours? Where do you draw the line? Would you use a gun and rob someone to steal food if your hungry?

God is no respector of persons, stealing is sin, period. Candy bar or machine gun at the bank, same.

[BibleOnly]

"You over simplify the issue of the mark of the beast because you don't understand the theology."

No, we've not discussed the depths of my views on this, because we've been stuck on your views, which basically means superimposing your obsession with the Sabbath over the top of what the Bible actually says. The fact that what you propose is ludicrous, would not matter to me at all, if the Bible said it. But, it does not.

[ClubV12]

The Sabbath and the mark of the beast are NOT relevant to THIS thread BibleOnly, please stay on topic.

The families with children who ARE starving and dieing RIGHT NOW have to address this question. Do I steal to get food? Will I kill? How far would I go? Canabalism? Very real questions...

[M. T. Cross]

I think that if I do let my child go without food and it dies that is murder Club. I see nothing hypothetical about that at all. Children need food to live. No food, no life.

No that is not the original question but welcome to the internet and message boards. Topics tend to expand and grow.

Your original question to me was off topic of the thread it was in as much as BibleOnly's is in this one.

[BibleOnly]

The Sabbath and the mark of the beast are NOT relevant to THIS thread BibleOnly, please stay on topic.

The families with children who ARE starving and dieing RIGHT NOW have to address this question. Do I steal to get food? Will I kill? How far would I go? Canabalism? Very real questions...

Well, I was not the one who brought it up.

I wonder how many people are starving, and are Christians, and don't have a church to support them, or their church is all in the same boat ? I guess, some. And I think it's silly for anyone living a comfortable life in the West to even pretend they know how they would deal with that circumstance.

[ClubV12]

Stealing food because you are hungry is RIGHT ON TARGET for this thread. It is exactly on point, is sin always sin. Yes, it ALWAYS is, regardless of the circumstances.

The end DOES NOT, CANNOT, ever justify the means. If you break one commandment you break them all. There is no difference between stealing and murder. The fact you would steal food, for whatever reason, says it all. You have no faith in God, you will take matters into your own hands, you do not trust Him, do not look to Him for a solution. You are spiritually dead if you know the spiritual law and make a specifice choice to ignore it. In such cases Jesus had a simple solution, "Let the dead bury their dead". He recognized the reality that some folks are spiritually dead and there's nothing He or anybody else can do about it. Dead is dead. Once you have decided to follow the Lord, put your hand to the plow as He calls it, what happens to the "dead" is no longer your concern. The Christians are to seek for the living, those who might be saved, those who have some inkling of heavenly things in their soul. Those that are the "walking dead", the spiritually dead are nothing more than food for worms.

So steal if you must, you are murdering yourself, you are committing spiritual suicide. Let the dead bury their dead....

[BibleOnly]

Again, unless you live in poverty, you have no ability to judge what you would do in that situation.

[cheddar]

Jesus already answered this question - he said that it's alright to steal when you're hungry and he gave an example.

Quote:

And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him; How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone? Luke 6:3,4

[12tribes]

Jesus fed Israel in the wilderness and what will happen in the future when God's people will not be able to buy and sell will they all go and steal or should they live by faith? If they do go and steal then it will not be said "here are they that keep the commandments of God".

[John317]

I happen to know that God decides sometimes that it is better for us to sin. I've prayed for His strength to resist a sin - but He has refused the power. SO, I honestly have to assume that He needs to show to the Universe the full extent of sin - And He's chosen me to have to demonstrate just how terrible sin is.

1 Cor. 10:13

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

James 1:13

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

In order for your statement here to be true, 1 Cor. 10: 13 and James 1: 13 must be false.

God has provived us with all the power we need to resist and overcome every temptation that comes to us. The problem is not a lack of power-- it is whether we want to resist and overcome sin.

If you knew your son would die if you committed the sin you refer to, would you still do it?

When we would rather die than sin and hurt Christ, we will stop the habit. The only solution is a genuine hatred for sin and a continual dying to self.

[Gerr]

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

This is the difference between the OT and the New. In the OT, if you broke the law, it was broken and that was it. In the New, we're able to look for forgiveness in a way that the blood of goats and doves could never provide.

Huh?What a strange notion! How then was the OT sinner saved?

There is NO difference between the OT & the NT as to how God dealt with sin and sinners.

ESV] | Ex 34:7 keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children’s children, to the third and the fourth generation.”

The whole sacrificial system was a visual demonstration of God's forgiveness!

ESV | Le 4:20 Thus shall he do with the bull. As he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this. And the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven.

ESV | Nu 14:18 ‘The LORD is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation.’ 19 Please pardon the iniquity of this people, according to the greatness of your steadfast love, just as you have forgiven this people, from Egypt until now.”

The gospel of forgiveness was conceived in God's mind in eternity past. See Eph 3:4,6,9,11; Rom 16:25

[Gibs]

Sin is the cause of all death hunger disease and wrong in the world. None of it is of God, put the blame where it belongs, on the great destroyer, Satan and his evil angels who work with him to bring death, disease, suffering, hunger, wars and killings big time.

Satan became the God of this world when he wrested it from Adam. In Adam's giving in to sin he lost it to Satan. All God can do now is put certain limits on Satan or it would be much worse than it is. There wouldn't be any righteousness at all anywhere as all the righteous Satan would have killed. He is your killer.

No do not steal to feed that hungry child, beg until you move a heart that still has some love of God in it.

God is Love and He does no wrong and all will bow the knee in the end and confess His judgement of their case is true and just.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[cheddar]

I would expect adventists to be somewhat spiritually competent but unfortunately they never are.

Here’s a news flash – God created Lucifer with no sin in him and he sinned anyway. He created Adam and Eve with no sin and they sinned too. He also created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil so that means he designed pain, suffering and death.

I’m not trying to play devil’s advocate but you can’t say that all good things come from God and all bad things come from Satan. Bad things come from God too.

Even our judicial system acknowledges this. A suspect may not have pulled the trigger but if he set the plan in motion then he’s still responsible.

So the next time you see that terrible thing on the news you need to ask yourself – why did God allow this to happen? and more importantly – what kind of God do we really serve?

[Gibs]

Cheddar,

There is a realization you are missing. Since God is truly good He created all beings FREE, that is to choose for themselves between rebellion to Him or to be with Him understanding that He is only for the good and happiness of His created beings.

Satan being the highest of the created beings got it into his heart that he should be equal to Jesus Christ whose name before Bethlehem was Yahweh of Hosts and the Father's name is Yahweh King of Israel. Of course then the total of all creation was done by Yahweh of Hosts and Satan's creator. Can the clay say to the potter, I want to be as great as you? Yahweh of Hosts because He is the creator of them.

This is where rebellion sprung up in the highest created being rebelling and bringing in contention because he a created being wanted to be equal to God. He became upheld in himself and men do the same today who make Satan their master.

Since sin, rebellion came in and so God in justice and righteousness must allow it to go on to the point of it's summit of where rebellion can go. We now are at that point and very soon now sin and rebellion will be ended once and for all eternity future.

A very short explanation but I am not a prolific writer.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BibleOnly]

Huh?What a strange notion! How then was the OT sinner saved?

There is NO difference between the OT & the NT as to how God dealt with sin and sinners.

Why did Jesus come in that case ? What did He achieve, if the salvation I have, is the same as what was on offer in the Old Testament ?

Hbr 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Hbr 10:1 ¶ For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Hbr 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Hbr 10:3 But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again [made] of sins every year.

Hbr 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

[Gail]

Why did Jesus come in that case ? What did He achieve, if the salvation I have, is the same as what was on offer in the Old Testament ?

Hbr 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Hbr 10:1 ¶ For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Hbr 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Hbr 10:3 But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again [made] of sins every year.

Hbr 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The sanctuary services were done in faith of a Saviour to come. If Jesus hadn't come (the anti-type to these types or symbols) or if He had abandoned His mission all of those OT people who trusted in the coming Lamb of God would have been lost as well as we.

[BibleOnly]

OK, so, when Jesus came, the people who lived before Him, were retrospectively saved, their salvation was not assured until Jesus rose again, but when He did, it worked backwards in time ?

Why did Jesus say that the Spirit could not be sent until He rose again, if His doing so would work backwards in time, too ?

[Gail]

I wouldn't say it in those words, I would rather say ratified what was done in faith beforehand. Just as the sanctuary offerings were presented to the Lord for acceptance. He was the real to those types.

Do you remember when Jesus said to Mary after His resurrection that He had not yet gone to His Father? He presented Himself as the perfect Sacrifice when He did. In the sanctuary the sacrifices were not only slain, they were presented to the Lord and applied. Today the shed blood of Christ is applied to our hearts. We accept the merits of His sacrifice on our behalf into our hearts by faith and it saves us and changes us through His Spirit.

That is not common thinking among Adventists, that is just what I've gleaned from my study of the sanctuary. Jesus fulfilled it all in detail. That is what is so astounding about why the Jews rejected Him. They were the depositors of this knowledge. They were so focused on their view of Him as the Messiah who would crush Roman oppression that in general they lost view of Him as their Saviour.

Not all did, though. Isaiah 53 is an excellent example.

[BibleOnly]

OK, I agree that Jesus fulfilled all sorts of types. But the Bible does not say the Old Testament folks were saved by Jesus. It says they were an example to lead us to Christ. It says:

Hbr 11:13 ¶ These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

They did not receive the promises, they could only see them afar off.

[Gail]

Just as we don't see the fulfilment of our salvation yet. We will see it when we actually get to the Kingdom.

We've seen only part of it- what Jesus did and what He is doing in us. We will ultimately see the end of it when He comes.

You need to expand your thinking a bit, cause the topic is BIG!

I'm sure that when all is over our understanding will get even larger than we could start to imagine here. As 1 Cor.13:9 puts it, we know in part. But all the knowledge man has ever had concerning salvation is rooted in Christ

[BibleOnly]

But Hebrews makes clear that they could not receive what a Christian does today. This is why Jesus came and died.

[Gail]

But Hebrews makes clear that they could not receive what a Christian does today. This is why Jesus came and died.

Their salvation was in faith. It was in hope of a coming Redeemer. Those who have Him in verity (the knowledge of the Cross and His resurrection) have that hope fulfilled.

This is how I think of it... hmm...

If you go to Matthew 11, you will find Jesus talking about John the Baptist. By this time John was imprisoned and no doubt people were wondering why Jesus hadn't shown Himself the Deliverer of Israel by freeing his cousin.

Even John had his doubts- v.2,3

But look what Jesus says of John in vv.4-15

There was no one risen from men who were greater than John. Yet he was to be least in the Kingdom of heaven. Why? Because although he was the Elias (Elijah) predicted in prophecy (v.14), the announcer of the Lamb of God, Saviour of the World, he would not live to see Jesus in His glory.

He would not live to see that Lamb upon the Cross. He dies without having received the fulfilment of the promise.

[Gail]

Add- He had the hope. We have the fulfilment of the hope in the death and resurrection of Christ. In that sense we are far more blessed than he was.

We are all just waiting for the best part- to see Jesus face to face :)

[BibleOnly]

Yes, that is what Hebrews says. They did not receive the promises, but they saw them afar off

[12tribes]

You spew out the same tired rhetoric that most SDA do.

I would expect adventists to be somewhat spiritually competent but unfortunately they never are.

Here’s a news flash – God created Lucifer with no sin in him and he sinned anyway. He created Adam and Eve with no sin and they sinned too. He also created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil so that means he designed pain, suffering and death.

I’m not trying to play devil’s advocate but you can’t say that all good things come from God and all bad things come from Satan. Bad things come from God too.

Even our judicial system acknowledges this. A suspect may not have pulled the trigger but if he set the plan in motion then he’s still responsible.

So the next time you see that terrible thing on the news you need to ask yourself – why did God allow this to happen? and more importantly – what kind of God do we really serve?

God could have programed everyone not to sin but, that would not be love. Do you have children? That can help you understand better