Is a sin always a sin?

[M. T. Cross]

First, Club yu are taking it in a new direction. I never said I would steal to feed myself, I said I would steal to feed my children it I had no other choice.

But you mention also that I may burn for stealing for my children.

Do you really think that I would be kept out of heaven for one sin?

[ClubV12]

I totally get the point about stealing for a "good reason", in this case for the poor children.

There is no excuse, there is no "good reason". Now each of us will have to determine what is and what isn't "stealing", but I'm assuming when we are "stealing" we know it. It is clear thats what we are doing. A "court" may or may not see it that way, doesn't matter. If YOU know, in YOUR heart, you are stealing, for whatever reason, it is sin. Sin cannot be justified under any circumstance, under any situational ethic.

[Stan]

Some will like this, some will not..

New International Version (©1984)

Men do not despise a thief if he steals to satisfy his hunger when he is starving.

http://bible.cc/proverbs/6-30.htm

There is a similar one about stealing to feed your family.... can not remember what the key word is.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

I seriously can not get my head around a God that claims to be the exact opposite of evil that also would ask you to starve innocent children - that had no choice but to be part of this world - because stealing is a SIN.

So my question is - IN YOUR OPINION is there a time when a sin is excusable?

I am personally glad to see you delving into spiritual things EC; and it looks like you are searching and open to answers that make sense. I like your attitude, even when you are challenging.

I share your belief that God does not ask us to "starve innocent children."

In answer to your question here; I see sin as sin, and it always will be. I mean, really, who can change that? Not much anyone can do about it. Sin is sin; you can't make it not sin...

The problem I see here is two-fold.

1) Perhaps you are not asking the right question?

2) Is it possible that most of the responses so far have missed out on how God deals with "sin" and our imperfect responses to an imperfect world?

I see your question as possibly asking just how God would deal with someone who steals to feed their children. Or any number of other, similar offenses.

I think God will work with us wherever we are at. He will forgive; but He will always count sin, as sin.

Challenging? Good sir I am not only challenging, I demand satisfaction!

I think the question I asked fits in with #2 of your post. Which leads me too agree with your statement there.

See I see it this way. If we are gods children, and he takes that responsibility seriously, then I think he would expect us to do no less. I think that if he is the God he is claimed to be, then I am pretty sure he can see the big picture and takes circumstances into account.

I would not ask this question in the case of "But I saw my buddies wife was so lonely cause he was ignoring her, so out of the goodness of my ever giving heart I just HAD to sleep with her"

[ClubV12]

Heres the problem, where do you draw the line? "Men" may not despise you for stealing to feed your children, but only YOU know in your heart when and if you crossed that line into sin.

How far would you take it to justify your actions? If you were one of those Soccer players stuck on the mountain, would keep food from someone so they would die sooner so you could feed the children? On the boat adrift in the ocean, what would you do to survive, or to feed the children? How far would you go, to do a "good thing"?

It's a slippery sloap once you start down that path. How many times would you do it? Every day?

When Jerusalem was under siege by the Roman army people were starving. Mothers and Fathers conspired to EAT THEIR CHILDREN! When you are truly, really starving, the heart is deceitfully wicked, you might SAY you are feeding the children, until the food runs out. Then you will feed yourself first, history shows that over and over.

When you give up your faith in God, you will kill to steal. God asked Abraham to do more than just let his son die of starvation, He told Abraham to kill him outright!

[BibleOnly]

The next great event is indeed the 2nd coming. And just before His return the seven plagues will fall and the earth will be one big catastrophy after another. This time of trouble will purify Gods people and polish their character to be able to stand in the presence of a Holy God. While the wicked will call for the rocks and mountains to hide them from His glory.

Emptycross says,

"In any circumstance I would do whatever I needed to in order to see mychildren fed."

Sadly, I see that EC. Which god will you turn to in that time of need? The wooden Buddha who cannot walk or see, who is dead? Myself I will turn to the living God, the one true God and He will provide as He see's fit.

So, then, the next big event, is the 7 plagues, and there's no real need to 'be ready' for Jesus until they come. So He comes, not unexpectedly, but after a huge worldwide event that will tell any Bible reader the exact time of His return.

I disagree. I believe that Revelation has been mostly fulfilled and is not all about a short period of history just before Jesus returns.

[Tom Wetmore]

Some of the comments here remind me of the story of a man stranded by a flood. His house was at close to the river and at risk of being surrounded by the rising waters. The neighbors were all evacuating and one offered the man a ride in the back of his pickup to the shelter on higher ground. The man relied he was going to stay, that he would be OK because God would take care of him. Well, the water soon surrounded his house rising to the cover the first floor, so he moved on up to the second story. The sheriff came by in a boat and saw the man sitting at the window and stopped to rescue him. The man declined saying God would take care of him. Soon the water forced the man to his attic and he had to cut a hole in the roof to get out on the top of his house. A rescue helicopter came and lowered a basket for him. And again he declined saying that he trusted God would take care of him. Well, the flood finally prevailed and the man was washed away and drowned.

When the man got to heaven he was pretty upset that God hadn't answered his prayers and let him drown. God looked at him and said, "I did. But you refused my help. I sent you a truck, a boat and a helicopter."

[ClubV12]

Consider the families in Africa right now, not hypothetical, it's real and real people are dieing. Who would you steal food from? Another starving family so their kids die but not yours? Would you force your wife to sleep with someone to "save the children"? Where would you draw the line?

BibleOnly, when the plagues start to fall, it will be to late to make that decision. Your either in or your out before you see it coming. As a "thief in the night" is really more applicable to when your personal probation will close. Your decision to follow God, or not, has been made. For any of us, that could come tonight, or tommorow. It will come for ALL mankind BEFORE the plagues start to fall.

[CoAspen]

You assume God will let you die of starvation, I don't!

It is not man's law that concerns me, it is God's law. He says, "Don't steal". Period. If your not stealing because you think it will make you righteouss and God will reward you in some way for your "holiness", you would have missed the point by a mile. Though you deliver your body to be burned, with thoughts of a reward and the righteousness you might garner as a result, what you really did was committ suicide!

If you refuse to steal, no matter what, because you love and trust God, He will not only give you the strength to endure what ever physical things may result from "starving" there WILL be a heavenly reward as well. He might even send the ravens to feed you, thats up to God, I will trust Him. He will give me the strength to do so when the time comes, not before.

The reason for NOT stealing is NOT some kind of heavenly reward. The reason should be to vindicate Gods law and character. He said it, I believe it, I will follow Him, unto death if required. What happens after that I trust to Him.

The disciples weren't accused of stealing, they were accused of "working" on the Sabbath day.

You are not addressing the issue of the fact that they were stealing!!!! Matters not that they were not accused. By the way I am not talking about any reward system, that would be a Santa Claus!! Your focus is still narrowly defined, just as the religious leaders of Christs day.

[ClubV12]

I don't see anybody, but you, accusing them of stealing CoAspen. In those times, in those conditions, stealing was not the issue. That was just the way society worked then. Now if they came day after day and started "harvesting" then yeah, at some point that would rise to the level of "stealing". But they weren't and it didn't. The issue was working on the Sabbath.

[M. T. Cross]

The next great event is indeed the 2nd coming. And just before His return the seven plagues will fall and the earth will be one big catastrophy after another. This time of trouble will purify Gods people and polish their character to be able to stand in the presence of a Holy God. While the wicked will call for the rocks and mountains to hide them from His glory.

Emptycross says,

"In any circumstance I would do whatever I needed to in order to see mychildren fed."

Sadly, I see that EC. Which god will you turn to in that time of need? The wooden Buddha who cannot walk or see, who is dead? Myself I will turn to the living God, the one true God and He will provide as He see's fit.

I'm not a Buddhist so no, and Buddha is not considered a God, but a master teacher.

[Overaged]

Challenging? Good sir I am not only challenging, I demand satisfaction!

I think the question I asked fits in with #2 of your post. Which leads me too agree with your statement there.

See I see it this way. If we are gods children, and he takes that responsibility seriously, then I think he would expect us to do no less. I think that if he is the God he is claimed to be, then I am pretty sure he can see the big picture and takes circumstances into account.

I would not ask this question in the case of "But I saw my buddies wife was so lonely cause he was ignoring her, so out of the goodness of my ever giving heart I just HAD to sleep with her"

Ahem; yes. I did spot a bit of that "demand" in your post. Now i will take a turn at demanding satisfaction.

Why did you draw the line at your buddy's wife like that? Does not that line you drew put back the one you erased for stealing to feed the hungry children?

Why would you be so cruel as to let the poor woman suffer through life feeling so lonely and rejected? Nobody deserves that, do they?

If it's wrong in the one case; why not the other?

Sorry if I made you wish you had your cane so you could whack me one with it - but then, I am older than you, and it is sin to abuse the elderly so you would have to have an equally good reason as in when you steal that sandwich to feed starving little junior down the street...

LOL; I just don't know what the reason would be. Am counting on your expert clarification.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Challenging? Good sir I am not only challenging, I demand satisfaction!

I think the question I asked fits in with #2 of your post. Which leads me too agree with your statement there.

See I see it this way. If we are gods children, and he takes that responsibility seriously, then I think he would expect us to do no less. I think that if he is the God he is claimed to be, then I am pretty sure he can see the big picture and takes circumstances into account.

I would not ask this question in the case of "But I saw my buddies wife was so lonely cause he was ignoring her, so out of the goodness of my ever giving heart I just HAD to sleep with her"

Ahem; yes. I did spot a bit of that "demand" in your post. Now i will take a turn at demanding satisfaction.

Why did you draw the line at your buddy's wife like that? Does not that line you drew put back the one you erased for stealing to feed the hungry children?

Why would you be so cruel as to let the poor woman suffer through life feeling so lonely and rejected? Nobody deserves that, do they?

If it's wrong in the one case; why not the other?

Sorry if I made you wish you had your cane so you could whack me one with it - but then, I am older than you, and it is sin to abuse the elderly so you would have to have an equally good reason as in when you steal that sandwich to feed starving little junior down the street...

LOL; I just don't know what the reason would be. Am counting on your expert clarification.

Cane Wars - sounds like a new reality tv show

Well, if buddies wife is so lonely, she could try talking to her husband for starters. In the end though she is an adult that can fix the problem for herself. 99.9% of the time my example would be more of an excuse because in reality it would likely be more true that I thought she was hot and wanted to fornicate with her. ( the language filters here make it difficult to make that make sense LOL)

In the case of feeding my starving kids, its not a selfishly based thing. Its a responsibility and love based thing. They are also children and do not have that choice for themselves.

[ClubV12]

Yeah, thats what those parents kept telling themselves while under seige by the Roman Army. "Look dear, if we really love the youngest child we should only eat the oldest child so the poor kid can live. And, you know, we need to eat to so we can have strength to protect him, because we love him so much. Besides, his brother will understand it's "for the children" when we eat him." So she recommends eating the neighbors kid this week and then next week their own....

NOT hypothetical, it really happened. No doubt in many more cases than just Jerusalem with cities under seige and the Armys plan IS to "starve them out"! It's the way war was done.

[M. T. Cross]

Yeah, thats what those parents kept telling themselves while under seige by the Roman Army. "Look dear, if we really love the youngest child we should only eat the oldest child so the poor kid can live. And, you know, we need to eat to so we can have strength to protect him, because we love him so much. Besides, his brother will understand it's "for the children" when we eat him." So she recommends eating the neighbors kid this week and then next week their own....

NOT hypothetical, it really happened. No doubt in many more cases than just Jerusalem with cities under seige and the Armys plan IS to "starve them out"! It's the way war was done.

Well maybe they should have given some thought to stealing.

[Overaged]

Cane Wars - sounds like a new reality tv show

Well, if buddies wife is so lonely, she could try talking to her husband for starters. In the end though she is an adult that can fix the problem for herself. 99.9% of the time my example would be more of an excuse because in reality it would likely be more true that I thought she was hot and wanted to fornicate with her. ( the language filters here make it difficult to make that make sense LOL)

In the case of feeding my starving kids, its not a selfishly based thing. Its a responsibility and love based thing. They are also children and do not have that choice for themselves.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Yeah, thats what those parents kept telling themselves while under seige by the Roman Army. "Look dear, if we really love the youngest child we should only eat the oldest child so the poor kid can live. And, you know, we need to eat to so we can have strength to protect him, because we love him so much. Besides, his brother will understand it's "for the children" when we eat him." So she recommends eating the neighbors kid this week and then next week their own....

NOT hypothetical, it really happened. No doubt in many more cases than just Jerusalem with cities under seige and the Armys plan IS to "starve them out"! It's the way war was done.

Well maybe they should have given some thought to stealing.

If I was there I would be quite likely to steal from the soldiers to feed my kids.

[ClubV12]

Maybe they stole the neighbors kid! "Nope, haven't seen little Johnny, say, how much does you other son weigh,,,, just wondering."

[M. T. Cross]

Maybe they stole the neighbors kid! "Nope, haven't seen little Johnny, say, how much does you other son weigh,,,, just wondering."

Really they should have, if there was nothing to steal, decided which parent would provide more meat and keep both kids alive.

If they killed junior to feed themselves thats just wrong.

However I think they should start with the family pet first, then the strays on the street. You have to look for alternatives to stealing and murder first. Lets be reasonable now.

[Overaged]

Maybe they stole the neighbors kid! "Nope, haven't seen little Johnny, say, how much does you other son weigh,,,, just wondering."

Parents should teach their kids to feed themselves during times of emergency - then it's not "stealing."

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Maybe they stole the neighbors kid! "Nope, haven't seen little Johnny, say, how much does you other son weigh,,,, just wondering."

Parents should teach their kids to feed themselves during times of emergency - then it's not "stealing."

Thats right. Thats why I have been teaching my kids that their mother would be much more tender than my busted up carcass.

[Overaged]

Yikes! LOL What have I started?

[M. T. Cross]

Yikes! LOL What have I started?

You have taken it from a "discussion" on sin to a culinary thread. Thats a trick I used to use when I was a moderator on the official Iron Maiden forum. I would post recipes in the middle of flame wars. I thought all that fighting might make people hungery.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Yikes! LOL What have I started?

You have taken it from a "discussion" on sin to a culinary thread. Thats a trick I used to use when I was a moderator on the official Iron Maiden forum. I would post recipes in the middle of flame wars. I thought all that fighting might make people hungery.

LOL; well see. You have a benevolent side to you!

That would be an interesting moderator job for sure.

Yes; you are correct. I do that little trick here a bit. It's my substitute for arguing and getting all wound up over nothing.

[M. T. Cross]

Well getting worked up usually does not solve anything.