Try This Testimony of Sabbath

[BibleOnly]

Thanks cheddar, for your usual insight and wisdom. Actually I referred to at least three scriptures in my commentary. Which is more than your basis, which is zero new testament scriptures and the assumption that 'everyone knew'.

The verses in Hebrews 4 are only ambiguous if you can't accept what they say. They are meaningless and deceptive, if God still requires Saturday worship alone.

"This even goes along with your tortured logic – you basically say that any day is acceptable so if someone wants to rest on the sabbath then what’s the problem?"

Paul says you can regard one day above another, or regard every day the same. If you want to have a special regard for Saturday, there's no issue. If you tell me that going to church on another day is the mark of the beast, and the reason I am not saved, THAT is the issue. As I've said before, your core issue is worshipping in Spirit and in truth, not what day you pursue whatever form of worship seems right to you.

[Q.E.D.]

There are those here who say they joined the SDA when they realised that Sunday was named after the sun, and therefore was worship of the sun. Which is silly, I agree.

The honest answer is, we do meet on Wednesday, but we also meet on Sunday, because it's the day people are most likely to not have other engagements. It's convenient, and when the Bible says that every day is the same, and that the Sabbath is a lifetime rest in God, there's no reason to give people a reason not to come to our church over something that means nothing.

"It's convenient"

Methinks that pretty well sums it up. . .

Heaven forbid that one should be inconvenienced by the Word of God. . .otherwise one might have to TRUST in God to sustain, protect and provide your every need.

Q.E.D.

[BibleOnly]

. . .

I've said time and again, if anyone could actually show that the Bible says God wanted me to go to church on Saturday, I would happily do it. In fact, it would not even be an inconvenience to me. What I meant was, when the church I go to was started, we chose Sunday on the basis that it's the day that's most convenient to people in general, especially people we'd seek to invite to come along. Why deviate over something unimportant ? It's exactly the same as this: Today is Xmas. I know it's a pagan tree worship ceremony that God did not tell me to keep. I know Jesus was probably born about 3 months ago. But, there is no harm in giving my kids presents, and just plain seeing no religious significance in this day, and being known as the person who talks about how God answers with evidence, not the guy who won't let his kids have Xmas, or goes to church on a weird day. It's about what matters, in terms of the Gospel I represent.

[BibleOnly]

And again, it doesn't make you more righteous to inconvenience yourself in ways God did not ask for. this is like a lite version of Catholics crawling over broken glass to show their penitence. God didn't ask for it, and He's not moved by it.

[cheddar]

The problem I have is that most Sunday churches refer to Sunday as the Lord’s day.

I grew up going to a Lutheran church and I was always taught that Sunday was kept in honor of the resurrection.

So the sabbath was for the Jews and Sunday was for Christians.

I went to church and Sunday school fairly often and we always studied lessons and stories from the bible and it was just implied that Sunday was correct and no one even questioned it.

I don’t have anything against the Lutheran church. I always had good memories from being there but after studying the bible for myself I feel that they are led by tradition not scripture.

[BibleOnly]

Well, that's fine. They are wrong. But you are also wrong. I was also brought up in a Lutheran church. Just because they are wrong, doesn't mean that you are right because you don't agree with them. By all means, argue against Sunday worship to people who believe it's their sabbath. I've made clear that is not my position.

[cheddar]

I'm going to try and be nice to you.

So let's clarify your position:

Any day is acceptable or no day is acceptable, all based on one verse from Paul.

I disagree.

You reject the 10 commandments and the sabbath.

I reject the 10 commandments but keep the sabbath and I have more than just Hebrews 4 to prove my position.

[BibleOnly]

"So let's clarify your position:

Any day is acceptable or no day is acceptable, all based on one verse from Paul."

No, that's about as far from my position as it gets.

Let me try again.

Jesus came to fulfil the law, which meant, for example that instead of not being allowed to kill my brother, I'm required to love him as myself. While this requires more, the blood of Jesus also means that instead of a law that is permanently broken if I break it once, I have room to ask for forgiveness if I start with the right attitude and still fail. Also, the infilling of the Holy Spirit makes it possible for me to live this way.

In this context, it's clear that the law was not done away with, but the nature of it has changed. The SDA makes much of the word 'remember' as in 'remember the Sabbath', but this is merely what the command was, a once a day week to observe. Jesus broke the Sabbath according to those around Him, but He pointed out the Sabbath was made to benefit man, i.e. that it was a concept that matters less to God than what man does, for whom it was given.

There are three whole passages ( not one verse ) from Paul that, in different ways, remind us that we don't have to value one day over another, that we are not to be judged by sabbath keeping, and that the concept of the Sabbath was a type to show us that Christ would eventually give us rest, rest that we can enter in to on any day, by being saved, and that we never leave, once we enter.

"You reject the 10 commandments and the sabbath."

No, I do not. The problem is simply that you seek a set of rules from God instead of principles to live by, and so you can't understand what I am explaining. I don't reject the 10 commandments. I don't kill anyone, I have no false idols, and I never stop resting in God, including on the Sabbath. What I don't reject, is the golden rule that Jesus gave to us.

"I reject the 10 commandments but keep the sabbath and I have more than just Hebrews 4 to prove my position."

You reject the 10 commandments ? really ? Then why do you keep the sabbath ? Because God told Israel to remember it ? When I've asked why the NT never tells me to keep the OT sabbath, I've been told, it's because they just all kept it ( which would be OK, if not for the three passages that tell me I don't need to ), or that God made the NT confusing so only smart people could be saved. I reject this. I do not reject the 10 commandments. I do not reject the Gospel. I do not reject the golden rule. I simply interpret it all differently to you. As far as I can see, some people with little understanding of the bible, worked out that Saturday was the OT sabbath and so started to keep it, and since then, the SDA is, by definition, those people able to come up with explanations for every bible passage that contradicts their belief. By definition, the people who found Hebrews 4 and understood that Saturday worship is not the 'power of God' or the crux of the Gospel, are not SDA anymore.

[Q.E.D.]

And again, it doesn't make you more righteous to inconvenience yourself in ways God did not ask for. this is like a lite version of Catholics crawling over broken glass to show their penitence. God didn't ask for it, and He's not moved by it.

Nice opinion. . . Methinks I will take the Word of God over your opinion.

1And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

13 Thou shalt not kill.

14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15 Thou shalt not steal.

16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Q.E.D.

[cheddar]

You reject the 10 commandments ? really ? Then why do you keep the sabbath ? Because God told Israel to remember it ? When I've asked why the NT never tells me to keep the OT sabbath, I've been told, it's because they just all kept it ( which would be OK, if not for the three passages that tell me I don't need to ), or that God made the NT confusing so only smart people could be saved. I reject this. I do not reject the 10 commandments. I do not reject the Gospel. I do not reject the golden rule. I simply interpret it all differently to you. As far as I can see, some people with little understanding of the bible, worked out that Saturday was the OT sabbath and so started to keep it, and since then, the SDA is, by definition, those people able to come up with explanations for every bible passage that contradicts their belief. By definition, the people who found Hebrews 4 and understood that Saturday worship is not the 'power of God' or the crux of the Gospel, are not SDA anymore.

This just shows that you like the majority of adventists can’t separate the sabbath from the 10 commandments.

Here’s lesson #1 creation.

In the garden of eden when the earth was new Adam and Eve kept the sabbath without the 10c’s.

Here’s lesson #2 Abraham

Abraham who was ‘justified by faith’ and called the ‘friend of God’ kept the sabbath without the 10c’s.

Here’s lesson #3 Paul

Paul the author of most of the NT who expounded the gospel of ‘righteousness by faith’ kept the sabbath without the 10c’s.

Three examples of sabbath keepers who were not legalists.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

And again, it doesn't make you more righteous to inconvenience yourself in ways God did not ask for. this is like a lite version of Catholics crawling over broken glass to show their penitence. God didn't ask for it, and He's not moved by it.

Nice opinion. . . Methinks I will take the Word of God over your opinion.

1And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

13 Thou shalt not kill.

14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15 Thou shalt not steal.

16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Q.E.D.

So, you don't keep the Golden Rule that Jesus gave, you keep the 10 commandments given to Israel instead ?

[BibleOnly]

This just shows that you like the majority of adventists can’t separate the sabbath from the 10 commandments.

Here’s lesson #1 creation.

In the garden of eden when the earth was new Adam and Eve kept the sabbath without the 10c’s.

[BibleOnly]

I'm going to try and be nice to you.

So let's clarify your position:

Let me do the same for you. My position is that God made promises in the Bible that involve a real experience with Him and instant conversation with physical evidence. Your claim is that the devil did this for me when I called on God, but that you have proof of God, because He's given you the day off. On what basis do you think that I would deny a real experience that is in the Bible, for the sake of a god who can be overcome by satan, and whose 'power' consists of natural rest and not spiritual ?

[Dr. Rich]

Those 'promisses' were/are conditional. They all are conditional just as salvation is conditional. God can't be your God unless you agree by totally obeying the terms He gave--to keep all ten commandments and follow Jesus--by reading and abiding in His words.

[Dr. Rich]

See, I fully expected this sort of reply. But, as far as I am concerned, Paul stated that we're not children of the bondwoman ( Sinai ) but the free ( Jerusalem ) and Hebrews makes absolutely clear why it is that the Sabbath is not a forced day of no natural work any more. I can see how the human mind tends to legalism, that's why God gave us His Law in a legalistic way to start with, if asked, that's what we would have wanted. But making the word 'commandment' in the NT always mean the 10, is the same as JW's making the word Lord always be 'Jehovah' in their bible. It's forced and it misses the point. Either you keep the golden rule, or you only keep the 10 commandments. Yes, I have chosen which of those I'd prefer to do, and whose child I'd prefer to be. :-)

Merry Christmas. It's Christmas morning in Australia.

Paul lied--it's just that simple! There are not two or more ways for salvation my friend--just one! It applies to everyone. The words of Jesus trumps the words of Paul every time!

[BibleOnly]

Hey Dr Rich. Your examples of Paul lying or contradicting Jesus were all very sad, I am sorry. I hope you have a happy Xmas day, however you view it, but, I really have no interest in talking to you about God, it really is pointless, as we disagree on so much as to have no common ground of discussion.

[phkrause]

The SDA makes much of the word 'remember' as in 'remember the Sabbath', but this is merely what the command was, a once a day week to observe. Jesus broke the Sabbath according to those around Him, but He pointed out the Sabbath was made to benefit man, i.e. that it was a concept that matters less to God than what man does, for whom it was given.

That's not true. What the forth Commandment means is, not that we observe anything, we come together with God on the Sabbath. Obviously are Christians 7 days a week and not one. People have lives everyday of there lives, we have families, we raise kids, we work. What God is only asking of us is to take one day and come spend it with me, that's all he asks. and he's asking that to be the day that he made Holy, not the day that the Pope or man made Holy.

[BibleOnly]

OK, I understand this is your rationale. But, it's still a natural one, justified by natural arguments. Hebrews 4 explains all of this.

Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.

Why were gentiles not told they needed to keep the Sabbath ?

[phkrause]

So why dud they for quite a few years?? Because Jesus did not come to change the 10 Commandments. He fulfilled, the rules and regulations and the man made laws.

[BibleOnly]

There is no biblical record of anyone keeping the Sabbath in the church after Jesus died. Jesus did not change them, that's just an SDA word game. I never said He did. I said He fulfilled them. And you avoided my question. When Paul was asked what parts of the law converted Gentiles should keep, he should certainly have nominated the sabbath, according to you.

It's Christmas where you are, shouldn't you be with your family ?

[phkrause]

It's Christmas where you are, shouldn't you be with your family ?

I am. :)

[Gibs]

Ac 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Ac 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Ac 17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

Ac 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Ac 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

Ac 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Ac 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Ac 17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Exactly, great post. Not only that but history shows us that. actually the Greek Orthodox church, if I'm not mistaken was the last Church to change from the Sabbath to Sunday. When working for Atlantic Graphic Services, we used to print for the Greek Orthodox Church in the Boston area, and it was in one of there books that they mentioned this. Not sure of the year though.

[BibleOnly]

Ac 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Ac 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Ac 17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

Ac 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Ac 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

So, if you read the whole bible, you can establish three things

1 - Paul regarded every day the same, and did not tell anyone to keep the Sabbath, ever

2 - Paul was happy to act like a Jew when amongst the Jews, to be all things to all men, so as not to cause offence for anything other than the Gospel's sake

3 - Paul gathered with the local people on the day they gathered to discuss scripture, in order to preach Christ to them.

I am not suggesting Paul was so obtuse and deliberately offensive that he followed people around on a Tuesday saying 'stop working, today is the day of salvation, you don't need ot keep the Sabbath day anymore, you can rest in Christ all the time'.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

It's Christmas where you are, shouldn't you be with your family ?

I am.

And is your wife saying 'get off that stupid computer for one day of the year and spend it with us' ? That's what my wife was saying, yesterday :-)