Try This Testimony of Sabbath

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

just because you think the "core SDA doctrines have failed the Bible test." I am quite fine with you thinking this way, because of what I have underlined in red above. Applied to this sabbath issue for this thread; I can't think of a better way to have online fellowship.

If God's truth didn't matter one way of the other.If believing anything I wanted as long as I used the Bible to justify it made no difference in anyone's life. If I wasn't convinced that God intended the Sabbath to be a blessing for all mankind. If I didn't think that the call to Sabbath sanctity was a part of God's last call to a dying world. If I was sure that the perpetuity of the 4th commandment was nothing more than a theological ping pong ball. Then I would agree with you,OA.

Doug; I believe all these things you say about the sabbath. try to read what I am posting a little slower. There is no threat to the Bible; no threat to the truth, by any honest examination thereof.

[BibleOnly]

Ahhh - but there you see the 'out'. You said major. It is my belief that there should be few 'majors'. Most of the stuff is little stuff and I find no problem disagreeing over the little stuff.

Well, if I strained, I would say that most people in my church probably don't believe in any form of evolution, but I know that evolution can be reproduced in a laboratory, which means it passes the scientific test. I don't believe life could happen at random, or that we're descended from slime, but I know that living things evolve. I can't think of anything else.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

just because you think the "core SDA doctrines have failed the Bible test." I am quite fine with you thinking this way, because of what I have underlined in red above. Applied to this sabbath issue for this thread; I can't think of a better way to have online fellowship.

If God's truth didn't matter one way of the other.If believing anything I wanted as long as I used the Bible to justify it made no difference in anyone's life. If I wasn't convinced that God intended the Sabbath to be a blessing for all mankind. If I didn't think that the call to Sabbath sanctity was a part of God's last call to a dying world. If I was sure that the perpetuity of the 4th commandment was nothing more than a theological ping pong ball. Then I would agree with you,OA.

Here's the core question. Why does the day that you go to church matter more than what you do there ? Why does making sure you do no natural work on a Saturday matter more than the question of how to know if you have the Holy Spirit or not, or examining the Bible to see how the Apostles knew ?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Neither does Paul state that the Sabbath has "moved" to "today" or how the Sabbath did not give rest (one wonders why God rested, sanctified and blessed something that He named rest but that didn't actually give rest? BTW what did it give?)

I think I understand here what you are trying to explain; however, this is the kind of idea that I feel gives the public some erroneous views on the sabbath.

The Sabbath does not give rest. The Bible doesn't say that. Due to a number of circumstances beyond my control; I have had some Sabbaths which were far more exhausting than even the hardest work days! So, no. The Sabbath, in and of itself does not impart rest at all! Our "rest" is given to us by Someone else; and our "rest" is not in the sabbath itself; it is always and only in Christ, and even the "Sabbath rest' that is "left" "for the people of God," is not just in the Sabbath; it is in Christ, who made the seventh-day Sabbath. "there remaineth a Sabbath rest' refers to rest in Christ, including on the seventh day, not because of.

There is a type of rest which results from obedience to the fourth commandment; but really, that rest is also in Christ; just as it would be on all points of obedience. The rest is always in Christ, not in the obedience thereof.

There are other titles that the Bible gives to the seventh day Sabbath in the Bible; such as "a sign between us and God." It would be good to compile a list of all the other descriptors the Bible uses for the seventh day sabbath. Might be quite revealing!

I agree 90%, but what you've said is not what BO meant.Taking the 7th day of the week and devoting it to ONLY non-secular things requires faith in Christ. that's why it's "left behind for the people of God". People of God first, Sabbath sanctity to demonstrate it. When God blessed the Seventh day and hallowed it" can we legitimately say that there is no difference in the day itself? Do WE then make the day holy by our works of faith or is the day inherently holy and our faith testifies to why it is? Those who attempt to attribute a "rest" to everyday of the week (unwittingly for the most part) attempt to undermine the authority of the One who kept it originally and set it specifically apart for His perfect Creation.

[BibleOnly]

I agree 90%, but what you've said is not what BO meant.Taking the 7th day of the week and devoting it to ONLY non-secular things requires faith in Christ.

[Overaged]

I ask again - do you do paid work on a Sunday, given that you think God ordered you to ? Do you keep the Golden Rule or just the Law ? Why did Jesus say He came to give rest, if all He had to offer, was the one day a week that they already had ? Why does worshipping on the right day matter more than what or who or how you worship ? Notice how I ask questions and you can't answer ? What does this suggest about the foundation of your faith ?

hey my friend; you forgot to tell the horses to slow down! I don't think there is anything wrong with Doug's "foundation;" just as I don't believe there is anything wrong with your's. Thankfully; our faith's foundation does not depend upon doctrinal agreement

Now; you are going to like this. There is a Bible verse which actually states this about our foundation...well, perhaps some would say it implies it:

"nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure; having this seal: THE LORD KNOWS THEM THAT ARE HIS..." (see 2 Tim 2:19)

[doug yowell]

Here's the core question. Why does the day that you go to church matter more than what you do there ? Why does making sure you do no natural work on a Saturday matter more than the question of how to know if you have the Holy Spirit or not, or examining the Bible to see how the Apostles knew ?

The core question is where you and I completely agree (awesome). "My Words, they are Spirit, they are life". ..."and He will guide you into all truth..." "Those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit AND in truth." Ps. 119 (I'd be dead if I tried to quote it all here}"Be doers of the Word (the OT)and not hearers only..." All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness..." Ad infinitum So the answer is that the Holy Spirit is only given to those who obey Him (Acts 5:32)This is true faith in action. and "without faith it is impossible to please Him." And Sabbath keeping by Gentiles is one of the things (not the only thing)that pleases God (Is.56).The Holy Spirit will never lead anyone to intentionally annul one of God's commandments.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

I agree 90%, but what you've said is not what BO meant.Taking the 7th day of the week and devoting it to ONLY non-secular things requires faith in Christ.

No, it requires faith in the Seventh Day Adventist Churches interpretation of the Bible.

I don't want to keep pointing out the thoughtlessness of your responses but you keep putting up stuff like this, just downright silly. Just a reminder that there were (and still are) thousands of Seventh-day Baptists,Pentecostals,Messianic Jews, and scores of other seventh day keeping denominations that don't require a Seventh-day Adventist Church interpretation of the Bible. Contrary to popular belief, we didn't invent this particular way of looking at the 4th commandment, we got it from the Baptists who were interpreting thru the Seventh-day Adventists Bible commentaries hundreds of years before they were written.

[BibleOnly]

"Those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit AND in truth."

And Sabbath keeping by Gentiles is one of the things (not the only thing)that pleases God (Is.56).The Holy Spirit will never lead anyone to intentionally annul one of God's commandments.

So how do you know you have the Spirit ? Why does no NT verse say that keeping the Sabbath pleases God, or is required ? How do you worship in the Spirit ?

You didn't answer me. Do you work on Sunday ? Why is the day you go to church more important than what you do there?

[BibleOnly]

I don't want to keep pointing out the thoughtlessness of your responses but you keep putting up stuff like this, just downright silly. Just a reminder that there were (and still are) thousands of Seventh-day Baptists,Pentecostals,Messianic Jews, and scores of other seventh day keeping denominations that don't require a Seventh-day Adventist Church interpretation of the Bible.

[doug yowell]

[i ask again - do you do paid work on a Sunday, given that you think God ordered you to ?

Another impossible question to answer?? Why do you continue to add the word "paid" to the question? Is it relevant or determinate of what God is referring to? So let's put the question to rest with an honest understanding of the work that is being referred to (paid is not in the text). Yes, sometimes I do work on Sunday.Sometimes for money,sometimes for the lack of money (I can afford neither garderer, painter, or general clean up person). God clearly gives me six days in which to take care of all MY own personal living needs and non-spiritual pleasures.Planting a garden, mowing the lawn,doing the laundry, grocery shopping, washing the car,ect...is work. He does not limit, however, my works of faith, to one single day. Yet it is clear that I must work (by the sweat of my brow) in order for God to bless and preserve me for that's what I was created to do.So God's order is for me to work (or not eat)and He allows me only 6 days to get it done."Six days you shall labor and do all your work...BUT the seventh day is... (not one of the other six).God's command to work is not originated in the 4th commandment but the commandment refers back to the commandment that God gave before He instituted the Sabbath (Gen.1,2)

[BibleOnly]

Another impossible question to answer??

[Woody]

Quote:

Either way, it's interesting that SDA members have nothing like a united belief, even on the topic that defines them.

Praise God we don't. To do so would be the same experience that Jesus found the Jews in. No thanks. I would not belong to this church if they told me what to do, how for to go and what to believe.

[BibleOnly]

I agree, the church should not tell people what to believe. The Holy Spirit should unite people in a common faith. That is my experience. The thing my church is best known for, is that everyone in our church speaks in tongues and has access to all the other gifts. If you went to our church convention, or a meeting, and asked 5 people what this means and where the bible says it, you'd get one answer.

[doug yowell]

Why does no NT verse say that keeping the Sabbath pleases God, or is required ?

The NT believers didn't have the NT they only had the OT. Some recorded teaching of a NT apostle or Jesus informing us of God's sudden change of mind might suffice as evidence of that change but there's none. Why should you think that the OT Scriptures, written by the Holy Spirit, would no longer be the Spirit speaking to us today? Why would God suddenly, without OT support or NT recording, abolish that which He Himself enjoyed, and designed for man's happiness BEFORE SIN ENTERED? God kept the Sabbath and declared it holy. He later spoke the same words in the hearing of more than 2 million people. He recorded on numerous occasions the fact that Sabbath sacredness was critical to an intimate relationship with Him. You answer,why should He need to reaffirm that with another command when Jesus had just demonstrated how to properly keep it? You answer, how is God believable when He calls for the (final)death penalty for Sabbath breaking on one day and telling us that He no longer cares on the next?

[Woody]

Our church goers all have access to the gifts also. But we don't all receive the same gifts. Makes things much more enjoyable. I would not go to a church with a bunch of robots that all had the same gifts.

[doug yowell]

I keep forgetting that the SDA is a loose conglomeration of people free to believe whatever they like, so long as they pay some lip service to the Sabbath. ]

That's no doubt true of some but the condition is not unique to SDA's. Every group of professing Christians has the same basic problem. Catholics,Baptists nondenoms, why even those who speak in tongues (now that's lip service!)have their own struggles with these people. Don't you agree?

[doug yowell]

Yes, I am sure lots of people make the same mistakes through fleshly readings of the Bible, and not having the Holy Spirit. I'm sorry if you thought I suggested otherwise.

Well, you did specifically punk SDA's.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Why does no NT verse say that keeping the Sabbath pleases God, or is required ?

The NT believers didn't have the NT they only had the OT. Some recorded teaching of a NT apostle or Jesus informing us of God's sudden change of mind might suffice as evidence of that change but there's none. Why should you think that the OT Scriptures, written by the Holy Spirit, would no longer be the Spirit speaking to us today? Why would God suddenly, without OT support or NT recording, abolish that which He Himself enjoyed, and designed for man's happiness BEFORE SIN ENTERED? God kept the Sabbath and declared it holy. He later spoke the same words in the hearing of more than 2 million people. He recorded on numerous occasions the fact that Sabbath sacredness was critical to an intimate relationship with Him. You answer,why should He need to reaffirm that with another command when Jesus had just demonstrated how to properly keep it? You answer, how is God believable when He calls for the (final)death penalty for Sabbath breaking on one day and telling us that He no longer cares on the next?

I think your last sentence is meant to be 'I answer'.

I know this chain of logic well. Chains of human logic is all the SDA has. I've heard them. It all falls over, though based on several things:

1 - three passages explicitly state that we don't need to keep the Sabbath. Only one says we don't need to circumcise. So, why is the one true and the three not ?

Gen 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which [is] not of thy seed.

Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

2 - There is a passage that tells Gentiles what parts of the Law they need to keep. It does not list the Sabbath. It's in Acts

3 - the whole point of many of Paul's letters, such as Hebrews, is the change that Jesus brought. He fulfilled the Law, and so no more sacrifice was needed. The logic you apply to the Sabbath could as easily apply to animal sacrifice. Because there was change, it is not at all wrong to think that Paul would have taken the time to remind us that we need to keep the Sabbath. 1 Cor 12-14 is three chapters telling us how to operate tongues in the church ( verses that the SDA does not obey ). Paul was like that, he couldn't log on to a forum and update his comments if people asked questions, so he was thorough.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

If Paul was not talking about the Sabbath, he would have explained that his writing here was not a reference to the Sabbath, but to other days that people observed.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

If Paul, in using the same Greek word that identifies the Saturday, did not mean the Saturday, he'd have been careful to point that out, so his readers would not make the grave error of not keeping the Sabbath.

If these passages did not exist, your whole 'it's never mentioned because it was never in question' argument might have some legs. But, the fact that it IS mentioned, in the opposite way to which you hope, means that if you are right, Paul would have made sure what he said was clear to people who read his words, not just people who had an entire bible and could study it all to come to a conclusion that is the opposite to what it says.

Again - why does it matter more to God what day you go to church, than what you do there ? Why did Jesus say God requires us to worship in Spirit and Truth ? How do you do that ? How do you know if someone has the Spirit ? How do you know if a baptised believer is still unsaved ?

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

I keep forgetting that the SDA is a loose conglomeration of people free to believe whatever they like, so long as they pay some lip service to the Sabbath. ]

That's no doubt true of some but the condition is not unique to SDA's. Every group of professing Christians has the same basic problem. Catholics,Baptists nondenoms, why even those who speak in tongues (now that's lip service!)have their own struggles with these people. Don't you agree?

People who speak in tongues are not a denomination. And no, where I go, we all agree on these fundamental things.

[BibleOnly]

Our church goers all have access to the gifts also. But we don't all receive the same gifts. Makes things much more enjoyable. I would not go to a church with a bunch of robots that all had the same gifts.

Well, that's kind of silly. How does the concept of having received of God's fullness, and coming behind in no gift, relate to the idea of robots ? The list of gifts is in 1 Cor 12. It doesn't relate to things like hospitality, or playing music, or any other random gift that people try to shoehorn in to these verses to escape from the real, supernatural gifts. If you can all prophecy, why is Ellen White such a big deal to you ?

[Woody]

Okay - Just an observation here BO.

You seem to place a lot of importance in looking to people and what they do and where they are at in their "personal" relationship.

My advice is to stop looking at others and focus on Jesus. Looking at others and their actions or inactions - will only bring you down. People will always fail. Only Jesus never fails.

Look unto Him.

[BibleOnly]

Okay - Just an observation here BO.

You seem to place a lot of importance in looking to people and what they do and where they are at in their "personal" relationship.

My advice is to stop looking at others and focus on Jesus. Looking at others and their actions or inactions - will only bring you down. People will always fail. Only Jesus never fails.

Look unto Him.

You're mistaken. I'm not sure why you think this. Where did this come from ?

[Woody]

Jesus Never Fails

Words & Music by: Gary Driskell

Featuring Shawn & Lee Ann and Tim & Bridget Dill

Verse 1

So many souls have tested Him throughout the course of time.

So many still reach out to Him with broken hearts and minds.

And every one of them will say,

Without exception that they find…

Jesus never fails...

Verse 2

Even in the days of old, He brought His people through.

And then He came to show His love and died for me and you.

Then He rose again to prove,

That every story has been true…

Jesus never fails…

Chorus

Jesus never fails. Jesus never fails.

You might as well get thee behind me, Satan

You cannot prevail, because Jesus never fails.

Verse 3

Sometimes this world brings trouble I find so hard to bear.

I know I could not make it without Jesus being there.

It’s so encouraging to know,

How ever deep we’re in despair…

Jesus never fails.

Verse 4

So what can I do to prove to you, tell me how can you deny?

No untold facts, no mysteries, it’s all so cut and dried.

On the witness stand of your life,

I’ll be the first to testify…

Jesus never fails!

Repeat Chorus

I know… Repeat Chorus

Tag

You might as well get thee behind me, Satan

You cannot prevail, because Jesus never fails.

Never fails…

[Woody]

Quote:

How do you do that ? How do you know if someone has the Spirit ? How do you know if a baptised believer is still unsaved ?

Don't concern yourself with OTHERS -

Look unto Jesus