Try This Testimony of Sabbath

[cheddar]

Paul never kept the Sabbath, there is not one Bible verse that says he did, post conversion, but there's at least 3 passages that indicate he plainly did not.

[BibleOnly]

Is there actually any old testament verse that says that the sabbath is the day that we should listen to preaching, or indeed, congregate in the way that we think of a church meeting ? I think you'll find there is not.

As I've said, you're going to keep assuming that the fact Paul preached on the day that people were accustomed to gathering to hear preachers, means that he felt this was the special day he needed to do that, but no bible verse says that.

[Gibs]

I believe if you study secular history that it will reveal Christians kept the Sabbath, seventh day one, until the edict of Constantine AD 321. Then is when a change was made that the world loved.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Q.E.D.]

Is there actually any old testament verse that says that the sabbath is the day that we should listen to preaching, or indeed, congregate in the way that we think of a church meeting ? I think you'll find there is not.

You know for once BibleOnly, you are right. I can't find that verse anywhere in the Old Testament!!!

But. . . Since when would you accept anything in the Old Testament as binding?

Even IF there was an Old Testament verse saying that "the sabbath was the day that WE should listen to preaching, or indeed congregate" you would instantly start to CRY and MOAN "Why THAT is part of the Old Covenant and WE are New Covenant Christains! THAT was NAILED to the cross. WE have been set free. . .We are not under bondage!"

Thanks for the intertainment and Happy New Year!

Q.E.D.

[BibleOnly]

"Then is when a change was made that the world loved."

Why would the world actually care when they get a day off work ? How does secular history define the Bible or change what it says ? Not ONE verse from Paul, even when he's on the topic, saying that the church needs to keep the Saturday. A number of passages that explain why we do not have to. That's all that matters, to me, and no, I'm not saying that Paul supersedes Jesus, Jesus never told us to keep the sabbath, either.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Is there actually any old testament verse that says that the sabbath is the day that we should listen to preaching, or indeed, congregate in the way that we think of a church meeting ? I think you'll find there is not.

You know for once BibleOnly, you are right. I can't find that verse anywhere in the Old Testament!!!

But. . . Since when would you accept anything in the Old Testament as binding?

Even IF there was an Old Testament verse saying that "the sabbath was the day that WE should listen to preaching, or indeed congregate" you would instantly start to CRY and MOAN "Why THAT is part of the Old Covenant and WE are New Covenant Christains! THAT was NAILED to the cross. WE have been set free. . .We are not under bondage!"

Thanks for the intertainment and Happy New Year!

Q.E.D.

Well there's two things here.

First of all, yes, the New Testament does fulfil the old, and the law is replaced by the golden rule. So, if the OT said that we need to congregate in this way in the OT, it would not prove we have to, in the New. It would still be the case that no NT verse says we need to keep the OT sabbath.

BUT, if you're saying we DO need to keep the OT sabbath, then it's worth working out if the OT sabbath is even what you claim it to be, and it appears it was not. It really was a day of rest, such as our society still observes for the most part, through the mechanism of a two day rest, aka a weekend.

[cheddar]

Is there actually any old testament verse that says that the sabbath is the day that we should listen to preaching, or indeed, congregate in the way that we think of a church meeting ? I think you'll find there is not.

Are you really saying that there's no biblical evidence for the Jews keeping the sabbath? Some things I just take as common knowledge.

What do you think that the Jews did on the sabbath?

Probably the same things that they do today:

Gather together in their synagogue, read the OT (tanakh) and pray to God.

[Q.E.D.]

Well there's two things here.

First of all, yes, the New Testament does fulfil the old, and the law is replaced by the golden rule. So, if the OT said that we need to congregate in this way in the OT, it would not prove we have to, in the New. It would still be the case that no NT verse says we need to keep the OT sabbath.

BUT, if you're saying we DO need to keep the OT sabbath, then it's worth working out if the OT sabbath is even what you claim it to be, and it appears it was not. It really was a day of rest, such as our society still observes for the most part, through the mechanism of a two day rest, aka a weekend.

You need a vacation. . .

Q.E.D.

[Gibs]

In the old testament it was "congregation" instead of "church" as is called today although we do use congregation some. Used 364 times in the KJV.

All flesh and angels all are to come and worship before Him and you can know they did then and Enoch revealed that on the Sabbath we worship God together with the Holy angels and here is a verse I'm sure isn't just the case til we get to Heaven.

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

All flesh don't now but be assured they will those who are of Him who are redeemed and that is one to think on. Kinda points to the idea that one ought to be doing it now.

I'm a gonna do it like He plainly says and that way I know I'm not condemned.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

BibleOnly,

In Hebrews 4, The "today" (David's day---a symbol of the New Covenant when Jesus would take the throne of David--the Davidic Covenant, or New Covenant) is being contrasted with Joshua's day.

Joshua's day and David's day has nothing to do with the Sabbath.

All you have to do is read Hebrews 3 to learn what "today" means.

[Lysimachus]

D. S. Farris nicely puts it:

"Hebrews 4:7, 8 compare the day (not a literal day: see Hebrews 3:7 – 19) of

Joshua with that of David. In Joshua’s day, the Israelites were invited into the gospel rest

that Abraham had experienced; the Israelites chose the bilateral path. David’s day was

another invitation to enter into the gospel rest. The writer of Hebrews—in looking at the

whole message of the book—has David’s day as being an example of the present

fulfillment of the New Covenant. In other words, the present Davidic covenant where

Jesus is both king and priest after the order of Melchizedek is another invitation for the

Israel of God to enter into the “Katapausis.”Hence, the New Covenant is the Everlasting

Covenant more fully recaptured."

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Is there actually any old testament verse that says that the sabbath is the day that we should listen to preaching, or indeed, congregate in the way that we think of a church meeting ? I think you'll find there is not.

Are you really saying that there's no biblical evidence for the Jews keeping the sabbath? Some things I just take as common knowledge.

What do you think that the Jews did on the sabbath?

Probably the same things that they do today:

Gather together in their synagogue, read the OT (tanakh) and pray to God.

I'm saying that there's no biblical evidence that the sabbath is what you claim it is. In fact, it was during the exile that Jewish Sabbath came to mean what you mean by the Sabbath. The bible says rest, not gather and listen to preaching. You're assuming they MUST have done what you believe they did, but does the Bible say it ?

[BibleOnly]

In the old testament it was "congregation" instead of "church" as is called today although we do use congregation some. Used 364 times in the KJV.

All flesh and angels all are to come and worship before Him and you can know they did then and Enoch revealed that on the Sabbath we worship God together with the Holy angels and here is a verse I'm sure isn't just the case til we get to Heaven.

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

All flesh don't now but be assured they will those who are of Him who are redeemed and that is one to think on. Kinda points to the idea that one ought to be doing it now.

I'm a gonna do it like He plainly says and that way I know I'm not condemned.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

OK, so we are now to be judged by new moons as well as sabbaths, is that what you take from Is 66 ?

The idea of 'doing what He says so I know I'm not condemned' is exactly what legalism is. Instead of 'take this attitude' it's 'here are the rules'.

[BibleOnly]

BibleOnly,

In Hebrews 4, The "today" (David's day---a symbol of the New Covenant when Jesus would take the throne of David--the Davidic Covenant, or New Covenant) is being contrasted with Joshua's day.

Joshua's day and David's day has nothing to do with the Sabbath.

All you have to do is read Hebrews 3 to learn what "today" means.

So, another day, does not mean another day, but, another age ? Still, Paul talks about entering in to His rest, which Jesus promised us. Why would He offer us rest, if all He had for us was the once a week off work we already had ? And if we rest in Him all the time, what does the Sabbath add to that ? How does it not fulfil the concept ?

[BobRyan]

The Sabbath will stand as long as God does and that is all eternity future is what I find. But I found a short video on this subject and here is the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzV_GSubxyc

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Thank you for sharing that.

Jesus said "if you Love Me keep My Commandments" - John 14:15 before the cross - and so also does God say that in the Ten Commandments where again He speaks blessing to those who "Love Me and Keep My Commandments". Ex 20.

But it is more than just obedience - it is also fellowship. Obedience is the response to Christ's Word by those who are already in fellowship with Him - and love Him.

Thus even the New Covenant shows us "The Law of God written on the heart".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

D. S. Farris nicely puts it:

"Hebrews 4:7, 8 compare the day (not a literal day: see Hebrews 3:7 – 19) of

Joshua with that of David. In Joshua’s day, the Israelites were invited into the gospel rest

that Abraham had experienced; the Israelites chose the bilateral path. David’s day was

In Heb 4 Paul points out that "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" -- it REMAINS for us going all the way back to Psalms 95 and even before. The Sabbath rest was available in all those ages and remains still to this day for the people of God.

Some choose to enter it - and others choose to rebel against the Law of God - refusing the New Covenant promise of the Law of God written on the heart.

This principle has been around since the fall of mankind.

As Christ said "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27.

And as we see in Is 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath - AND from new moon to new moon shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship".

Is it any wonder then that in Rev 14:6-7 we are told in the words of the 4th commandment to "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of waters".??

in Christ,

Bob

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

D. S. Farris nicely puts it:

"Hebrews 4:7, 8 compare the day (not a literal day: see Hebrews 3:7 – 19) of

Joshua with that of David. In Joshua’s day, the Israelites were invited into the gospel rest

that Abraham had experienced; the Israelites chose the bilateral path. David’s day was

In Heb 4 Paul points out that "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" -- it REMAINS for us going all the way back to Psalms 95 and even before. The Sabbath rest was available in all those ages and remains still to this day for the people of God.

Some choose to enter it - and others choose to rebel against the Law of God - refusing the New Covenant promise of the Law of God written on the heart.

[BobRyan]

When Jesus said "The Sabbath was made FOR MANKIND"" He did not say "For mankind to ignore" as if the blessing God designed FOR mankind in giving us His "Holy day" -- the "Holy day of the Lord" - is realized best when we ignore His word regarding that day.

There is no bible blessing for rebellion against the Word of God.

Rather "IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments" - is the consistent theme not only in Exodus 20 - but also in John 14:15

in Christ,

Bob

[phkrause]

And is your wife saying 'get off that stupid computer for one day of the year and spend it with us' ? That's what my wife was saying, yesterday :-)

Absolutely, LOL

Yes she was really bugging me earlier to get off. We went to my Mom's and had our Christmas dinner, than came back home around 4 I guess. So I've been on and off. She complains but she's on hers as much. LOL

Have a great trip, be safe and have a good time.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

And as we see in Is 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath - AND from new moon to new moon shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship".

So, again, we are to be judged in the new testament by our keeping of sabbaths and new moons then ?

In Romans 2:13-16 "It is not the hearers of the Law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge the secrets of all mankind".

And the New Covenant writes that law - in the heart according to Hebrews 8.

The statement you reference in Isaiah 66 speaks of the "New heavena and New Earth" that we find in Rev 21 -- and certainly Rev 21 is a time of the New Heaven and New Earth -- not the time of the Old Testament.

in Christ,

Bob

[BibleOnly]

When Jesus said "The Sabbath was made FOR MANKIND"" He did not say "For mankind to ignore" as if the blessing God designed FOR mankind in giving us His "Holy day" -- the "Holy day of the Lord" - is realized best when we ignore His word regarding that day.

There is no bible blessing for rebellion against the Word of God.

Rather "IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments" - is the consistent theme not only in Exodus 20 - but also in John 14:15

in Christ,

Bob

*sigh* you just don't get it, I can see that. The things of God are Spiritually discerned, I'm not saying you're stupid.

The rest of the passage makes it clear. And why did Jesus say He came to give me rest, if all He had was the Sabbath that man already had ? If Jesus made the law complete, and if He gave us rest in a new way, why does it follow that we may no longer have to do animal sacrifice, but we go to hell if we do any work on a Saturday ?

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

So, again, we are to be judged in the new testament by our keeping of sabbaths and new moons then ?

In Romans 2:13-16 "It is not the hearers of the Law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge the secrets of all mankind".

And the New Covenant writes that law - in the heart according to Hebrews 8.

The statement you reference in Isaiah 66 speaks of the "New heavena and New Earth" that we find in Rev 21 -- and certainly Rev 21 is a time of the New Heaven and New Earth -- not the time of the Old Testament.

in Christ,

Bob

You can't answer the question, I understand. Is 66 either does not apply to us, or tells us we need to observe new moons, you can't cut it both ways.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

And is your wife saying 'get off that stupid computer for one day of the year and spend it with us' ? That's what my wife was saying, yesterday :-)

Absolutely, LOL

Yes she was really bugging me earlier to get off. We went to my Mom's and had our Christmas dinner, than came back home around 4 I guess. So I've been on and off. She complains but she's on hers as much. LOL

Have a great trip, be safe and have a good time.

*grin* women - same the world over. Thanks, I am about to leave. Just dealing with some sniping from Bob before I go.

[Lysimachus]

The reason is because the Sabbath Day is a symbol, an expression, of our eternal rest in Christ. Paul is expressing the fact that Israel failed to enter into that spiritual rest, therefore, they could not keep the Sabbath right. This is why God was angry with their Sabbath keeping:

• 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; [it is] iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

  1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them].

  1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

  1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

  1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

The point is clear. The eternal "katapausis" rest existed even in the Old Testament. Therefore, it is impossible that the "katapausis" eternal rest in the New Testament "replaces" the Seventh-Day Sabbath in the New Covenant.

It was offered to them in the Old, but they failed to enter into that rest.

Read pages 5-7 very carefully:

http://www.hearingthetruth.org/chapter9.pdf

The eternal rest and the seventh-Day Sabbath are both being spoken about, as Paul is using the Sabbath as a symbol of our eternal rest. For example, Baptism is a symbol of our rebirth experience, but it is not our rebirth experience. It is a celebration of it, yet is still required.

The fact that Paul is bringing in the Seventh-Day Sabbath as a symbol of this eternal rest in Hebrews 4 is actually proof of the Sabbath's continued binding nature in the New Covenant, but he is now profoundly expanding on the Sabbath's meaning.

[BibleOnly]

"The point is clear. The eternal "katapausis" rest existed even in the Old Testament. Therefore, it is impossible that the "katapausis" eternal rest in the New Testament "replaces" the Seventh-Day Sabbath in the New Covenant. "

Where does it say that ? The Holy Spirit was unable to indwell people in the NT sense until Jesus died and rose again, and that's the reason why they did not have the same constant rest available to them.

" For example, Baptism is a symbol of our rebirth experience, but it is not our rebirth experience."

Wrong. Baptism is a symbol of the burial of the old way of life, not rebirth.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

"The fact that Paul is bringing in the Seventh-Day Sabbath as a symbol of this eternal rest in Hebrews 4 is actually proof of the Sabbath's continued binding nature in the New Covenant, but he is now profoundly expanding on the Sabbath's meaning."

I understand why you'd look to find that in those verses, but I don't believe it is there. Certainly, I think Paul was careful enough that if he was addressing the topic and meant to say that, he'd have said it explicitly. Just as he'd have said it to be clear when he told the church not to be judged by sabbath keeping, and that they were free to regard every day the same.