The 7 Last Plagues Are Post-Advent

[Samie]

Since for the last 4 days, there had been no response to my last posts in the two topics I started, after a two-day lively discussion that resulted in 48 replies for the Pure Gospel & 69 replies for the early Saturday morning resurrection of the Lord, I am starting this one.

I believe that the Bible teaches the 7 last plagues will be poured out AFTER, not BEFORE, the Second Coming.

Rev 15 tells us that the saints were already seen in heaven standing in the sea of glass and had sung the song of Moses and of the Lamb (Rev 15:1-4) when the 7 angels were given the 7 vials (vv 5-8) and commanded to pour the plagues on earth (Rev 16:1).

The 7 last plagues are the fulfillment of the wrath of God (Rev 15:1) and if they would be poured out before the 2nd coming then only the last day sinners will experience them and the multitude of sinners long dead can not. Clearly the Bible teaches the wrath of God is for all the ungodly (Rom 2:5-11).

Any comments, forum mates?

In Christ Our Righteous Judge,

Samie

[Gibs]

Luke says they are left for the eagles, buzzards so those left must be dead.

Jerimiah says the earth will have no man,

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Re 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Re 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Re 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Re 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Re 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Am 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

Am 5:19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.

Am 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Another question is, will the earth be a liveable place again untill the Lord makes it over again. Any fit to drink water? Any food? Any roads travable? Any houses standing? and on and on.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[miz3]

Since for the last 4 days, there had been no response to my last posts in the two topics I started, after a two-day lively discussion that resulted in 48 replies for the Pure Gospel & 69 replies for the early Saturday morning resurrection of the Lord, I am starting this one.

I believe that the Bible teaches the 7 last plagues will be poured out AFTER, not BEFORE, the Second Coming.

Rev 15 tells us that the saints were already seen in heaven standing in the sea of glass and had sung the song of Moses and of the Lamb (Rev 15:1-4) when the 7 angels were given the 7 vials (vv 5-8) and commanded to pour the plagues on earth (Rev 16:1).

The 7 last plagues are the fulfillment of the wrath of God (Rev 15:1) and if they would be poured out before the 2nd coming then only the last day sinners will experience them and the multitude of sinners long dead can not. Clearly the Bible teaches the wrath of God is for all the ungodly (Rom 2:5-11).

Any comments, forum mates?

In Christ Our Righteous Judge,

Samie

You are correct in this view Samie.

[Samie]

Luke says they are left for the eagles, buzzards so those left must be dead.

Jerimiah says the earth will have no man,

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Since for the last 4 days, there had been no response to my last posts in the two topics I started, after a two-day lively discussion that resulted in 48 replies for the Pure Gospel & 69 replies for the early Saturday morning resurrection of the Lord, I am starting this one.

I believe that the Bible teaches the 7 last plagues will be poured out AFTER, not BEFORE, the Second Coming.

Rev 15 tells us that the saints were already seen in heaven standing in the sea of glass and had sung the song of Moses and of the Lamb (Rev 15:1-4) when the 7 angels were given the 7 vials (vv 5-8) and commanded to pour the plagues on earth (Rev 16:1).

The 7 last plagues are the fulfillment of the wrath of God (Rev 15:1) and if they would be poured out before the 2nd coming then only the last day sinners will experience them and the multitude of sinners long dead can not. Clearly the Bible teaches the wrath of God is for all the ungodly (Rom 2:5-11).

Any comments, forum mates?

In Christ Our Righteous Judge,

Samie

You are correct in this view Samie.

Thanks, miz3. Praise & Glory belong unto the Lord Who is the Source of all wisdom.

[Gibs]

Samie,

The question to you is when Jesus comes and takes up the resurrected Saints and the living ones where is the place He takes them since this earth will be Satan's and his angels prison house for a 1,000 yrs. Can it be on this earth? The picture Jeremiah draws says not and with Satan and his angels? I think not.

He tells us this,

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Where He is now isn't this earth.

You may stay here if you want, but you won't know nothing about it for a thousand years.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

If you are implying that vv23-28 will occur after the 2nd Coming, when will vv29-31 occur?

Jeremiah 4:29-31:

29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.

30 And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.

31 For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

Your problem is that you are not realizing Types and Antitypes.

The context of the passage, though typically attributed to local Israel and Jerusalem, through divine inspiration foreshadowed the end of the world on an apocalyptic scale which never took place in Jeremiah's day. The immediate context calls for 1. ALL the cities of the earth be broken down (not just Jerusalem), 2. The heavens will be "black" with no sunlight, 3. No man, 4. The earth be without form and void.

You are violating Divine principles of hermeneutics by not ascertaining that the prophets, while speaking for their local time, were elaborating events which will take place on a global, apocalyptic scale.

For example....

Isaiah

13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

It says the day of the Lord will destroy sinners out of it. Is this not speaking of the Second Coming? If you take your logic to its furthest conclusion, we will have to conclude that the following takes place afterward:

13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

13:11 And I will punish the world for [their] evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

13:14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.

13:15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined [unto them] shall fall by the sword.

13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and [as for] gold, they shall not delight in it.

13:18 [Their] bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.

13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

13:20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

13:21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

13:22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in [their] pleasant palaces: and her time [is] near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

Or how about this?

Isaiah

66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

66:18 For I [know] their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, [to] Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, [to] Tubal, and Javan, [to] the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren [for] an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

66:21 And I will also take of them for priests [and] for Levites, saith the LORD.

Should we conclude that all these events, transpire after the second coming?

[Lysimachus]

Nahum

1:1 The burden of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.

1:2 God [is] jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and [is] furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth [wrath] for his enemies.

1:3 The LORD [is] slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit [the wicked]: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds [are] the dust of his feet.

1:4 He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers: Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth.

1:5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

1:6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

1:7 The LORD [is] good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.

1:8 But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.

1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

1:10 For while [they be] folden together [as] thorns, and while they are drunken [as] drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

1:11 There is [one] come out of thee, that imagineth evil against the LORD, a wicked counsellor.

1:12 Thus saith the LORD; Though [they be] quiet, and likewise many, yet thus shall they be cut down, when he shall pass through. Though I have afflicted thee, I will afflict thee no more.

1:13 For now will I break his yoke from off thee, and will burst thy bonds in sunder.

1:14 And the LORD hath given a commandment concerning thee, [that] no more of thy name be sown: out of the house of thy gods will I cut off the graven image and the molten image: I will make thy grave; for thou art vile.

1:15 Behold upon the mountains the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace! O Judah, keep thy solemn feasts, perform thy vows: for the wicked shall no more pass through thee; he is utterly cut off.

Chapter 2

2:1 He that dasheth in pieces is come up before thy face: keep the munition, watch the way, make [thy] loins strong, fortify [thy] power mightily.

2:2 For the LORD hath turned away the excellency of Jacob, as the excellency of Israel: for the emptiers have emptied them out, and marred their vine branches.

2:3 The shield of his mighty men is made red, the valiant men [are] in scarlet: the chariots [shall be] with flaming torches in the day of his preparation, and the fir trees shall be terribly shaken.

2:4 The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings.

2:5 He shall recount his worthies: they shall stumble in their walk; they shall make haste to the wall thereof, and the defence shall be prepared.

2:6 The gates of the rivers shall be opened, and the palace shall be dissolved.

2:7 And Huzzab shall be led away captive, she shall be brought up, and her maids shall lead [her] as with the voice of doves, tabering upon their breasts.

Do all these things happen after the Second Coming?

Let's get real Samie!

You're employing FALSE hermeneutical principles.

[Lysimachus]

Oh, and the 7 last plagues happen BEFORE the Second Coming!

Revelation is NOT written in chronological order!

[Kevin H]

Since for the last 4 days, there had been no response to my last posts in the two topics I started, after a two-day lively discussion that resulted in 48 replies for the Pure Gospel & 69 replies for the early Saturday morning resurrection of the Lord, I am starting this one.

I believe that the Bible teaches the 7 last plagues will be poured out AFTER, not BEFORE, the Second Coming.

Rev 15 tells us that the saints were already seen in heaven standing in the sea of glass and had sung the song of Moses and of the Lamb (Rev 15:1-4) when the 7 angels were given the 7 vials (vv 5-8) and commanded to pour the plagues on earth (Rev 16:1).

The 7 last plagues are the fulfillment of the wrath of God (Rev 15:1) and if they would be poured out before the 2nd coming then only the last day sinners will experience them and the multitude of sinners long dead can not. Clearly the Bible teaches the wrath of God is for all the ungodly (Rom 2:5-11).

Any comments, forum mates?

In Christ Our Righteous Judge,

Samie

Revelation was written in a literary style known as a chiasm where the most important point is in the middle and the two sides reflect each other, and John appears to have copied quite a bit from Rabinic writings that would develope into the Mishna and from popular theatrical plays from his day and using the same styles. The reason why the 7 last plagues is after Revlation 14 and 15 is because of the structure, not the chronology.

[Lysimachus]

Since for the last 4 days, there had been no response to my last posts in the two topics I started, after a two-day lively discussion that resulted in 48 replies for the Pure Gospel & 69 replies for the early Saturday morning resurrection of the Lord, I am starting this one.

I believe that the Bible teaches the 7 last plagues will be poured out AFTER, not BEFORE, the Second Coming.

Rev 15 tells us that the saints were already seen in heaven standing in the sea of glass and had sung the song of Moses and of the Lamb (Rev 15:1-4) when the 7 angels were given the 7 vials (vv 5-8) and commanded to pour the plagues on earth (Rev 16:1).

The 7 last plagues are the fulfillment of the wrath of God (Rev 15:1) and if they would be poured out before the 2nd coming then only the last day sinners will experience them and the multitude of sinners long dead can not. Clearly the Bible teaches the wrath of God is for all the ungodly (Rom 2:5-11).

Any comments, forum mates?

In Christ Our Righteous Judge,

Samie

Your logic is flawed. In Revelation 6, we have the second coming described when heaven opens up as a scroll and every mountain is moved out of place.

Revelation

Chapter 6:

6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Chapter 7

7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Revelation 6 describes the Second Coming. Then in Revelation chapter 7, John says "And AFTER these things I saw...." Saw what? Four angels holding back the four winds. But wait a minute, didn't the winds of strive transpire before the Second Coming? Wait a minute, God's servants have not been sealed yet!!!

Samie, your problem is that you are reading your Bible with literalistic, Dispensational, Futurist, JESUIT lenses.

Revelation is not a book of chronological order. One can only understand it when read in the Spirit, and by careful comparison to the other scriptures.

Jesus is coming back only ONE TIME, for ALL of God's Children.

Revelation 19:18 is clear that the fowls are not feasting on the flesh of SOME men, but ALL men!

Then right after that in chapter 20 we have the Millennium, where Satan is bound. Coincidence that the flesh of ALL men are being feasted on and then we have the millennium transpire right after?

I don't think so.

[Lysimachus]

You are correct in this view Samie.

In your dreams miz3.

[Samie]

Samie,

The question to you is when Jesus comes and takes up the resurrected Saints and the living ones where is the place He takes them since this earth will be Satan's and his angels prison house for a 1,000 yrs. Can it be on this earth? The picture Jeremiah draws says not and with Satan and his angels? I think not.

He tells us this,

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Where He is now isn't this earth.

You may stay here if you want, but you won't know nothing about it for a thousand years.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Yes, of course. When the Lord Jesus comes again, He will take the righteous up to heaven with Him, and then the 7 last plagues will be poured out upon the wicked. This is what the Bible teaches as shown in my OP.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

You are correct in this view Samie.

In your dreams miz3.

I do not have to put human theories into/on the what the Bible actually says.

It is clear that you and the SDA Church .org have to put human theories and human thoughts on the Bible so it fits what you have preconceived as the outcome.

I agree with the OP by Samie because that is exactly what the Bible says without putting anything human on the text.

Putting human logic, thoughts etc. as you always do on the Bible only exalts the human entity and does not exalt God. It also alters the Word of God which is blasphemy.

[Lysimachus]

I do not have to put human theories into/on the what the Bible actually says.

It is clear that you and the SDA Church .org have to put human theories and human thoughts on the Bible so it fits what you have preconceived as the outcome.

I agree with the OP by Samie because that is exactly what the Bible says without putting anything human on the text.

Putting human logic, thoughts etc. as you always do on the Bible only exalts the human entity and does not exalt God. It also alters the Word of God which is blasphemy.

No proof.

[miz3]

Oh, and the 7 last plagues happen BEFORE the Second Coming!

Revelation is NOT written in chronological order!

Revelation chapters fifteen and sixteen are in chronological order. They are a chronological section. Revelation is divided into sections with each section having its own chronology.

If we take your unchronological view of Revelation then we have say that one verse is not connected to another verse anywhere in the Book.

Which is it? Are some parts chronological with other parts or is it as you are asserting that no portion of Revelation is in chronological order?

You cannot have it both ways. Either it has some chronology or it has no chronology (which is what you assert).

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

If you are implying that vv23-28 will occur after the 2nd Coming, when will vv29-31 occur?

Jeremiah 4:29-31:

29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.

30 And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.

31 For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

Your problem is that you are not realizing Types and Antitypes.

[Samie]

Nahum

1:1 The burden of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.

1:2 God [is] jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and [is] furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth [wrath] for his enemies.

1:3 The LORD [is] slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit [the wicked]: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds [are] the dust of his feet.

1:4 He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers: Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth.

1:5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

1:6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

1:7 The LORD [is] good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.

1:8 But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.

1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

1:10 For while [they be] folden together [as] thorns, and while they are drunken [as] drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

1:11 There is [one] come out of thee, that imagineth evil against the LORD, a wicked counsellor.

1:12 Thus saith the LORD; Though [they be] quiet, and likewise many, yet thus shall they be cut down, when he shall pass through. Though I have afflicted thee, I will afflict thee no more.

1:13 For now will I break his yoke from off thee, and will burst thy bonds in sunder.

1:14 And the LORD hath given a commandment concerning thee, [that] no more of thy name be sown: out of the house of thy gods will I cut off the graven image and the molten image: I will make thy grave; for thou art vile.

1:15 Behold upon the mountains the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace! O Judah, keep thy solemn feasts, perform thy vows: for the wicked shall no more pass through thee; he is utterly cut off.

Chapter 2

2:1 He that dasheth in pieces is come up before thy face: keep the munition, watch the way, make [thy] loins strong, fortify [thy] power mightily.

2:2 For the LORD hath turned away the excellency of Jacob, as the excellency of Israel: for the emptiers have emptied them out, and marred their vine branches.

2:3 The shield of his mighty men is made red, the valiant men [are] in scarlet: the chariots [shall be] with flaming torches in the day of his preparation, and the fir trees shall be terribly shaken.

2:4 The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings.

2:5 He shall recount his worthies: they shall stumble in their walk; they shall make haste to the wall thereof, and the defence shall be prepared.

2:6 The gates of the rivers shall be opened, and the palace shall be dissolved.

2:7 And Huzzab shall be led away captive, she shall be brought up, and her maids shall lead [her] as with the voice of doves, tabering upon their breasts.

Do all these things happen after the Second Coming?

Let's get real Samie!

You're employing FALSE hermeneutical principles.

The burden of proof is in you, Lysimachus. You brought up Nahum, you NEED to prove the verses you quoted do not happen AFTER the 2nd Coming. May you see it could be you who "are employing FALSE hermeneutical principles", not me.

Again, the Bible explicitly teaches all the wicked will be rewarded after the righteous have been ushered to heaven. Show me from Scriptures I'm wrong. So far all the verses you quote prove my point.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Since for the last 4 days, there had been no response to my last posts in the two topics I started, after a two-day lively discussion that resulted in 48 replies for the Pure Gospel & 69 replies for the early Saturday morning resurrection of the Lord, I am starting this one.

I believe that the Bible teaches the 7 last plagues will be poured out AFTER, not BEFORE, the Second Coming.

Rev 15 tells us that the saints were already seen in heaven standing in the sea of glass and had sung the song of Moses and of the Lamb (Rev 15:1-4) when the 7 angels were given the 7 vials (vv 5-8) and commanded to pour the plagues on earth (Rev 16:1).

The 7 last plagues are the fulfillment of the wrath of God (Rev 15:1) and if they would be poured out before the 2nd coming then only the last day sinners will experience them and the multitude of sinners long dead can not. Clearly the Bible teaches the wrath of God is for all the ungodly (Rom 2:5-11).

Any comments, forum mates?

In Christ Our Righteous Judge,

Samie

Your logic is flawed. In Revelation 6, we have the second coming described when heaven opens up as a scroll and every mountain is moved out of place.

Revelation

Chapter 6:

6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Chapter 7

7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Revelation 6 describes the Second Coming. Then in Revelation chapter 7, John says "And AFTER these things I saw...." Saw what? Four angels holding back the four winds. But wait a minute, didn't the winds of strive transpire before the Second Coming? Wait a minute, God's servants have not been sealed yet!!!

Samie, your problem is that you are reading your Bible with literalistic, Dispensational, Futurist, JESUIT lenses.

Revelation is not a book of chronological order. One can only understand it when read in the Spirit, and by careful comparison to the other scriptures.

Jesus is coming back only ONE TIME, for ALL of God's Children.

Revelation 19:18 is clear that the fowls are not feasting on the flesh of SOME men, but ALL men!

Then right after that in chapter 20 we have the Millennium, where Satan is bound. Coincidence that the flesh of ALL men are being feasted on and then we have the millennium transpire right after?

I don't think so.

Stick to Revelation chapters fifteen and sixteen. You are to jumbled to make any coherent point.

Second are you sure that chapter six and seven go together because you just said that Revelation is not in "chronological order" and then here on this post you make Revelation have some chronological order by combining chapters six and seven.

If six and seven go together then I think Samie is correct to connect chapters fifteen and sixteen together.

You see Lysimachus you violate your own rules to suit your notions. Then you chastise others when they use your same tactics because it does not fit your preconceived notions.

This is why your logic cannot be trusted. You don't play by consistent rules. You shape everything according to your human scenarios and to what the Bible and the Bible only actually says.

Third according to you we are not to take the Bible "literally" because you accuse Samie of being to literalistic. If this is the rule then we must make different conclusions. For example when Christ said, "If you love me keep my Commandments" Jesus didn't mean that literally but only meant it "figuratively". Thus, if we worship on Sunday instead of Saturday God accepts this because we are worshiping Him in obedience to the Commandment to Worship the day actually makes no difference as long as we Worship God.

Apparently you SDA take the Sabbath Commandment tooooooo literally. You need to massage it according your rules of logic. After all we need to do is worship "in the Spirit" as you put it above and not in the literalistic way the SDA do.

You see you follow what suits you. You really have no set rules for Bible Study. You do whatever fits your fancy in order to make the Bible say what you want it to say. You don't care what the Bible actually says. You care only about what you want it to say.

Samie's logic is not flawed it is clear that your logic is the one that is flawed.

[Samie]

Oh, and the 7 last plagues happen BEFORE the Second Coming!

Revelation is NOT written in chronological order!

And only the wicked alive before the 2nd Coming gets to suffer the wrath of God??? Get real, Lysimachus!

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

I do not have to put human theories into/on the what the Bible actually says.

It is clear that you and the SDA Church .org have to put human theories and human thoughts on the Bible so it fits what you have preconceived as the outcome.

I agree with the OP by Samie because that is exactly what the Bible says without putting anything human on the text.

Putting human logic, thoughts etc. as you always do on the Bible only exalts the human entity and does not exalt God. It also alters the Word of God which is blasphemy.

No proof.

Your posts are proof enough of your putting your human theories into the Bible.

You have shown by your posts that you cannot even operate according to your own set rules on a consistent basis.

There is proof you are just in denial.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Nahum

1:1 The burden of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.

1:2 God [is] jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and [is] furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth [wrath] for his enemies.

1:3 The LORD [is] slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit [the wicked]: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds [are] the dust of his feet.

1:4 He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers: Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth.

1:5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

1:6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

1:7 The LORD [is] good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.

1:8 But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.

1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

1:10 For while [they be] folden together [as] thorns, and while they are drunken [as] drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

1:11 There is [one] come out of thee, that imagineth evil against the LORD, a wicked counsellor.

1:12 Thus saith the LORD; Though [they be] quiet, and likewise many, yet thus shall they be cut down, when he shall pass through. Though I have afflicted thee, I will afflict thee no more.

1:13 For now will I break his yoke from off thee, and will burst thy bonds in sunder.

1:14 And the LORD hath given a commandment concerning thee, [that] no more of thy name be sown: out of the house of thy gods will I cut off the graven image and the molten image: I will make thy grave; for thou art vile.

1:15 Behold upon the mountains the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace! O Judah, keep thy solemn feasts, perform thy vows: for the wicked shall no more pass through thee; he is utterly cut off.

Chapter 2

2:1 He that dasheth in pieces is come up before thy face: keep the munition, watch the way, make [thy] loins strong, fortify [thy] power mightily.

2:2 For the LORD hath turned away the excellency of Jacob, as the excellency of Israel: for the emptiers have emptied them out, and marred their vine branches.

2:3 The shield of his mighty men is made red, the valiant men [are] in scarlet: the chariots [shall be] with flaming torches in the day of his preparation, and the fir trees shall be terribly shaken.

2:4 The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings.

2:5 He shall recount his worthies: they shall stumble in their walk; they shall make haste to the wall thereof, and the defence shall be prepared.

2:6 The gates of the rivers shall be opened, and the palace shall be dissolved.

2:7 And Huzzab shall be led away captive, she shall be brought up, and her maids shall lead [her] as with the voice of doves, tabering upon their breasts.

Do all these things happen after the Second Coming?

Let's get real Samie!

You're employing FALSE hermeneutical principles.

The burden of proof is in you, Lysimachus. You brought up Nahum, you NEED to prove the verses you quoted do not happen AFTER the 2nd Coming. May you see it could be you who "are employing FALSE hermeneutical principles", not me.

Again, the Bible explicitly teaches all the wicked will be rewarded after the righteous have been ushered to heaven. Show me from Scriptures I'm wrong. So far all the verses you quote prove my point.

Absolutely correct.

[Lysimachus]

The point is, John is making a point in Revelation 15:2 concerning the victory of God's people. The issue in context is the Mark of the Beast. So John is suddenly transported forward, and he beholds those who overcame the Beast, Image, and Mark. The idea here is not chronology, but "spiritual importance".

Then when John says "And after that I looked" in 15:5, he's not saying "and after those things, then these things happened". He's simply saying "after I saw that, now I saw that".

Assume you are living in the Middle Ages. You could have a dream about World War II tomorrow, and a dream about the Civil War the next day, or even right after for that matter! Does that mean that the Civil War follows World War II? Of course not.

But it may also be metaphorical concerning those standing on the Sea of Glass. Peter puts God's saints in Mount Zion long before that:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels." Hebrews 12:22

Were they literally standing on the Sea of Glass in Mount Zion?

Of course not.

James White says:

Quote:

Verses 1-8. And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. And I saw as it were a sea of glass, mingled with fire; and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy; for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. And after that I looked, and behold the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened. And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth forever and ever. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. {November 25, 1862 JWe, ARSH 204.14}

The xvth chapter, entire, is but an introduction to the most terrific judgments of the Almighty, that ever have been, or are to be, visited upon this earth in its present state, namely, the seven last plagues. The most that we here behold is a solemn preparation for the outpouring of these unmixed vials. Verse 5 shows that they are poured out subsequently to the last ministration in the sanctuary; for the temple was opened before they go forth. They are given in charge to seven angels, and these angels are clothed in linen pure and white, a fit emblem of the purity of God's righteousness and justice in the infliction of these judgments. They receive these vials from one of the four beasts. These beasts were decided (see thoughts on chap.iv,) to be a class of Christ's assistants in his sanctuary work. How appropriate, then, that these should be the ones to deliver to the ministers of vengeance, vials to be poured upon those who have slighted Christ's mercy, abused his long suffering, heaped contumely upon his name, and crucified him afresh in the treatment of his followers! While the seven angels are performing their fearful mission, the temple is filled with the glory of God, and no man can enter therein. This shows that the work of mercy is closed, and there is no ministration in the sanctuary during the infliction of the plagues; hence they are manifestations of the wrath of God, without any mixture of mercy. {November 25, 1862 JWe, ARSH 204.15}

But in this scene the people of God are not forgotten. The prophet is permitted to anticipate a little, and behold them as victors upon the sea of glass as it were mingled with fire, or sparkling and refulgent with the glory of God, singing the song of Moses and the Lamb. Thus like the bright sun bursting through the midnight cloud, some scene is presented, or some promise given to the humble followers of the Lamb, in every hour of temptation, as if to assure and re-assure them of God's love and care for them, and of the certainty of their final reward. Verily the words of the prophet are among the true sayings of God: "Say ye to the righteous that it shall be well with him," but, "woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him." Isa.iii,10,11. {November 25, 1862 JWe, ARSH 204.16}

The point is, Evangelicals miss the big picture because they get caught up in syntax and letters rather than spiritual principles and spiritual messages that are being portrayed. They get hung up on silly tunnel vision than seeing the BIG picture and beauty of the great controversy being depicted.

[miz3]

The point is, John is making a point in Revelation 15:2 concerning the victory of God's people. The issue in context is the Mark of the Beast. So John is suddenly transported forward, and he beholds those who overcame the Beast, Image, and Mark. The idea here is not chronology, but "spiritual importance".

This "spiritual importance" is just code for I want to have be my way even though the Bible actually says something far different than what I am saying.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Since for the last 4 days, there had been no response to my last posts in the two topics I started, after a two-day lively discussion that resulted in 48 replies for the Pure Gospel & 69 replies for the early Saturday morning resurrection of the Lord, I am starting this one.

I believe that the Bible teaches the 7 last plagues will be poured out AFTER, not BEFORE, the Second Coming.

Rev 15 tells us that the saints were already seen in heaven standing in the sea of glass and had sung the song of Moses and of the Lamb (Rev 15:1-4) when the 7 angels were given the 7 vials (vv 5-8) and commanded to pour the plagues on earth (Rev 16:1).

The 7 last plagues are the fulfillment of the wrath of God (Rev 15:1) and if they would be poured out before the 2nd coming then only the last day sinners will experience them and the multitude of sinners long dead can not. Clearly the Bible teaches the wrath of God is for all the ungodly (Rom 2:5-11).

Any comments, forum mates?

In Christ Our Righteous Judge,

Samie

Revelation was written in a literary style known as a chiasm where the most important point is in the middle and the two sides reflect each other, and John appears to have copied quite a bit from Rabinic writings that would develope into the Mishna and from popular theatrical plays from his day and using the same styles. The reason why the 7 last plagues is after Revlation 14 and 15 is because of the structure, not the chronology.

It seems the Bible in Revelation explicitly say John was given what he wrote and NOT that he copied from elsewhere as you imply. Don't you think so?

KJV Revelation 1:1-2 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

As for the chiasmic structure, I believe Rev 15 has no such structure. The sequence of events is coherent with all other parts of Scripture. Although, understandably, others seem to take refuge in chiasmic structure, if their cherished view does not seem to be backed up by the order of events in Scriptures.