Walter Veith And Conspiracy Theories

[Patrick Lawrence]

Hi I thought I would start a thread about Walter Veith and conspiracy theories. After watching his video on Islam and critiquing I thought I would look at more. Some of you mentioned how he was correct on everything else. I thought his was unlikely from the way he made his case about Islam. And after looking at his other videos I was correct. Since he has a LOT of videos I do not have the time to treat each as I did the Islam video going point by point. So instead let me point out the problems with how he works. Then hopefully you guys can see the problems in how he works.

1. Claims things as fact without ever backing them up. But he trys to do it with confidence and quickly so you just assume it is true if you do not know better. For example he shows the Russian federations symbol of the two headed eagle coat of arms. He says they chose this after the fall of the soviet union because it was a manonic symbol. He offers no proof and move to the next topic. He does not mention this was the symbol of the Russian Empire for 500 years before the communists took over. And that it was common in medieval heraldry. Or that it is ancient symbol used by many countries. So he shows conpiracy where basic facts do not need any. The new Russian state is run by people that are very nationalistic. They are proud of Russian history and the Russian Empire. They chose the natural symbol to reflect that. And it is only natural for them to look to life before communism for nationalistic symbols.

2. He uses any source that agrees with his conspiracy driven world view no matter how bad. He seems to operate from this logic. I "know" conspiracy theories are true. So any book that agrees with me must be true. And if any one attacks the book it proves they are part of the conpiracy and the book is true.

3. He takes things out of context to make connections that are not there. And he does so with no evidence to back them up. He just states this means this without really backing it up. For example the innocent gestures always being evil mason signs. Here is another persons website to illustrate the point. http://waitingtorot.blogspot.com/2007/11/12-masonic-signs-of-recognition_27.html

Because of this nothing he says by his logic can be proven wrong. I have also found this true of my conspiracy minded friends. NOTHING can convince them that everything is not just one big conspiracy. "Real history" is always hidden. Things proving these theories are wrong are always by the Jesuits or something. Every thing is always connected and complex even when not needed. And all logic and common sense is thrown out the window.

And this is very important to me because it hurts the three angels message. Mixing the true message of God with outlandish and unfounded theories will turn people away from the truth.

Let me go on a little bit more about why these conspiracy theories hurt the three angels messae. First of all if you study the roots of these theries you find something very interesting. Many of the ones related to bankers have origins in the anti Jewish writings of the middle ages through the 19th century etc. This came about for two reasons. One is because of the VERY strong anti-Jewish ideas related to Christ being killed by Jews on the cross. The second is because Christians were forbidden from Charging interest at the time Jews were encouraged to act as bankers. These things led to terrible persicution of the Jews in Christian lands. And later it led to terrible 19th century and early twentieth century anti Jewish conspiracy theories. These have been carried on today with the word jew just removed in some cases. But these are the same theories used and in use by fascists and Islamic fundamentalists etc.

Second these theories hurt entire countries. If everything is a conspiracy why vote? If anything happens it was some conspiracy by the government etc. So these theories hurt how governments run around the world. And relations between governments. Many countries have a high number of people that believe in these things.

An example of this is Pakistan. Even the best and brightest believe in these theories. This makes it almost impossible for the US and Pakistan to really have a good relationship. This article talking about it has it exactly right.....

"The problem is more than a peculiar domestic phenomenon for Pakistan. It has grown into a narrative of national victimhood that is a nearly impenetrable barrier to any candid discussion of the problems here. In turn, it is one of the principal obstacles for the United States in its effort to build a stronger alliance with a country to which it gives more than a billion dollars a year in aid. " http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/world/asia/26pstan.html

So these false conspiracy hurt international relations. And even more they contribute directly to deaths on all sides. They are not harmless fantasy. Ideas are important and have consequences when spread.

Not only this I believe they hurst Adventists/Christians. They are popular because they are sensationalistic and exciting. And Ellen White warns us about ideas that feed on that.

My idea is to follow what I think is a good model. And that is Ellen White. These theories were around in her day. They were maybe even more believed in the US and europe at the time. And yet she does not get into them. Look up for example the masons in her writings. See out of the VAST amount of writing she did how much she talks about it. And also in what way she talks about it. Now compare that to Walter Veith who mainly talks about conspiracy theories. Then look up the word conspiracy in her writings. And look up other ones like the Illuminati etc. You will see she did not get into these theories. And this was some one we believe was given present truth just for our time by God.

So please please do your own research on these things. Read real history books and not just conspiracy theory books. Read about the personal goals and aims and life of the men involved in history. Host things to a higher standard than even scientists. We have a very special message. And anything we pair with it has to be very carefully checked out. And please conctrate on giving the present truth the world.

Any way that is enough rambling. Sorry about the long post. But I believe this along with the emering church movement are some of the worst dangers in the Adventist church.

[Lysimachus]

I think you are investing too much energy into this. Just enjoy his series, that's my recommendation to you. There are 36 of them. I feel you are being too negative and critical.

Numerous times Walter Veith does not state things as fact. He just presents data, and lets you decide. He's not sensational, but very balanced. He lets you think about it, but does not force any conclusions in his presentations.

[Patrick Lawrence]

Not really. I did not want to write about Veith. And I had seen things of his I like. But when he makes a VERY large part of his ministry conspiracy theories you have to look at them. And he really does do a terrible job with them. Honestly here it just makes me very sad. He seems like a nice person. And it seems his theology is basicly correct. But then he taints what ever he does with these incorrect and sensational theories. This will have the effect of having many people reject the truth if he is all they see of it.

[CoAspen]

TRUE!!! Falsehood can taint everything else, especially when the real facts are available to all. Conspiracies will bring in serious doubt to all else.

[Woody]

http://www.thejerichoroad.com/home/category/walter-veith

For those who do not know, Dr. Walter Veith is a middle-aged, white South African with a Ph.d in zoology, an atheist converted to Christianity who came out of South Africa’s racist apartheid regime. He was ordained in South Africa to the ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist church.

In the past, Dr. Veith was particularly known for his lectures on Creationism and health related issues, however, his current work focuses on promoting the most common conspiracy theories, ones found on thousands of web sites, in fringe publications, radio programs, late night cable televsion, and on the lucrative lecture circuit.

Among other things, Dr. Veith also teaches, contrary to Seventh-day Adventist belief, the superiority of the King James version of the Bible over other more modern versions and appears to believe more modern translations are part of the devil’s conspiracy to mislead humanity.

Dr. Veith’s most popular video on YouTube, one that has received over 80,000 views to date (!), is a clip claiming Saddam Hussein has been dead since 1999 and that the man by that name who was hung for crimes against humanity was a body double. Should you watch the clip, ask yourself if what Dr. Veith offers is real proof. What real evidence does he have to support his assertion? And if he does not offer sound proof, why is he doing this?

Dr. Veith also believes President George Bush and the CIA are responsible for planning and executing the destruction of the World Trade Centre towers in New York City. This is only one of many evil conspiracies he sees among world leaders. (see his New World Order videos).

This, according to Veith, is the outcome of President Bush and all the major world leaders being under the direct control of secret societies, particularly the Free Masons and the Jesuit order of the Catholic Church. Dr. Veith believes there is a conspiracy between Islam and the Catholic church to rule the world. He teaches that Mormons are also part of this secret conspiracy, one he is determined to expose.

However, it is not clear to me why he thinks his work is different than all of the secular conspiracy theorist he freely uses to “prove” his conjectures.

Dr. Veith sees the signs, symbols, and secret handshakes of secret societies all around us, permeating society and controlling minds. He believes these secret societies, inspired by the devil, are attempting to establish a New World order in which they have absolute control over the political and financial decisions of everyone.

Dr. Veith believes the Christian Alpha Course, because it has the word “alpha” in it’s name, is evil, since alpha brain waves, which we all have, are some how being used in a hypnotic way to control other human beings. I’m not exactly sure how this works out, but Dr. Veith seems to think this is happening. I suppose this would not apply to the Greek alphabet or any other letter system with the prefix of alpha. (see the Strange Fire video).

What I find more disturbing in Dr. Veith’s work is his twisting and misinterpretation of Bible prophecies to fit his scheme of conspiracy theories. This is undermining the faith of others who are sincerely trying to understand what God has said about events in the last days. Perhaps this, in the end, will prove the most serious consequence of his work in the name of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

I also find it odd and spiritually suspect that Dr. Veith spends all of his public time exposing what he imagines are the secret, sinful acts of others. I can’t help but wonder if Dr. Veith himself has a few secrets. I wonder because I’ve seen or heard nothing about his own current struggles with sin in his life. Perhaps that is all a thing of the past. Could his supposedly deep insights into the evil working of others be the result of his having reached perfection himself? To speak so often and so freely about evil outside himself suggest a belief that little resides within. Who better then to judge the world and expose it for what it is?

I’ve noticed this same tendency in the lives of Veith’s followers, the ones I have met personally or heard from. They have precious few specific confessions to make. Though I know of sins they are presently struggling with, they exercise a remarkable freedom in criticism of their church, fellow members, or the pastor. Odd, they never feel so free in talking about their own shortcomings. Not a peep is heard in prayer meetings or worship service when opportunities to put wrongs right are given. Not a single personal peccadillo is revealed. They might make the rash general reference to being a sinner, but much of the dirt others see in them is neatly swept under the rug. I believe Jesus called it hypocrisy.

(Should you, the reader, wonder about my own confessions or accuse me of hypocrisy, as more than one has, my archive category, “Self Exams” or “Meditations” will be a place to start. I openly confess here that hypocrisy has been one of my more grievous sins.)

Many Christians, including some Seventh-day Adventist ministers, believe that Dr. Veith is doing a wonderful work of warning the world about the conspiracies of evil that surround us. Though this surprises me personally, I suppose some of our members and pastors believe this is the work Jesus commissioned his disciples to do and that there are many examples in the Bible of Jesus preaching in this way. I have not been able to find any, but they must be there or else these sincere souls would not support Dr. Veith’s conspiracy theories.

I know, as a Seventh-day Adventist minister, that the Seventh-day Adventist church does not teach or approve of conspiracy theories. Nor does it advocate the King James Version of the Bible as the only trusted translation.

The Biblical Research Institute, an officially appointed theological research group of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, has found it necessary to refute Dr. Veith’s research in this area. (BRI Newsletter article).These facts can easily be gathered from our official public statements as well as the wide majority practice within our churches. Only the smallest minority of members worldwide, a group that does not represent the church as a whole, share the conspiracy theories of Dr. Veith.

(For more on our belief regarding Bible versions, here is a paper on the subject.)

The consistent practice of administrators, pastors, bible workers, elders, deacons, and other members from around the world show that Dr. Veith’s representations of the Seventh-day Adventist faith is very different from our own.

From Texas, Pastor Bill Cork comments, “His videos reveal that he has uncritically appropriated a wide variety of conspiracy theories and sources, which he has strung together on the flimsiest of associations (as noted under Alpha, above). Everyone is a freemason, these are controlled by the Jesuits, who also created the Mormons. He rehashes every 9-11, Kennedy assassination, and Oklahoma City bombing conspiracy theory. He consistently says he is giving sources, but his sources are mainly just other conspiracy sites.” -From Bill Cork’s blog, A Twitch Upon The Thread.

Dr. Veith is speaking and teaching in the name of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, therefore, you must ask yourself, is this what I believe and is it what I want others to believe about my faith?

I am saddened by the fact that some of our members are being misled by Dr. Veith and that some non-members are wrongly assuming he represents our faith. I received an early morning call from an irate member in Scotland, who had recently returned from the Veith meetings in the Netherlands and had come across my blog. He assured me he and others would be sending their tithe to Dr. Veith. Comments made on this blog are in a similar vein. From the comments and emails I have received, from members and fellow pastors, it is clear enough to me that Veith is having a significant negative and divisive influence in some of our local churches.

One local elder from Colorado (U.S.) has emailed me, telling of the divisive influence Veith has had in his church. How many others are having to spend time they could use in better ways, trying to counteract the distorted teachings of this misguided man?

I know of fellow pastors in the U.K. who are facing similiar division among their members. I have heard of them in Finland, the Netherlands, Germany, South Africa, and the United States.

If you as a church leader are not familiar with these issues, then I would hope you take the time to study them until we are able to give an answer to those who ask. There is a moral obligation resting on all who are called to teach the gospel of Christ. Are you willing to speak out, to say the things you have been saying privately about Dr. Veith’s misrepresentations of your faith? Are you a pastor or church administrator who has hesitated to take appropriate action under the guidelines of our church manual? Will you now challenge Dr. Veith’s insubordinate behaviour in circumventing the service request policies for ordained ministers? Will you be clear with the church at large where you stand on Veith’s conspiracy theories and other odd teachings? If you have been wondering about the timeliness of speaking out, I would suggest that time has come.

[Gail]

There are many very GOOD presentations about our time out there now that don't cause you to shake your head at this or that.

[Woody]

Excellent Point Gail.

We ARE what we behold.

I prefer a thoughtful hour on the life of Christ.

[Lysimachus]

Woody,

I think you missunderstand Veith's approach to the KJV.

Answer this:

Why does he quote from the NIV and NKJV and other translations all the time when presenting doctrine?

He's not a KJV only as many people think. The issue has to do with the motives and intentions behind the other Bibles.

Have you read Wilkenson's "Our Authorized Bible Vindicated"?

Try these:

Our Authorized Bible Vindicated - by Benjamin G. Wilkinson, Ph.D.

Answers to Objections: A Reply to the &q...indicated" - Benjamin G. Wilkinson, Ph.D.

Woody,

Wilkinson was a respected leader in the SDA Church, and Adventism has highly esteemed his work.

Professor Veith's views of the KJV are virtually in alignment with Wilkinson's.

I've watched ALL 3 of his lectures on the Battle of the Bibles, and his approach is undoubtedly balanced, and along the line of Wilkinson's.

That review you posted is so flawed, I do not even know where to begin.

I highly doubt the reviewer took time to watch ALL of Veith's presentations meticulously.

I have seen almost every single one of his videos from beginning to end, and only a small handful he discusses conspiracy theories. The rest of it is prophetic doctrine.

[Woody]

Quote:

I highly doubt the reviewer took time to watch ALL of Veith's presentations meticulously.

If that is true - I will have to join him in not having ANY desire to study the man even in the smallest bit.

No thanks. I'll stick with God's Word.

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

I highly doubt the reviewer took time to watch ALL of Veith's presentations meticulously.

If that is true - I will have to join him in not having ANY desire to study the man even in the smallest bit.

No thanks. I'll stick with God's Word.

Wwooooddy.

We are ADVENTISTS. Let us BAND TOGETHER...not bring each other down!

It is a sin to ignore other people's research. We are to give an answer for every man that asketh a reason for the hope that is within us.

[Woody]

I am of the opinion that banding under Veith would not be the kind of 'banding' that I would want to participate in. Why don't we just band under the 28 Fundamentals. I stand for each of them and am willing to band with anyone else that feels the same.

[Patrick Lawrence]

I have to say Woody I do not think it is good to go into personal attacks.

You say..... "I can’t help but wonder if Dr. Veith himself has a few secrets. I wonder because I’ve seen or heard nothing about his own current struggles with sin in his life. Perhaps that is all a thing of the past. Could his supposedly deep insights into the evil working of others be the result of his having reached perfection himself? To speak so often and so freely about evil outside himself suggest a belief that little resides within. Who better then to judge the world and expose it for what it is?"

This to me just does not seem like a very Christian way to approach this in a public forum. You ask it as a question but really it is accusing, mocking and suggesting. It also because of the non-accurate discription of the conservative view of not living in known sin comes of as bias and agenda driven. (But still capable of sin and very likely falling and having to repent. And also having unkown sins etc.)

Might I suggest both conservatives and liberals can have wrong ideas and be right with God. And that we can point out problems on one side or the others but in a Godly and kind way.

[Woody]

What you quote is not from me.

But I do agree with your last paragraph.

[Patrick Lawrence]

Lysimachus just to clear things up. I pointed out in my original post to this thread I have not been able to see every single thing he has put on video. But I also did not say every thing he says is false. Matter of fact if you notice I did not mention anything related to theology or to him personaly. My comments are directed at his conpiracy theory beliefs and working method in relation to them. In these things I am sure I was fair.

Also as mentioned in the post above I think we have to approach thing in a Godly way when deeling with each other.

And as I also said he seems like a nice man and sincere. But even sincere beliefs can be wrong.

[Naomi]

I am of the opinion that banding under Veith would not be the kind of 'banding' that I would want to participate in. Why don't we just band under the 28 Fundamentals. I stand for each of them and am willing to band with anyone else that feels the same.

[Woody]

Quote:

But even sincere beliefs can be wrong.

[Patrick Lawrence]

Woody sorry about that. I was in a hurry and did not see you were just posting a copy from some one else. Or I think that is what you did right?

[Woody]

Woody sorry about that. I was in a hurry and did not see you were just posting a copy from some one else. Or I think that is what you did right?

Yes. I quoted the link on top so that it would be clear that they were not my words - just what 'the other side' was saying.Like you say "it is a sin to ignore other people's research".

I did not leave any personal commentary. But you all are free to state what you feel about that side.

And no problem. Thanks for the apology.

[Patrick Lawrence]

Sure glad to try and correct any mistake I make

[phkrause]

Wwooooddy.

We are ADVENTISTS. Let us BAND TOGETHER...not bring each other down!

It is a sin to ignore other people's research. We are to give an answer for every man that asketh a reason for the hope that is within us.

First of let me just say that I don't in the slightest believe that Walter Veith is a conspiracy theorist. But I definitely don't agree with you that "it is a sin to ignore other people's research." There are lots of research that I wouldn't waste my time with. So far all the lectures I've seen from WV, I have enjoyed very much, and from what I was able to recall from past years of sermons of a number of speakers, have been very accurate. He might have a strange way of putting 2 and 2 together, but he does a very good job.

[Patrick Lawrence]

pkrause if he believes is pretty much every conspiracy known to man. And then he even connects them together in new wasy. How is he not a conspriacy theorist? I could see you saying you agree with him and they are true. But not that he is not a conspiracy theorist.

Also you say he is accurate. If you do research on what he is saying in regard to conspiracy stuff he just is not accurate. For example the Islam video since I have a point by point post on it. Where am a wrong in my post and he is correct?

[phkrause]

So I'm guessing that you have talked to him about his false preaching? Right?

[Woody]

I'm sure that Veith has heard plenty about his false teachings. I doubt he would want to hear one more. lol

[Patrick Lawrence]

pkrause you did not answer my question about where I was wrong in my critique of his views on Islam. I will gladly go back and change them to show he was correct.

And I will be very happy to talk to him if you have a direct way of communicating with him you would like to PM me. If not he is a public figure so his views can be addressed publicaly. And notice I ONLY talk about the public things. I never said anything like he is a bad man or not saved or a Jesuit agent etc. I just believe he is wrong on his conspiracy ideas and teaching error. And this can be seen from how he is building his arguments and his sources and false statements etc.

[Lysimachus]

I am of the opinion that banding under Veith would not be the kind of 'banding' that I would want to participate in. Why don't we just band under the 28 Fundamentals. I stand for each of them and am willing to band with anyone else that feels the same.

I never said let's band "under Veith". Please. I'm talking about giving a fair evaluation of one another's Biblical research! Don't stretch things out of proportion. Wilkinson has done years and years of research that deserves the attention of those who really care to come to a balanced and honest conclusion on these matters.

We cannot just "ignore" Wilkinson's Biblical research. It's well and scholarly done.