Walter Veith And Conspiracy Theories

[Woody]

As with most issues - there are good men on both sides of the issue. I just don't feel it necessary to follow a man. I will stick with scripture.

[CoAspen]

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I will stick with scripture.

The best answer for all who wonder about the teachings of others.

[LifeHiscost]

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Any way that is enough rambling. Sorry about the long post. But I believe this along with the emering church movement are some of the worst dangers in the Adventist church.

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I have a tendency to agree with much of your assessments. When determining what would be the best way to lead to Christ, I find it (the study of conspiracy theories) less than the most effective in revealing God's desires for humanity.

OTOH the Word does seem to give room for a certain measure of making it clear there is a dark world of anti-Christ, of which it seems necessary for the disciple of Christ to be aware.

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me...." Hosea 4:6 NKJV

"But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. " 2 Tim 3:13-15 NKJV

We are told from the Spirit of Prophecy that God's Holy Spirit would be withdrawn from the earth in the last days. Distrust or unbelief are one result of that withdrawal since they are gifts of the Holy Spirit. It doesn't seem unreasonable to expect a necessity of revealing the wiles of the evil one during that time of unbelief, lest these promises below are not seen as most important for the believer, especially when our feelings during stress lead us away from the confidence that it is never God perpetrating the pain that is often suffered in the lives of loyal Christians.

"Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution."2 Timothy 3:12 NKJV

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”" Hebrews 13:5 NKJV

"To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."Colossians 1:27 NKJV

God blesses!

[Patrick Lawrence]

I agree it is bad. And I have no problem with evil men at the end of times. But the theories have to be true. My problem is with the complete and utter nonsense being pushed a truth along with the 3 angels message.

[skyblue888]

Patrick, I read your introductory post and I tend to agree with you. Some years ago I watched some of his videos but it didn't take long before I lost interest in them. So true what you said about Ellen White not having much to say about conspiracy theories. Many adventists love to hear sensational stuff and yet they hardly spend time studying the Word or the SoP.

Mrs. White herself declared that one interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up every other, Christ and His righteousness. There is more than meets the eye in that statement but I am sure it does not include conspiracy theories.

The third angel's message can dispense with these theories. The focus is to be on the necessity of appropriating the merits of Christ to ourselves that we may be clothed with the robe of His righteousness for His righteousness accomplishes everything as it imparts all the powers, all the grace, all the penitence, and all the pardon of sin. See T.M.92,93; F.W.27,24.

sky

[Lysimachus]

As with most issues - there are good men on both sides of the issue. I just don't feel it necessary to follow a man. I will stick with scripture.

That doesn't make sense though. The issue is about scriptural translations so that we CAN stick to the scriptures! Your response is kind of a "monkey-wrench" to the issue.

[Lysimachus]

I feel there is too much crying "peace and safety" in this thread. :(

[Gail]

I've asked this question before, but-

I would entirely expect Satan to produce conspiracies. I don't think that is so surprising at all.

But how much time and energy should we devote to them? Could the study of them be a diversion from the present truth? There may be some called to sound an alarm over these things, granted, and there are probably plenty of people out there who need to hear those warnings. But is that our primary task in the time we are living?

[Lysimachus]

I've asked this question before, but-

I would entirely expect Satan to produce conspiracies. I don't think that is so surprising at all.

But how much time and energy should we devote to them? Could the study of them be a diversion from the present truth? There may be some called to sound an alarm over these things, granted, and there are probably plenty of people out there who need to hear those warnings. But is that our primary task in the time we are living?

I do agree with you Gail. I agree that many Adventists have invested too much time in focusing on conspiracy theories, and I am willing to admit that I think Walter Veith has gone too far in some areas. There are some areas he is not able to prove.

There are some conspiracies, however, that he did prove. For example, that Albert Pike was a Freemason--and straight from his own blueprint in his book he predicted the future rise of Three World Wars. You can read about Albert Pike's 3-World-War Blueprint here: http://www.hearingthetruth.org/chapter11.pdf

The purpose was to draw attention that Freemasonry and the Illuminati were indirectly created by the Papacy as an agent to help bring about the New World Order, where thesis vs. antithesis creates synthesis--and that there true is an agenda for a New World Order and the Papacy is behind it. This goes right along with the Spirit of Prophecy and The Great Controversy, and helps to reaffirm faith in people that what the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy predicts on these matters is coming true.

But at the same time, I agree that we can go overboard. For example, Walter Veith went on too long about the Twin Towers, and showing video clip after video clip to create questions as to whether it was an inside job or an outside job, hinting that it was most likely an inside job.

He could have shortened that significantly, as whether it was an inside job or whether it was an outside job, it does not deter from the fact that there truly is a scheme to bring about a New World Order.

What bothers me, however, is that many Adventists use this on Veith to really nail him--basically disqualifying his ENTIRE series as "useless".

That means they cannot in good conscience send any new person the series. That is depriving these poor souls!

Words cannot describe the expression in their voices and their faces when they see the truth for the first time after watching his series. They are like "It's just soooo clear!"--we're talking about Bible truth from a Historicist perspective, and all the doctrines on the State of the Dead, Hell-Fire, the Sabbath and Sunday, the Antichrist, the 2300 days, the 70 weeks, the Millennium, etc. etc. is all cleared up for them.

Veith throws in the Conspiracy theories in maybe 6 or more out of his 36 videos in his Total Onslaught series. We can always weed out of the way whatever stuff we need to after we've given the viewers a chance to watch the whole series first.

If we start explaining to them in detail about "well, I disagree with him on this, but I agree with him on this and that....", we'll just confuse them. They can't break it all up in their minds so early. But there is enough truth in his presentations to hit home! :)

[Gail]

I wonder if it could simply be said of him, as others have said about Samuel Bacchiocchi, that he is an expert in the area that he is an expert in, and runs into some problem outside of that realm?

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Woody

As with most issues - there are good men on both sides of the issue. I just don't feel it necessary to follow a man. I will stick with scripture.

Response

That doesn't make sense though. The issue is about scriptural translations so that we CAN stick to the scriptures! Your response is kind of a "monkey-wrench" to the issue.

The response needs some clarification. As written isn't making much sense..."scriptural translations so that we CAN stick to the scriptures"!! Where is the trust and guidance of the Holy Spirit being used?

[Lysimachus]

I wonder if it could simply be said of him, as others have said about Samuel Bacchiocchi, that he is an expert in the area that he is an expert in, and runs into some problem outside of that realm?

Something like that. =P I really like Samuele Bacchiocchi's book "Wine in the Bible". Best scholarship I've found on that subject! =]

[Patrick Lawrence]

skyblue888 I agree.

[Woody]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Woody

As with most issues - there are good men on both sides of the issue. I just don't feel it necessary to follow a man. I will stick with scripture.

Response

That doesn't make sense though. The issue is about scriptural translations so that we CAN stick to the scriptures! Your response is kind of a "monkey-wrench" to the issue.

The response needs some clarification. As written isn't making much sense..."scriptural translations so that we CAN stick to the scriptures"!! Where is the trust and guidance of the Holy Spirit being used?

[Patrick Lawrence]

Lysimachus this is exactly what I mean. You use for an example Albert Pike's alleged future prediction of 2 world wars. This case proves my points. This is based on a well known hoax. And its history includes connections with anti-semitism etc. So it shows both his lack of quality research. His lack of good sources and relience on known frauds. And the history of anti-semitism mixed in with the roots of a lot of these theories. Pike never made the predictions about the wars. You can read a detailed account about how going back to search for primary documents will lead to the original hoax. http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Articles/Pike-Mazzini_Three-World-Wars.htm And you can go here to read more about the hoax. And how it was admitted in public by the person who did it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxil_hoax

And unlike what you said it hurts the gospel and three angels message having this nonsense associated with it.

You also refer to the 9/11 stuff. The problem is not that he talks about it to much in relations to conspiracies. The problem is he talks about it at all in relation to conspiracy theories. But it is just as untrue and damaging as his other false conspiracy theories.

So again my problem is the many many errors mixed in with the truth. This is something Satan wants not God. And Satan will use it to discredit the truth.

I would incourage you or any one else that might have access to him to please with him to stick to the gospel and three angels message and stay away from these false theories. And to be careful with every single thing he connects to the present truth.

[Patrick Lawrence]

Gail the problem seems to go deeoper than that. There are basic ways to research things where you go back to primary sources for evidence. And way and balance your sources. And make logical conclusions.

[Woody]

If ONLY we could just stick with the 28 Fundamentals. I feel that that is a wonderful document. But when we try to go outside of it we find all kinds of problems.

[BobRyan]

I think you are investing too much energy into this. Just enjoy his series, that's my recommendation to you. There are 36 of them. I feel you are being too negative and critical.

Numerous times Walter Veith does not state things as fact. He just presents data, and lets you decide. He's not sensational, but very balanced. He lets you think about it, but does not force any conclusions in his presentations.

Yes you make good points here.

I was just reading from 5T452 and 454 where we are told that error works via conspiracy and secrecy. "Error REQUIRES disguise and concealment". Certainly Satan used it with Eve - and with Christ in Matt 4 and with mankind in 2 Cor 11:14 and 2Thess 2...

People who claim this or that is a conspiracy - start out with zero credibility in my book until they show some reasonable research and source information.

People who claim this or that "is definitely not a conspiracy" also start out with zero credibility in my book until they too can show substantial research and source information to back up the claim.

By its very nature - conspiracy is not well known "in general" and so anyone claiming to know so much about it as to claim "this or that" is most definitely NOT a conspiracy -- or most definitely IS a conspiracy - have a lot of work to do to back up their claim - either way.

in Christ,

Bob

[Patrick Lawrence]

The problem with Woody is they were written in a way not to offend either side. Where both sides could kinda see their side in there. They are vague enough to not exactly address the deviding issues even the salvational ones. And lets face it. When a conference is run by one side or the other people on the other side get up set. And I understand people do not want unity is error. That is error on salvational issues. And it goes both way.

[Patrick Lawrence]

Good Bob then you will like my stance. Get to the source of the question and prove it. And on conspiracy theories look at the claim of both sides. Research them and get to the sources. And primary source is not a 4 hand account in a conspiracy theory book

[Woody]

The problem with Woody is they were written in a way not to offend either side. Where both sides could kinda see their side in there. They are vague enough to not exactly address the deviding issues even the salvational ones. And lets face it. When a conference is run by one side or the other people on the other side get up set. And I understand people do not want unity is error. That is error on salvational issues. And it goes both way.

I am certainly glad for it's vagueness. I have yet to find another person who views things exactly as I do. So, most likely if it was not vague - I would not fit in. And not many would.

[Patrick Lawrence]

Being vague can be good and I understand why they did it. My only point is it is easy to say we should stick with this vague thing. In reality important salvational doctrines matter to peoples salvation. The trick is to not get into things that are not salvational.

[Woody]

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In reality important salvational doctrines matter to peoples salvation.

I am not so sure that is true. But what I do know is that salvation is clearly taught in the 28 Fundamentals. Nothing is in there that is contrary to any doctrine of salvation.

[Patrick Lawrence]

The clear example is sanctification. There is a reason both sides find it so important. It relates to the very basics of the Christian experience.

[Woody]

Yes. And Sanctification is certainly in the 28 Fundamentals.