Doomsday Date

[phkrause]

I think TOL your missing what I'm asking! I just am interested in, do you agree with wayfinders statement or not? A yes or no is all I need. Thanks

[Dr. Rich]

Well grounded? Does this mean no matter what the truth might be you will never change your opinion?

Wayfinder does not believe in any national sunday law. However, the 1335 days have to be actual days because NO ONE could live for that long if they were years. (Duh)

[Guest]

Matt 15:14 Let them alone: they are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

[TreeOfLife]

I am sorry P Krause,

but to me little or no reliable knowledge of Scripture truth can be gained from choosing one authority among men over and above another. There is no way but to dive a little deeper... Until each of us find and recognize the obvious truth for ourselves.

However, the answer to your question is easy enough to recognize by means of a simple comparison of what is being said re the number 666... While not forgetting Jesus' own words per John 14:29.

I think TOL your missing what I'm asking! I just am interested in, do you agree with wayfinders statement or not? A yes or no is all I need. Thanks

[Dr. Rich]

Matt 15:14 Let them alone: they are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Jesus was NOT talking about Himself being blind! He was talking to all of the Jewish leaders/tachers who thought they were in need of nothing (as many do today) and therefore could NOT be taught anything new.

[wayfinder]

Matt 15:14 Let them alone: they are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Matthew 15:9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand.11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?" 13 He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.14Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."15 Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17 "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body?18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.'19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

RHL, If you are trying to be convincing in your argument, that I am learning from and following the evil one, at least use the full context of your proof text.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: RLH

Matt 15:14 Let them alone: they are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Jesus was NOT talking about Himself being blind! He was talking to all of the Jewish leaders/tachers who thought they were in need of nothing (as many do today) and therefore could NOT be taught anything new.

Pretty sure RLH wasn't talking about Jesus being blind! Not sure how you determined that from the passage he quoted??????

[Guest]

RHL, If you are trying to be convincing in your argument, that I am learning from and following the evil one, at least use the full context of your proof text.

I wasn't trying to prove any such thing, although it could very well be the truth, now that you mention it.

[wayfinder]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

RHL, If you are trying to be convincing in your argument, that I am learning from and following the evil one, at least use the full context of your proof text.

Quote:

I wasn't trying to prove any such thing, although it could very well be the truth, now that you mention it.

Facts speak for themselves my friend.

[Gibs]

DR. Rich,

You ask, "Gibs, can you please explain to me how Jesus can come like a thief as in the days of Noah when NO ONE KNEW what was going to happen-after the 7th Trumpet blows an after the first 5 bowls or wrath and after the first 5 plagues have taken place? It is my opion that this would be impossible. Therefore, the coming like a thief is an event prior to the time of trouble in order to seal the 144k and 5 wise virgins so they can witness to the bride during the time of trouble."

I am of the opinion the 144 k are about all sealed now if not already and about to be sent forth for the last call to the inhabitants of this world. You hold a different perspective I know but what is your take on that. And does HE come as a thief to the wise virgins? It is said to be at midnite, and that could mean the darkest hour of this earths history.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[wayfinder]

We are in the period of the holding back (delay) of the four winds (Revelation 7:1; 10:6). This delay started on March 19, 1994, which was the end of the Restoration/Jubalee calender. The appointed time of the end was the last day of the last year on this calender. From this time until the present and the very near future, the preparation of the bondservants (144,000) has been in progress. When sealed, the 144,000/bondservants will be completed in righteousness, having finished the sanctification process through the guidance and work of the Spirit of Truth/Word of God. When sealed these 144,000 will be sent to awaken the sleeping, near death, kingdom of heaven (ten bridesmaids). This awakening/shaking will continue for the next 1335 days (24 hour days) and end with the casting down of the censer. The casting down of the censer ends the intercession on behalf of the kingdom of heaven and begins the process of the preparation of the bride to meet her Bridegroom. I expect that this will start on or about July 11 of this year, but then this is only my expectation, it may not happen this way. I know it will take place sometime.

There are three separate groups that are sealed, at three separate times. The first group are the 144,000, these are the priests. The second is the bridesmaids, these are the kingdom. The third is those from the "nations of the world" who do not receive the mark of the beast, these are the bride of the Son of God.

[Kevin H]

Kevin, when Sister White was addressing the concept of a "young earth" vs the evolutionist idea of a very "old earth" (millions of years), it would be reasonable for her to use a "young earth" number widely accepted by the people. In her day and much the same today that number is about 6,000.

If she had used a different number, 7,000 or 10,000 or whatever, her point, her comments concerning young earth vs old earth would have been lost in the controversy over the number she used. The actual age of the earth in this comparison is irrelevant. Christians belive it is FAR less than "millions". She was simply getting across the point that the creation days were a 24 hour literal time frame and that the earth was "young".

I think this idea can carry forward to many of her comments in relation to the age of the earth. Lets not get hung up on the exact number and loose sight on the larger issue. For "6,000" years Satan has been allowed to work, for instance. What if she said 10,000? Or 20,000? We would be hung up on the "number" and miss the point. Kind of like being hung up on the 6,000 right now, lets not miss the bigger picture. It's a young earth, soon to end, pick a number your happy with. Whatever number it is, it is far less than "millions".

Yes indeed. The issue is that Mrs. White indeed believed in a young world, created in 6 literal days with God resting on the Sabbath, that Adam and Eve were the first people who we all decended from, and they were literal people.

The problems are what we read into the story. First we read into the text a strictness that is not there. The numbers are approxamates and the different manuscripts would give us an age range from about 6,000 to about 10,000 years. We need to be fair to these differences. Second we expect the geneologies in Genesis to be a good modern western Greek geneology. We do not allow the text to be an ancient geneology with the coustoms and methods used by the ancient world; more specifically that not everyone makes it into the geneology lists. They skip generations.

Now why do I call this a problem? Three reasons:

1. We become anchored to the 6,000 years. If there is evidence that something happened maybe a little bit older but certanly not millions or billions, but because of the date being a little bit older than which ever geneology we use, there are people who may feel that since it is older than their date that they must throw out the whole Bible since they can't fit it into their dates. Mrs. White, while keeping us focused on the young world and the historisity of Genesis, she also gives us some more flexability than the strict 6,000 years.

2. Too many people resurecting the tradition of the Rabbi that the 7000th year will be the messanic age, which tends to be date setting more or less and having God making plans for the 7000th year, as opposed to "The Lord could have come err this" and all the prophecies that gave the possibility of things ending in Bible times, 1844, soon after 1844, or any of the other "The Lord could have come err this." I understand a big part of Bible study is to study historically how the Lord could have set up the kingdom in the different time periods of the Bible. What happened? And what does this mean for the choices that I make and issues I will face.

3. We simply want to be fair to the Bible; and part of being fair is being fair to the varieties in how to translate the ages, respecting that the text is so ancient that it is hard to translate, and being fair to the geneologies to be consistant with the syle of geeologies from the world it was recorded in and not demand it fitting our modern world.

I believe that Mrs. White was right. That this is a fairly young world, created in 6 days and then the Sabbath day, and that the earth is young enough to remember the history recorded in Genesis. I hear about the ice age about 10,000 years ago and it does not ruffel my fethers. And I accept the fact that the Lord could have come err this, and I want to study to see what lessons God wanted them to learn so that when I am past that it would not be related to another "the Lord could have come err this"

[Gibs]

Wayfinder,

I find in some of the old writings, The Little Genesis and Enochs writings that the Jubilee calendar and the solar 7 day calendar were institued before earth and both carried into earth and in sync and Adam's first year on earth was a Jubilee year.

Also they are two timeclocks of God that will run throughout eternity.

1994 just happens to be the last Jubilee on earth before the 6,000 years are up. That would be 122 Jubilees and another jubilee yr. would be 6,027 yrs., so we see the finish must happen here soon. 122X49=5978 years, 123 Jubilees is 49 more = 6027.

Men didn't like the Jubilee calendar as they didn't want to give the land that seventh yr. it's sabbath to rebuild. Now the earth will get it's 1000 year sabbath starting soon now, which is one day with God. It's missed sabbaths will be made up.

The earth will rest, Jerimiah 4:23-28.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[wayfinder]

Gibs,

My understanding of the "Jubilee" calendar is that it is the timepiece for restoration, that is the restoration of God's authority over the whole earth. God accomplishes this restoration through His kingdom; therefore He must have a kingdom in the world, but not of the world. His kingdom is a kingdom of the heavens in the world. The calendar would begin with the fromation and appearance of His kingdom. In 1437 BCE God freed His people from slavery in Egypt and led them out into the wilderness to make a covenant with them to be His people/kingdom.

I am not taking issue with the idea that the Jubilee/Restoration calendar may be eternal, just that if my understanding of it is correct (that it keeps time for the restoration of God's authority) than with God's authority restored it would serve no specific purpose.

I use the definition Restoration calendar because that it what it kept the time for. For an Israelite Restoration occured every Sabbath year. For non Israelite, living in Israel, it was the Jubilee year.

Another thing, all prophecies that reveal the process and achievement of, restoration are calculated using a day/year principle; because the restoration calendar function is day/years. I understand that when this calendar ended all time-periods yet to be fulfilled are literal days. so all the time-periods in Revelation, except chapter 12, are literal days, months, years. All time-periods in Daniel chapter 12 are literal. If the 1335 days start on or around July 11, 2012 they will end in late Febuary or early March of 2016.

[Gibs]

wayfinder,

Every 50'th year the land went back to the original family. That was to be a new beginning for them. If a family got hard up they could sell and the buyer could reap the profits till the 50'th yr. and then it returned back, this was how God would have it.

All Jubilee yrs. were new beginnings and a lot of them are chronicled in the Bible.

The yr. for a day prophecies are all on the Jubilee calendar

The earth is His and He gives it to whomever He wants. Robbery of the earth will soon be righted.

The 50'th yr. always fell on the first yr. of the next cycle of sevens. It was also a sabbatical for the land, 2 yrs in a row the land was left to rest at each Jubilee.

The Jubilee calendar gives many deeper understandings and it is worth knowing fully all about it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Ellen White said that the earth had been in a state of sin for 4000 years at the birth of Christ.

So that makes it that Jesus is coming in 2031 A.D.?

[BobRyan]

I am not predicting anything -

I have no idea how long Adam was in Eden before he sinned and I don't know if the 4000 year number is "to the minute" or not -- same with 6000 years. All I know is that very soon our 6000 year clock will expire.

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

And when that clock expires I'm not ready to put any significant event into play as a result. Maybe it means something, maybe it's a red herring. Adam was looking for the Messiah soon, so was Noah, and so forth. Thats always been the case, it is as God wants it to be. I'll keep looking, as has mankind since the beginning. I will not tire or give up, I will not say the Lord has delayed His return. He WILL come, I know not when. The real question is: When is YOUR personal probation up? Today? Tommorow? Soon,,, even at the door? We know not when...

[Kevin H]

So why is the anti-Jesus manuscript the preferred one over the ages as recorded in the Bible Jesus used or the Bible that Paul used?

[Dr. Rich]

DR. Rich,

You ask, "Gibs, can you please explain to me how Jesus can come like a thief as in the days of Noah when NO ONE KNEW what was going to happen-after the 7th Trumpet blows an after the first 5 bowls or wrath and after the first 5 plagues have taken place? It is my opion that this would be impossible. Therefore, the coming like a thief is an event prior to the time of trouble in order to seal the 144k and 5 wise virgins so they can witness to the bride during the time of trouble."

I am of the opinion the 144 k are about all sealed now if not already and about to be sent forth for the last call to the inhabitants of this world. You hold a different perspective I know but what is your take on that. And does HE come as a thief to the wise virgins? It is said to be at midnite, and that could mean the darkest hour of this earths history.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

What do you mean that all of the 144k are sealed now? Does that mean they are now blamless as found in Rev. 14:5? If your understand was true, then wouldn't we have the proof for this? Where are they? I will gladly pay someone 10k to show me one of them! I would sit at his feet and learn the real truth because this person would NOT LIE!

Midnight means spiritually dark--as it states in Matt. 25:14-30, the Master could NOT be contacted to help them make a decision on what to do.

What I see as different than Wayfinder, is that the 1335 days is the time period for learning the real truth and sometime during this period or at the end, Jesus comes like a thief to seal them. Of course they are the ones to wake up the sleeping servants for the bride, but when this happens I don't know right now. Right now as things are, I don't see many in the SDA church who will become the 5 wise virgins. Most, if not about all of them, firmly believe that they are in need of nothing because they are saved by grace.

Why do I believe this, because just look at this forum, not many are here to seek the real truth. I am a truth seeker so anything that anyone sees is wrong, please correct me by showing me my error from the words of Jesus.

[Windsor]

"....which should naturally include his years of sinless living in Eden and not just his years of living outside Eden."

NATURALLY should include his years in the garden? Nothing "natural" about such wild speculation, it's a pure guess, at best.

It's just "natural" that the length of Adams life measured in years wouldn't have begun until he LOST immortality.

Your Bible-less argument stating that Adam lived much longer than 930 years is the same type of argument utilized to state that creation took place over 6 long periods of time rather than 6 literal 24 hour days. Adam lived in the garden with 24 hour time periods just like the rest of us. The Earth completed its rotation around the sun in about 365 days just like it does for us. God commanded Adam and Eve to have sex and produce babies. Did the two of them sit around for untold thousands of years before finally getting around to obedience?

"Genesis 5:5

So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died."

ALL the days, not just the post-fall days.

[ClubV12]

Your Bible-less argument stating that Adam lived no longer than 930 years is pure speculation because there is no source, biblical or from Ellen White that specifies how long Adam lived BEFORE sin entered.

[Windsor]

Your Bible-less argument stating that Adam lived no longer than 930 years is pure speculation because there is no source, biblical or from Ellen White that specifies how long Adam lived BEFORE sin entered.

There's no speculation when we have the sure word of scripture saying ALL the days. Not some of the days. Not the days after sin. Not a random collection of days. ALL the days. ALL the days of Adam were 930 years. You can't stand on the Bible with your human speculation.

[ClubV12]

Thats your interpretation of that verse, like myself, there are many others that don't accept that interpretation. All the days of Adam, following his departure from the garden makes just as much sense.

[Windsor]

Thats your interpretation of that verse, like myself, there are many others that don't accept that interpretation. All the days of Adam, following his departure from the garden makes just as much sense.

It would make as much sense if it stated "ALL the days following his depature" but it doesn't. You seem to think when God said to be fruitful and multiply that Adam disobeyed for thousands of years. I don't. Is this how you justify the Earth appearing to be billions of years old? Because God didn't count time (except apparently for the first 7 24 hour days) until after Adam sinned? That also disagrees with Ellen White's statement on the Earth being about 6000 years old.