Doomsday Date

[ClubV12]

I don't know how long Adam lived in the garden before sin, no one does, the best we can do is speculate.

How long have the other inhabited planets, also with a tree of knowledge, lived in their garden without sin? Millions of years perhaps? Thousands? A mere "6,000" or so? We simply don't know.

Adam ate from the tree of life, and yet others lived longer than him. The only reasonable conclusion is that the years of Adam's recorded life started AFTER he stopped eating from the tree of life.

While Windsor and I can agree on many important points, on this issue it appears we will simply have to disagree graciously.

Of course I won't hold Ellen White to any specific number, like 6,000 years. But I believe it is clear THAT referrence begins after sin. How long the earth was here before sin is entirely unknown. No biblical or SOP referrence is made.

[olger]

We have until the end of this year. Plenty of time, sheeesh.

[Windsor]

No hard feelings. I have to agree to disagree all the time. I have a wife you know.

[Gibs]

There is another reasoning on this subject and that is, with God a day is a thousand years.

It don't matter then when Adam and Eve sinned then as they did so in the first day.

Now God told them in the day they sinned they would die. Sure enough, Adam died before the end of that first day. 1+5=6 and the seventh is a Sabbath for a tired worn out polluted eath.

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

It will be this way for a thousand years, Satan chained here, none to deceive.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Kevin H]

One problem with the application of the text about a day with the Lord is a thousand years, is that it talking about the greatness and self existiveness and eternal nature of God. It is not one of the cycles that we can apply to day texts. We are given the key for the cyclic applications in Leviticus 25 and some modification in Deuteronomy. However those who are making day-thousand year applications are being unfair to the exogetical meanings of the texts. They are refusing the key for the cyclic applications of Leviticus 25 and pushing the meaning of Leviticus 25 on the day/thousand years text.

I'm sorry but according to Leviticus a week is: Six literal days and the Sabbath. The 6 month growing periods and the Passover/Yom Kippur Sabbaths, 6 years and the Sabbatical year, and finally 6 Sabbatical years and the Jublee. Deuteronomy modifies it some by not focusing on the Jublee as all that was done at the Jublee was done in the Sabbatical year in the Northern Tribes.

Therefore we can, depending on the context have days meaning days, or months, or years, or Sabbatical years. From this we need to look at the context of the text to see if it is a cyclic application or not, and also from the context to see if it comes from the Preastly school or the Deuteronomic school, and if it is Deuteronomic then we don't have the day=sabbathical year option. (other wise we could read into Daniel 8:14 2300 sabbatical years, but Daniel's Bible teacher was Jeremiah, who was the high priest of the Deuteronomic school). In rejecting Leviticus and Deuteronomy which specifically is talking about how to interpet the word "day" in cyclic thought, was Moses lying?

Also, I notice again, since the ancient manuscripts have different dates for the Patrarchs, which gives us the age from 6,000 to 10,000 years, what makes the one that the Jews picked out of rejection of Jesus and not wanting the ages of the Patrarchs point to Jesus being the 7,000th year, to be the correct dates and superior to the other possible translations of these verses and the one for you to base your beliefs on?

[Kevin H]

Basically I have at least five problems with the using the 7 days of creation to apply to 7,000 years before the Lord comes.

1. The fact that it is built on applying the day to a thousand years when it comes to figuring out cycles, which is NOT one of the options in Leviticus or Deuteronomy when they are discussion this very subject. Moses only allows for day, month, year, and depending on the situation, Sabbathcal years. He does not place the thousand years as one of the day cycle equivalants.

2. The text saying that for the Lord a day is like a thousand years is NOT given in the context of the cycles to apply to a day but talking about a different issue.

3. It is unfair to the Bible as the ages are not crystal clear, looking at the possibilities of how to translate the ages we get a range from 6,000 years to 10,000 years. The followers of this view have just picked the list that made it into our Bibles.

4. That list got into our Bibles because the Massoretics took a way to translate then became very strict in counting the numbers of letters and making sure that one copy of the text was exactly like the others. However the list that they used to develop their ages was based on the Babylonian family of texts. There were a couple of reasons why they choose the Babylonian text instead of the other families of texts that Jesus and Paul used. One of these reasons is that in the major text in Judiasm in Jerusalem in Jesus' day if you add up the dates you would have Jesus initiating the 7000th year. Since a Jewish Rabbi forming the traditions of men, about a hundred years before Jesus came up with the creation week and thousand years and made the prediction that the Messiah was going to soo come since he understood the world to be 6,000 years and was about to turn 7,000 years. When Jesus came and the Jews rejected him as the Messiah, they wanted a list that pushed the 7000th year off into the future, so they used the list in the Babylon Bible to develop their list which developed into the Masseritic text and our Bible. But the Jewish rejection of Jesus is not a strong foundation to make that possible translation superior to any of the other translations of the manuscrips that can give us that 6,000 to 10,000 year window.

5. The begots were used in differnt ways in the ancient world besides father and son. They might be biological decent, or it could apply to offices (like how Belshazzar becomes Nebuchanzzar's son. They were not related and there were other kings between them). And also the ancient lists would not be directly father-son but the line with generations left out. We need to be fair to these facts of the text and not push a modern interpetation on them taking them out of their context.

[Gibs]

Kevin H,

I think you made a typo when you stated "7,000" yrs. above and Jesus comes.

It will be the termination of 6,000 yrs. Jesus comes gathers all of His Saints Alive and out of the grave and the earth will have it's long needed sabbath that man has neglected to do every 7'th yr besides the terrible destruction and pollution of it by mad modern man in mostly the last 200 yrs. That sabbath will be a thousand yrs.

To add a thought, God didn't lie and Adam didn't die that first "solar" day but in the day of all the eternal ones, His day. It will be the same with the redeemed when we become immortals.

6,000 yrs. man raising "Cain" on it and then it gets to rest 1,000 yrs.

All the redeemed will be in Heaven where He has already prepared a place for us to be with him those 1,000 yrs.

I read Enoch and more of the old writings and it is made clear especially by Enoch that earth starting day one with Adam would only go 6,000 yrs. and I find it a well established fact with the statement by Peter.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I guarantee we don't have many more yrs. left and all will see. 5 to 6 at the most! No I do not know the day,hr., month and can't be dead sure of the yr. but that we are that close. After this yr. 2012 I think all TRUE Christians will wish it was over but it isn't as soon as we would like. The real test of the "mettle" is coming.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

This time setting thing is ridiculous. I have in front of me right now the most recent chart I have come across from "1335 Futurists". This particular chart lists the "start" of the 1335 literal days as beginning in the Spring of 2027 and has the second coming in the fall of 2031.

Gib's says it's five or six years. Others have a very specific date. I believe Dr. Rich also specifies a specific date.

It's crazy, it's madness to even suggest an approximate date. 6,000 years, Jubilee Calendars, Twin Towers, President Bush. Gimme a break, the off shoots can't even agree on what decade! There all over the place with their "numbers". You might as well hook up with the Mayan's or Nostradomus if you want to "guess-a-matic" a date based on something.

We know not the time,,, end of story, done, period, leave it right there. Don't even suggest a time, frankly those that do sure look foolish to me. What we DO know, it is soon, it is at the door, get ready, for we know not the hour.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

No my friend we are to discern the signs of the times and most can not and will not because of a mindset they have. Can you not see it is closing down fast?

Lu 12:54 ¶ And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.

Lu 12:55 And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass.

Lu 12:56 "last part", ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time

Lu 12:57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Of course I, we, most of us, see it closing down. That doesn't mean I'm going to start speculating on any given time frame. 5, 6, 10 years from now. For me, for many, our probation could end at any moment.

[phkrause]

Agreed Club, I remember back in the 60s thinking this world would never last till I got to be 20 or married, etc. Than events seemed to slow down. Than when you start to think well things don't seem to be progressing that fast, all of a sudden God allows things to happen and you say, oh oh what I thought would take longer, looks like its gonna happen sooner. So as the Bible says, no knows, so we should always be in a state of being ready, but yet living our lives to witness for Christ by our example each and every day.

[Gibs]

Yes I agree, ClubV12 that our individual case could be decided at any time now. But time will go on for some yrs. yet but I know this, they are going to be tuff. Then before it's over they will get more than tuff.

The tune of all that look for many years will soon change, I think even Athiests to some extent. Too many are looking for things to turn around and get better. Be forewarned, it will not.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[tall73]

"God has not revealed to us the time when this message will close, or when probation will have an end." 1 S.M.191.

Thus we read, "Time will never be a test again. I saw some were getting a false excitement, arising from preaching time, that the third angel's message can stand on its own foundation, and that it needs not time to strengthen it, and that it will go with mighty power, and do its work, and will be cut short in righteousnesss." 1 S.M.188.

"Again and again have I been warned in regard to time setting. There will never again be a message for the people of God that will be based on time. We are not to know the definite time either for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit or for the coming of Christ." 1 S.M.188.

sky

Just to add to that.

Many who have called themselves Adventists have been time setters. Time after time has been set for Christ to come, but repeated failures have been the result. The definite time of our Lord's coming is declared to be beyond the ken of mortals. Even the angels who minister unto those who shall be heirs of salvation know not the day nor the hour. "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only." Because the times repeatedly set have passed, the world is in a more decided state of unbelief than before in regard to the near advent of Christ. They look upon the failures of the time setters with disgust; and because men have been so deceived, they turn from the truth substantiated by the word of God that the end of all things is at hand. {4T 307.1}

Those who so presumptuously preach definite time, in so doing gratify

the adversary of souls; for they are advancing infidelity rather than

Christianity. They produce Scripture and by false interpretation show a

chain of argument which apparently proves their position. But their failures show that they are false prophets, that they do not rightly interpret the language of inspiration. The word of God is truth and verity, but men have perverted its meaning. These errors have brought the truth of God for these last days into disrepute.

Testimonies vol 4, pg 307

Interestingly this quote has some striking similarities to Pastor Dowling's criticism of Miller in his book An Exposition of the Prophecies Supposed by William Miller to Predict the Second Coming of Christ in 1843, written back in 1840.

I have frequently been asked if I believe Mr. Miller to be sincere. I have invariably answered in the affirmative. I cannot but suppose that Mr. M. is a pious, well-meaning man. I would advise him, in conclusion, if he would escape the distress I know it would cause him in his old age to have been unintentionally instrumental in the spread of infidelity, to go home and preach Christ crucified to perishing sinners, which I have no doubt he is qualified to do, and to waste no more of a life which might be valuable if rightly spent, in vainly attempting to make known those times and seasons which God hath wisely concealed from the ken of mortals, and "put into His own power.

[Gibs]

The wise virgins have discerned the signs of the times and are ready, their lamps with plenty of "oil". They didn't know the exact time but close enough that they got ready. It will be the same again.

Re 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

It will be at the darkest hour of this world's history, "midnight" and but few are prepared and so unexpected he comes, as a thief.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Kevin H]

The wise virgins have discerned the signs of the times and are ready, their lamps with plenty of "oil". They didn't know the exact time but close enough that they got ready. It will be the same again.

Re 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

It will be at the darkest hour of this world's history, "midnight" and but few are prepared and so unexpected he comes, as a thief.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Gibs: Now this is a post that I can agree with!!!

Now I understand that Jesus started to take Adam and Eve's sin upon himself that very day and that is why they did not die that day. Also the implications was that the death would be that death that comes from sepperating from the life force, or what we call (since people usually have the death for the wearing out of the body first) the second death. Adam did not die that second death with in the thousand years of eating the fruit, he only had his body wear out and rest.

Also, if we are to take the day for a thousand years, then why did both Leviticus and Deuteronomy forget to tell us this option when they taught what they Hebrew and Biblical Cycles were. Could all three, Moses, and two editors (one possibly Isaiah, or someone in his inner circle, the other possibly Jeremiah or someone in his inner circle) either lie, or were to absent minded to miss this point when they are discussing the topic?

And there were the other issues I mentioned that you have not answered. And there is one other issue I believe I forgot to mention when I listed them (yet I seem to remember mentioning it) that the Bible and Mrs. White is full of "The Lord could have come err this" messages. If he was stuck on the 6.000 years/7,000 years then God is a lier in all the "The Lord could have come err this" messages.

I agree that we are living at the time where there are signs of the times coming together. We are seeing the rise of the federal reserve uniting the world into a 7th great world empire, healing the deadly wound, and it is a power that is controling who can buy and sell, closely connected with the banking families, including the Vatican banks.

[Gibs]

Kevin,

I'm dubious that it don't have to go on to the "APPOINTED TIME". I have read scripture to the effect that when the true gospel got to all in the world the end would come. But we must remember God has perfect foreknowledge.

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

We know it hasn't happened yet or the end would have happened. A verse below indicates He knew the day and hour.

Job 7:1 Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling?

Da 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Da 11:27 And both these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.

Mt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

On the 1,000 yrs. reckoning mortal man don't have even 1 of those thousand so we tend not to think on those terms. But reading Enoch now is a different story. The Apostles had Enoch's writings, I wish we had them all today. Enoch was told what to write by God while in Heven and then to take it and give them to men and they were to keep them to the consumation.

EGW does mention 6,000 yrs. numerous times and here is one,

"Satan’s work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God’s creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. “The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing.” Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. “The voice of a great multitude,” “as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings,” is heard, saying: “Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.” Revelation 19:6.—GC 673. {Hvn 130.1}

We are now very very close to that appointed time there is no doubt to any if they will just look at all the signs of the times.

You see when God told Adam and Eve in the day they sinned they would die. Their lives were not numbered yet in days or years for that matter and may have well under stood God was speaking of a thousand yr. day. I will have to stick with that understanding knowing what Enoch wrote on the matter.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Kevin wrote: We are seeing the rise of the federal reserve uniting the world into a 7th great world empire, healing the deadly wound, and it is a power that is controling who can buy and sell, closely connected with the banking families, including the Vatican banks.

____________________

Kevin, there won't be another great world empire. That is not what prophecy is foretelling. What prophecy is foretelling is that the church in the end takes the ascendancy (being in a position of dominance). The church will wear the crown meaning that she will receive the power of the State to enforce God's will upon all, giving rise to a false theocracy. First the churches of the so-called Protestants in the United States will wield the power of the State to enforce Sunday worship. It is said that the time will come when these churches will give their power to the papacy. The papacy will not be a great world empire but she, with the help of Satan who will perform signs and wonders in the sight of the whole world, will re-instate her lost supremacy. During the 1260 years of papal supremacy there was no great world empire. That ended with the fall of the Roman empire in A.D.476. After that there was never to be a great world empire again. The last days will be a return to the Dark Ages but only for a very short time.

sky

[Kevin H]

We need to keep studying and to be fair to the facts that we understand, and to be open to other facts. For me the issues that I have mentioned, such as the difficulty in the translations of the ages of the Patararchs, how ancient geneologies were used, the Lord could have come err this issues (see the Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy in the SDABC-- And while that article gives an overview, you could write sub articles applying it to the different periods of Biblical history and church history). And I wish I rememberd the reference for the article that Mrs. White wrote that I needed to read when I was at the seminary, where she down plays the 6,000 years. Dr. Gerity (and some other professors) have also pointed out that while in print Mrs. White's words consistantly read "6,000 years" that her handwritten manuscrips did not all read 6,000 years but had different numbers and the printers changed them all to 6,000 years to make it uniform.

The Adventist Theological Society has a point to agree on that the world is "about" 6,000 years old. Knowing several of the leaders of the ATS from when I was at the Seminary, they are quite flexable with the phrase "about" They accept into membership people believing that the world is as old as 21,000 years, but that has been the cap that they put on it. Most of those I knew of the ATS leadershp believe the world is from 7,000 to 10,000 years old, which is what you get taking the geneology, looking at translation issues but not accounting for ancient method of not including every generation. It is that geneology study that has some push back to 2100. There are others of our church leaders and religion professors, who are full seven litteral day creationists who go all the way back to around 60,000 years. That belief of the age of the earth is too old to be accepted by the ATS (last I heard for sure, but I've come across some things that appear the the ATS might be allowing for that age as two sepperate and different genetic studies, one microcondria DNA, and another was of tracking, both can trace everyone who is living to a woman who lived 60,000 years ago, a difference of a factor of 10, and with geneologys not listing everyone but the most important milestones of the family line can fesably make the geneologies of Genesis trace the family over those years)

So among our educated leadership the conservatives tend to hold the the world is 7,000 to 21,000 years old, and the more moderates go back to about 60,000. Of course since 7,000 and 21,000 and 60,000 are a lot closer to 6,000 than it is to the evolutionary idea that the earth is millions or billions of years old, they use the traditional age from Usher to indicate that we are creationists and say that the world is "about" 6,000.

Once again, many Jews, using the same geneologies and similar methods as you are using, and using the writings called the book of Enoch (which if I recall correctly was seen as one of the approcriaphal books written between the testaments) using similar or the same evidence as you are using, but with their Bibles where they understood the 6,000 years about to come to the end and expected the messiah to set up the kingdom and the end of the world two thousand years ago, changed geneologies when the time passed and all that happened was that the temple fell, the pain in the neck group called the Christians said that Jesus was the messiah and the world did not come to an end, they gave up the numbers in their Bible and took the numbers in the Babylonian Bible to push the 7,000th year into the future a couple of thousand years. However while they may or may not have been correct in their understanding of when the 7,000 year was. Jesus did come. Sadly they were so focused on the 7,000 year and speculation as to how that would be fulfilled that they rejected how Jesus wanted to end the world when he was here, so Jesus did part of what was predicted but needed to return to heaven for a second coming that will finish the predictions that could have been fulfilled back then had Jesus been accepted.

I hope this helps.

[Kevin H]

Kevin wrote: We are seeing the rise of the federal reserve uniting the world into a 7th great world empire, healing the deadly wound, and it is a power that is controling who can buy and sell, closely connected with the banking families, including the Vatican banks.

____________________

Kevin, there won't be another great world empire. That is not what prophecy is foretelling. What prophecy is foretelling is that the church in the end takes the ascendancy (being in a position of dominance). The church will wear the crown meaning that she will receive the power of the State to enforce God's will upon all, giving rise to a false theocracy. First the churches of the so-called Protestants in the United States will wield the power of the State to enforce Sunday worship. It is said that the time will come when these churches will give their power to the papacy. The papacy will not be a great world empire but she, with the help of Satan who will perform signs and wonders in the sight of the whole world, will re-instate her lost supremacy. During the 1260 years of papal supremacy there was no great world empire. That ended with the fall of the Roman empire in A.D.476. After that there was never to be a great world empire again. The last days will be a return to the Dark Ages but only for a very short time.

sky

Hi Sky:

Once again I don't make this stuff up, it is what was taught in our schools. But we have the immage of Daniel 2, I have to go to work so I can't review the whole thing, especially since our evangelistic meetings and basic Bible studies do an excellent job through the legs of iron.

However, Stephen Haskell and Dr. Windoni (spelling?) among others have been pointing out that the feet of iron and clay: In the Bible iron was the Roman empire, and clay is a symbol of what God molds and a symbol of the church. However we are finding in the feet that instead of being molded by God, here the clay is being molded by the iron. An empire of church-state is predicted, and sure enough we have the Holy Roman Empire being the next empire, which was very focused on the church and papal supericy.

Then comes the toes of iron and clay, the independent nations, then the Bible predicts that there will be an attempt for the toes to join together. Now our evangelists say they will not join together, but others looking closely at the text point out that the Bible does not say that they will not join together, only that they will not stay together but it will end in utter chaos, it will not work out. There is going to be a short unification of the world that will end in utter chaos. They will blame the failure of the system to those who refused to go allong with the system and thus things like the death decree etc.

The 7 parts of Nebuchaddnazars immage corrisponds to the 7 heads of Revelation 13: Babylon, Medio-Persia, Greece, Rome, The Holy Roman Empire (with Papal supremicy), the deady wound (Indepent nations, the crowns are on the horns, not on the head-- some of our artwork confuses us because they scatter the horns over all the heads, but study of the text indicated it is the deadly wound that has the horns and crowns on the horns), and the deadly wound being healed, and looking at say Revelation 18 and other things peppered through out Revelation, this last empire is not like the others of some great conquer, you are right that ended with Rome/or at least Charlomame and the Holy Roman Empire, although much of the Holy Roman empire was filling the vaccume left from Rome, so you are right. But the last empire is the toes, the horns are joining together in ecomomic cooperation, the power over buying and selling, and when Babylon falls the first to mourn are the merchants of the earth, or the great corporations, and there is a long shopping list of very expensive things from all over the world, things that would require a period of apperent peace and prosperity for the free transport of such a wide variety of expensive goods from all over the world.

I hope this helps.

[skyblue888]

thanks Kevin.

Did you mean this:

"The mingling of churchcraft and statecraft is represented by the iron and the clay. This union is weakening all the power of the churches. This investing the church with the power of the state will bring evil results." Bible Commentary, Vol.4,1108, bottom of right column.

sky

[Gail]

Quote:

Then comes the toes of iron and clay, the independent nations, then the Bible predicts that there will be an attempt for the toes to join together. Now our evangelists say they will not join together, but others looking closely at the text point out that the Bible does not say that they will not join together, only that they will not stay together but it will end in utter chaos, it will not work out. There is going to be a short unification of the world that will end in utter chaos. They will blame the failure of the system to those who refused to go allong with the system and thus things like the death decree etc.

Hmm... thinking about this...

[Dr. Rich]

Gail, God NEVER predicts anything as He knows what is going to happen. That's called prophecy. The head of BRI is ignorant of this as he wrote in Adventist World that God predicted things to happen. How nuts was that?

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

The wise virgins have discerned the signs of the times and are ready, their lamps with plenty of "oil". They didn't know the exact time but close enough that they got ready. It will be the same again.

Re 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

It will be at the darkest hour of this world's history, "midnight" and but few are prepared and so unexpected he comes, as a thief.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Gibs: Now this is a post that I can agree with!!!

Now I understand that Jesus started to take Adam and Eve's sin upon himself that very day and that is why they did not die that day. Also the implications was that the death would be that death that comes from sepperating from the life force, or what we call (since people usually have the death for the wearing out of the body first) the second death. Adam did not die that second death with in the thousand years of eating the fruit, he only had his body wear out and rest.

Also, if we are to take the day for a thousand years, then why did both Leviticus and Deuteronomy forget to tell us this option when they taught what they Hebrew and Biblical Cycles were. Could all three, Moses, and two editors (one possibly Isaiah, or someone in his inner circle, the other possibly Jeremiah or someone in his inner circle) either lie, or were to absent minded to miss this point when they are discussing the topic?

And there were the other issues I mentioned that you have not answered. And there is one other issue I believe I forgot to mention when I listed them (yet I seem to remember mentioning it) that the Bible and Mrs. White is full of "The Lord could have come err this" messages. If he was stuck on the 6.000 years/7,000 years then God is a lier in all the "The Lord could have come err this" messages.

I agree that we are living at the time where there are signs of the times coming together. We are seeing the rise of the federal reserve uniting the world into a 7th great world empire, healing the deadly wound, and it is a power that is controling who can buy and sell, closely connected with the banking families, including the Vatican banks.

WHAT? Matthew 25:1-13 shows that NONE of them were ready as ALL of the ten virgins slept thru the coming of Jesus as a thief! And NO, Jesus can't come until a group of people know the real truth (no lie in their mouths-Rev. 14:5) and notice these are the first fruits or the 144k bondservants of Jesus Christ). Since EGW's visions and revelations were wrong, why should anyone use her writings to establish anything? Clearly, she thought that the next thing to happen was that Jesus would come in the clouds--that the coming like a thief was the same event as the coming in the clouds-this being impossible!

[skyblue888]

The coming as a thief is not the coming of Jesus in the clouds but the close of probation for the world.

sky

[phkrause]

The coming as a thief is not the coming of Jesus in the clouds but the close of probation for the world.

sky

Exactly, because you could go outside and get hit by a car and your probation is closed! Which easily equals "the coming as a thief."