Stand up and Be Counted -

[phkrause]

No one keeps 'em - So ALL are condemned.

Have to agree with Dr Rich. Just because someone keeps the 10 commandments doesn't mean we are not sinners, does it?? We keep his commandments because we love him, as Gibs has mentioned, not because we have to. I believe and know that is a big difference.

[phkrause]

Actually, I don't see a significant difference between the two concepts. Legalisim and the love of God. In either case, it's about the definition and understanding.

It was love when Noah got in the boat and the angel sealed the door. It was love when Sodom was destroyed. Love based on the law, that hasn't changed.

[Woody]

Quote:

Have to agree with Dr Rich.

I'm gunna pin this one on my fridge.

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

The Love of God is to do His Commandments and they are not grievious.

The commandments condemn.

The Love of God - SAVES.

Ok now, don't start sounding like the evangelicals Woody. Let's sound like Adventists, not Evangelicals who all talk about love love love all the time, that they neglect obedience!

Remember, the commandments CONDEMN the sinner--ones who are under the law, not those who under Grace.

Under the law = Commandment Breaking (because you're under the law's condemnation for willfully violating them)

Under Grace = Commandment Keeping! (because when you're saved by Grace, you receive "power" and "strength" to overcome sin and obey God's Holy Precepts)

If you willfully break God's commandments, then you come under the law's power and condemnation.

The law only kills the sinner--the ones willfully violating them.

Christ saves those who repent and turn away from sin (the transgression of the law).

[Lysimachus]

The opposite of Legalism is....

...Antinomianism!

Both are just as bad!

A true Christian lives by faith.

But it is a faith that works by love and purifies the soul.

[ClubV12]

The concept of "perfection" is an illusive one, will we EVER attain it on THIS earth short of being changed in the twinkling of an eye? Woody doesn't think so, perhaps, it comes back to the definition. What IS "perfection"?

As I've mentioned before, I like Daniel 12:7 for my definition: "When the power of the holy people is broken, then shall the end come" (paraphrased to some degree).

There is a group of people that will live through the seven last plagues, this group has a number of characteristics. They are in perfect harmony. They have put away all known sin. They TRY to call up something in their life that has not been confessed, they search their soul diligently for any impurity. They are deeply concerned they are not worthy, but cannot find any specific fault, any known sin. They are not yet "changed" into immortality, they are "sealed" on this earth, as perfect in every way. And yet, they are fully aware of their condition being as "filthy rags", while they cannot pinpoint a fault, they know they are not worthy. They see the great and high calling of the LAW, the closer you get to "perfection" the more you see you cannot achieve it. There only hope, their only safety, is total reliance of the merits of Christ, which He has offered to the Father on their behalf. The power of "self" is totally broken in every way, the total reliance on the blood of Jesus has replaced it. THEN shall the end come.

....meanwhile, as we stumble along the path, TODAY, we are making decisions in every aspect of our life that will prepare us for this "sealing" event. TODAY is the day to begin to put away every known sin. To confess and deal with every known fault. We cannot "wait" to somehow be miraculously changed, we do have a part to play. And yet, "we" can do nothing without Him. Our "part", therefore, is to recognize the power of prayer, our reliance on Him. When we "sin" it IS a choice, we can choose to breath a prayer at their moment, to drop to our knee's, to turn away, or continue on. It's ALWAYS a choice, by giving up on the concept that we CAN overcome, we are already defeated. It is not the act, is the failure to ask God for the strength to overcome and to bring our will into play, sanctified by Him. It is a work we must do together, hand in hand, as we stumble along.

Consider this: How often did Jesus pray? He had no power of Himself, he totally relied on His Father for support. I am not yet there, daily, I still decide that "I can do this", my power is not yet broken. My prayer life not yet mature, I LIKE to sin, sometimes, to often, I CHOOSE the wrong path. As I get closer, I understand that, that choice I must make. To pray, right then and there, not wait, or to engage in that which I know will displease the Father. Sometimes, you literally have to just engage your own personal God given fortitude to make that choice. We DO have a distinct roll to play, a choice to make. It can be done, perfection IS possible.

[Woody]

Thanks Marcos - some good thoughts.

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

Everything Imperfect Will Be Put Away - "When our earthly labors are ended, and Christ shall come for His faithful children, we shall then shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of our Father. But before that time shall come, everything that is imperfect in us will have been seen and put away. All envy and jealousy and evil surmising and every selfish plan will have been banished from the life."--Letter 416, 1907. {3SM 427.1}

[Woody]

I think I will be the exception Marcos. You know - God does wink on occasions.

[ClubV12]

Hmmmm,,,, this "winking" thing may be why there will be so many martyrs and deaths of God's chosen people before the seven last plagues are poured out. During THAT time, there will be no "winking". We must stand in the sight of a Holy God, perfectly. Jesus will have left the Most Holy place, He will have put on the robes of wrath, He will not be interceding on our behalf.

Should the Lord decide that I cannot stand that test as that time and as a result it would be best for me to "rest" through that time period, I'm OK with that. But before that "rest" comes, I will strive to be among that small group determined to go through to the end.

[Woody]

If God wanted us to be perfect during that time - He would do what is needed even if it means a miracle. For that is what it would take for me to stand.

[Woody]

Quote:

I will strive to be among that small group determined to go through to the end.

I'm not going to be striving anymore than anyone else has who is saved. It's GOD who does it all anyways . It is HE who will have to strive if it is to be done. All I can do is give my heart to Him just like all the saved in history have done.

[ClubV12]

Sister White says we are to strive to be among the 144,000.

That doesn't mean putting your feet up on the coffee table (Pero table?) and waiting for some miracle to come and zap you into perfection!

It's an active statement, like the statement in the bible saying "Believe on the Lord". The word believe is an active word, take action, do something, get involved.

[Woody]

If God is doing the work - one doesn't have to be striving. It will be a natural occurance.

[ClubV12]

Well, I'll have to go with Sister White on this one Woody. "Strive" being an active word, involving personal effort (work).

[Woody]

I think we might disagree on the meaning of 'work' in this setting. Our 'work' is to have a relationship with Jesus. That's what I will 'strive' to have. But if correctly done - there ain't much strivin' for it is a joy.

So it is "I" who will stick with Ellen White.

[ClubV12]

Ideally it is a "joy", but the harsh reality is, sometimes it's not. Not at first anyway. Sister White notes that some fall away from the faith simply because they grow tired of doing the all the things good Christians need/should do. She is recognizing the harsh reality of life, we don't always "like" to do that which we know we need to do. She is not excusing it either, those who fall away will literally be lost for eternity, another harsh reality.

How then does this "joy" aspect come into play? It doesn't happen overnight has been my experience. Often I just do the things that I know are the right things to do, because thats what society expects, or the civil law demands, or the church folks need/want to see or that I know is right. Not from a joyous spirit, but just because it's something I need to do. Something I need to learn. Something I need to establish a habit doing, a rewiring of my brain. I trust that in due time it will become a joy. Until then, I do because I know Jesus said I should, and I don't always need to ask "why?". Just do it. Will I grow tired of doing things that way and leave the church at some point as a result? It's always possible, we certainly see that with many folks.

I am finding, at time goes on, that it DOES make sense! It IS reasonable! I've concluded, THIS is the best way to live, heaven or not. This lifestyle, has a lot of good things to offer. I wonder what else I'm missing out on? I bet it's some "good" stuff and I haven't learned it yet! :)

[Woody]

Notice I said that having a relationship with Jesus is a joy:

Quote:

Our 'work' is to have a relationship with Jesus. That's what I will 'strive' to have. But if correctly done - there ain't much strivin' for it is a joy.

And you jumped into saying that all your works were not a joy.

I have to wonder why you jump into works so easily. Works are not your part - but God's part IN you. Your works are worthless if they are not done out of joy and from GOD. If they are done and you don't experience JOY - then they are not from God. ANd they are worthless.

[Overaged]

No I am not a legalist to believe in keeping His commandments. They are in my heart and my hearts disire to do them. I died of the old man and then was born a new creature in Him and He in me.

Now my will is to do His will and my love is to do His Love, revealed in His law of Love.

And He said,

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Seek Bible Truth At Any Cost

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 1 John 5:3. {CTr 78.1}

It was a great sacrifice Christ made for us in dying for us upon the cross. What are we willing to sacrifice for His love? Jesus says, “If ye love me, keep my commandments”not to select out one or two or nine, but the whole ten. All His commandments must be kept. John tells us of those who pretend to love but do not obey God’s requirements. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”“For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.” {CTr 78.2}

[ClubV12]

How is it, Woody, that you are so quick to jump into salvation by grace and ignore works?

When Sister White first received the health message divine revelations, she went through a physical battle to begin the transformation in her life style. It was quite literally "hard work". She did not pray and receive some instant miracle. She did not LIKE TO EAT BREAD, for instance. When she saw that that was to be an important aspect of this "new diet" she should undertake, it was a real battle. She denied herself food altogether, she determined that when she got "hungry enough", then she would eat the right foods. At first, she could only take a morsel of bread about the size of a dollar. I assume she was speaking of a coin dollar, but perhaps a paper doller, she does not specify. She feared that her system required other foods, that she would surely faint without them. Which reminds me of a drug addict thinking they HAVE to have their drug or they will faint, or worse. And they might! But they MUST make the change, in faith, if for no other reason.

In time she came to enjoy bread, to embrace it, to eat it with joy and thanksgiving, but not at first, she had to WORK at it. Self determination, denial of self, an effort must be forth, "work" must be done.

How do those who choose to eat cheese, for instance, justify that when the counsel is clear? Cheese, we are told, is wholly unfit for food. It does not matter if we do or don't understand that medically, scientifically or rationally. We either believe the Lords messenger or we don't. Same for coffee and many other aspects of health reform. When will it be time to "get serious"? When Jesus works some miracle in your life to take away the desire for unhealthful foods? You will wait in vain. There is a WORK you must do, a step you must take, a determination that must be made. A choice to believe and follow, regardless of whether you find it a "joy" or not. First comes faith, joy will follow in due time, if and when you fully surrender.

I will not judge those who choose to eat whatever they want, whenever they want. At the same time, the counsel is clear on diet and health reform and I will not ignore it or fail to uphold that counsel by pen and voice. Some will say I'm a "legalist", no I am not. I am simply repeating the counsel, let every man do with it as he see's fit.

[Gibs]

The big question here now may be since much has been discussed and ideas aired and some good reasoning by all is,

Is it possible to be born again from above without full repentance? Does not one have to be born again from above, meaning spiritually of Him.

The old man must be killed, self must die before the new man can come in, the new man being He in you and you in Him, hearts and will bonded in union of one.

Can one achieve the goal without REPENTANCE?

It does require faith and that is one of the first work it does, Repent.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[cheddar]

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 1 John 5:3. {CTr 78.1}

It was a great sacrifice Christ made for us in dying for us upon the cross. What are we willing to sacrifice for His love? Jesus says, “If ye love me, keep my commandments”not to select out one or two or nine, but the whole ten. All His commandments must be kept. John tells us of those who pretend to love but do not obey God’s requirements. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”“For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.” {CTr 78.2}

[skyblue888]

The big question here now may be since much has been discussed and ideas aired and some good reasoning by all is,

Is it possible to be born again from above without full repentance? Does not one have to be born again from above, meaning spiritually of Him.

The old man must be killed, self must die before the new man can come in, the new man being He in you and you in Him, hearts and will bonded in union of one.

Can one achieve the goal without REPENTANCE?

It does require faith and that is one of the first work it does, Repent.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

"Some seem to feel that they must be on probation and must prove to the Lord that they are reformed before they can claim the blessing. But these dear souls may claim the blessing even now. They must has His grace, the Spirit of Christ, (the blessing) to help their infirmities, or they cannot form a Christian character." Faith & Works,38.

And if the above statement is not clear enough, here is another similar one:

"He who will lay hold of Christ's righteousness need not wait one moment that he may blot out his own sins. He need not wait until he has made a suitable repentance fefore he may take hold upon Christ's righteousness. We do not understand the matter of salvation. It is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." Faith & Works,64.

These two statements clearly teach that without the grace of God, the Spirit of Christ, which is the blessing, we cannot repent and overcome as Jesus overcame.

So what comes first, repentance or the blessing?

Jesus loves to have us come to Him (daily) just as we are, sinful, helpless, dependent, trusting wholly in the merits of His infinite sacrifice in order to become one with Him and "His righteousness accomplishes everything" as it is "made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God." Faith & Works, 27; Testimonies to Ministers, 92.

Of course, as Marcos said, if we fall we have an Advocate at the right hand of God who is faithful to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. But the aim is to overcome as Jesus, in His humanity, overcame.

So, Gibs, do you agree that before we can repent and overcome we must have God's blessing, His grace, the Spirit of Christ working in us both to will and to do God's good pleasure?

sky

[Woody]

How is it, Woody, that you are so quick to jump into salvation by grace and ignore works?

When Sister White first received the health message divine revelations, she went through a physical battle to begin the transformation in her life style. It was quite literally "hard work". She did not pray and receive some instant miracle. She did not LIKE TO EAT BREAD, for instance. When she saw that that was to be an important aspect of this "new diet" she should undertake, it was a real battle. She denied herself food altogether, she determined that when she got "hungry enough", then she would eat the right foods. At first, she could only take a morsel of bread about the size of a dollar. I assume she was speaking of a coin dollar, but perhaps a paper doller, she does not specify. She feared that her system required other foods, that she would surely faint without them. Which reminds me of a drug addict thinking they HAVE to have their drug or they will faint, or worse. And they might! But they MUST make the change, in faith, if for no other reason.

In time she came to enjoy bread, to embrace it, to eat it with joy and thanksgiving, but not at first, she had to WORK at it. Self determination, denial of self, an effort must be forth, "work" must be done.

How do those who choose to eat cheese, for instance, justify that when the counsel is clear? Cheese, we are told, is wholly unfit for food. It does not matter if we do or don't understand that medically, scientifically or rationally. We either believe the Lords messenger or we don't. Same for coffee and many other aspects of health reform. When will it be time to "get serious"? When Jesus works some miracle in your life to take away the desire for unhealthful foods? You will wait in vain. There is a WORK you must do, a step you must take, a determination that must be made. A choice to believe and follow, regardless of whether you find it a "joy" or not. First comes faith, joy will follow in due time, if and when you fully surrender.

I will not judge those who choose to eat whatever they want, whenever they want. At the same time, the counsel is clear on diet and health reform and I will not ignore it or fail to uphold that counsel by pen and voice. Some will say I'm a "legalist", no I am not. I am simply repeating the counsel, let every man do with it as he see's fit.

If I were you - I would not enlist the example of Ellen White as far as the Health Message goes. It took her 30 years to overcome her addiction to meat etc. Yeah - she had moments where she gained victory and followed her own advice. But she always slipped back to her old ways.

[Overaged]

This is an excellent example of why I stopped listening to Ellen White a long time ago.

God created all the stars and all the planets in every galaxy. He created all the angels and every human being, but somehow we get it in our minds that he’s not powerful enough to fix the sin problem in our lives. God did not need our help to create us and does need our help to redeem us. Jesus asked a question before he left and I’m afraid of the answer.

We should all have a healthy fear of that answer cheddar. That is a very stark question that Jesus asked; but we should not be afraid when all Ellen White does is to quote scripture. The problem is not with her, but with our understanding thereof. And I am not saying anything of you personally. Just that this is a common problem.

I liked what you said re how God made all the universe; yet we so often do not think He is not powerful enough to fix the sin problem in our lives. This is so true. It boils down to trust in Him.