Stand up and Be Counted -

[Gibs]

I'm afraid the faith that most have is that God will make them an android, a machine, and program our minds computer like. Well I got news for those of that idea. His beloved ones are totally free with a free will and mind set to do His will because they have found His way, His law and desire for us is what they too desire also and are in one accord. There is no forcing and no galling but free men and women within His will.

Not androids or machines, He isn't going to do that. A machine experiences no joy and neither would the creator for long.

The faith referred to is the faith of His presence within that we too can walk as He walked. The victory walk as He did and overcomers of the world and our old sin and ways which we died of when repenting and then being born again.

If one don't repent, die of self, and be born again from above that faith will never be in him. That faith is the faith of Jesus Christ. If you have it,

Re 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Now let's ask the question,

Lu 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

That FAITH is dwindling rapidly! It will be the FEW as He said would find it,

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Woody, I have seen the "argument" that it took Ellen White 30 years to adapt to the health message and the question of meat in particular.

That argument, like so many other claims of inconsistency of bible verses and SOP quotes does not hold water. It simply means the person using it does not understand the issue. Worse, in some cases, it means the person using that argument rejects the Spirit of Prophecy as a divine source of wisdom. But even worse than that, some profess to believe in the Testimonies while at the same time making them of no effect!!

The Testimonies interpret themselves, if you would seriously study the issue you would see there is no inconsistency at all in Ellen Whites views and counsel concerning health and in particular a meat diet. A mere surface study of either the bible or the SOP will in many cases leave one MORE confused than when they started!

[Lysimachus]

If God is doing the work - one doesn't have to be striving. It will be a natural occurance.

I think it's both Woody.

When God sees that you exercise your will, to put forth effort to overcome sin and do what is right, He sends strength to help you, because He really sees that you want to overcome.

When you sit down on a chair, it takes your will to do that. When you get up, you have to put forth the effort to get up. God doesn't just climb inside of your body and suddenly start moving you around like a robot.

God does, provide you, however, with spiritual energy and power to aid you in your decision.

But this is Biblical, not Ellen White:

Luke 13:24 - "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able."

2 Cor. 12:9 - "And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. "

So Grace provides "strength" and "power".

1 Peter 5:8-10 - "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you."

[Woody]

Woody, I have seen the "argument" that it took Ellen White 30 years to adapt to the health message and the question of meat in particular.

That argument, like so many other claims of inconsistency of bible verses and SOP quotes does not hold water. It simply means the person using it does not understand the issue. Worse, in some cases, it means the person using that argument rejects the Spirit of Prophecy as a divine source of wisdom. But even worse than that, some profess to believe in the Testimonies while at the same time making them of no effect!!

The Testimonies interpret themselves, if you would seriously study the issue you would see there is no inconsistency at all in Ellen Whites views and counsel concerning health and in particular a meat diet. A mere surface study of either the bible or the SOP will in many cases leave one MORE confused than when they started!

Please provide a specific date as to when Ellen White overcame her addictions and started observing her health message. Then we can start talking.

[Gail]

What does that tell you?

It doesn't say that EGW was wrong in taking so long. All that is saying that like the woman who had 7 demons cleaned out of her, that sometimes it doesn't come all at once.

It says lots about how patient and merciful we should be when dealing with what we see as faults in others.

We can still praise God for what He HAS done in us and where He is bringing us :)

[Woody]

What does that tell you?

It doesn't say that EGW was wrong in taking so long. All that is saying that like the woman who had 7 demons cleaned out of her, that sometimes it doesn't come all at once.

It says lots about how patient and merciful we should be when dealing with what we see as faults in others.

We can still praise God for what He HAS done in us and where He is bringing us

As another poster used to say:

BINGO

[Lysimachus]

Hey, that's my phrase!

I always say BINGO! :D

[Woody]

Hey, that's my phrase!

I always say BINGO!

Well PLEASE - go ahead and say it again.

[Naomi]

What does that tell you?

It doesn't say that EGW was wrong in taking so long. All that is saying that like the woman who had 7 demons cleaned out of her, that sometimes it doesn't come all at once.

It says lots about how patient and merciful we should be when dealing with what we see as faults in others.We can still praise God for what He HAS done in us and where He is bringing us

[ClubV12]

It didn't take Ellen White 30 years to understand and accept the message on meat in her diet because she was a slow learner or because she struggled with the issue or because she didn't fully grasp it.

Here's the reality she and many others in her time and place were faced with:

What do you eat when your on the road in the 1800's? Where are the restaurants? The food stores? The markets? How much money do you have if they DID exist?

James and Ellen White deprived themselves of food early on in the growth of the church. As a result, they literally got sick from a poor diet. You have to apply common sense to the health message in all regards. What works for some people does not work for all people in all circumstances. There were times, over the next thirty years when it was difficult for the Whites to obtain an adequate diet. At times the alternatives were pretty stark, starve or eat some meat if that was all that was available. Which she and James did from time to time as the necessity arose.

WHEN is it time to adopt the health message for you? It varies from person to person, but we have some guidelines. As Dr. Kellogg worked diligently to provide alternative foods it was "time". Today we have many choices to replace a meat diet in America. Available to most, but not all. When the Lord provideds a subsitute and a means, it is time to move forward. Such was not the case for the early Adventists, the Whites and many others.

Her Testimony to some was that they should stop eating meat right away! Like the man who owned a butcher shop and daily filled his table with all kinds of meat. It was the main course at every meal. This was not the occasional problem of obtaining something to eat while your on the road, as many travelers faced. This was a diet that was literally killing his family!

In all things, moderation, common sense, reality must apply. Prophets and preachers do not get a pass from observing the laws of health, the laws of nature. God is no respector of persons. There was a Pastor who baptized a great many people on the same day in a river. He caught pneumonia and died! He failed to observe the practical application of God's laws of nature and paid the ultimate price.

James and Ellen White suffered from malnutrition because they denied themselves good food to spend the money on tracts and promoting the work. And God blessed the work, but the Whites were STILL subject to the laws of nature and they paid a price in their health. Looking back, Ellen White realized this was a mistake, we must find a reasonable balance in all things. The laws of God, the laws of nature. The laws of nature are fundamentally what the health message is all about! Much of it is common sense, but we have more information than the typical American has. We may not understand, we can wait until science proves it, or we can step out in faith.

Cheese, for example, is wholly unfit for food, Woody. Today we have a multitude of items to replace it, there is no reasonable excuse to continue it's use. Instead, we justify our using it by looking to Ellen White and saying, "Well it took her thirty years, so I'll wait." And what KIND of cheese was she talking about anyway? Excuses, the heart is desperately wicked, fully capable of making an endless variety of excuses. You can point to scientific and medical research as your "excuse", many do. They wait until it is "proven" before accepting some new truth. Some step out in faith.

In the end, by the early 1900's, there was no need for Ellen White to continue eating meat in any regard. Obtaining a good diet was no longer an issue. When she personally witnessed the slaughter of an animal, it all became clear. It was "time" for her to put it away entirely, based as much on health concerns as a broken heart for the animals. In that respect, she would make PETA proud on that basis alone.

There really is nothing to discuss, nothing to argue. The health message is not about what Ellen White personally did or didn't do. The counsel stands as divine revelation from the throne of God, or it doesn't. The question is: What will YOU do with it? Quit looking at people or you will surely take your eyes off Jesus.

[ClubV12]

I am also reminded of a couple of missionaries serving in a remote part of Alaska. Should they become "vegans" and literally starve to death? Common sense must apply in all cases. The butcher who relies heavily on meat for every meal, must be aware of the dangers. The circumstances have to be weighed, which is exactly what she counsels. Some foods do no agree with some people, she says we should avoid them. I say, "Duh"!!! So simple, and yet people STILL reject and resist. Health reform is a personal endeavor, we have some broad guidelines that apply to all, and should be put in place quickly. Like unclean meats, heavy deserts, lots of sugar, coffee, tea, etc. These are "no brainers" there is no excuse, period. You just THINK there are.

There is much that has to be carefully considered on an individual basis, time and place must be factored in.

[Dr. Rich]

Yeah. I will overcome just about as much as the thief on the cross overcame.

Hmmm, Now read Matt. 27: 38-44 and Mark 15:27,32 and read what John wrote about it too. The eyewitnesses have the thieves cursing Jesus the whole time until He died. Only Luke wrote what He did and his story does not agree with the eyewitnesses at all! Would not one think that IF that event took place it would have been very, very important? Huh?

Many of the stories told my Luke can't be verified as the truth! If you want to bet your soul upon the hearsay evidence of one who never knew Jesus and refused to name those who gave him the information he wrote about, then that is your choice! Could be, that those who have 'blind faith' on Lukes and Paul's writings for their belief are the ones who will hear Jesus tell them to depart for He never knew them. After all, who else would Jesus say this to?

[Dr. Rich]

I am also reminded of a couple of missionaries serving in a remote part of Alaska. Should they become "vegans" and literally starve to death? Common sense must apply in all cases. The butcher who relies heavily on meat for every meal, must be aware of the dangers. The circumstances have to be weighed, which is exactly what she counsels. Some foods do no agree with some people, she says we should avoid them. I say, "Duh"!!! So simple, and yet people STILL reject and resist. Health reform is a personal endeavor, we have some broad guidelines that apply to all, and should be put in place quickly. Like unclean meats, heavy deserts, lots of sugar, coffee, tea, etc. These are "no brainers" there is no excuse, period. You just THINK there are.

There is much that has to be carefully considered on an individual basis, time and place must be factored in.

I totally agree with you here!

[Overaged]

What does that tell you?

It doesn't say that EGW was wrong in taking so long. All that is saying that like the woman who had 7 demons cleaned out of her, that sometimes it doesn't come all at once.

It says lots about how patient and merciful we should be when dealing with what we see as faults in others.

We can still praise God for what He HAS done in us and where He is bringing us

[Ron Amnsn]

Which side are you on?

Legalism?

or

The Love of God

??????

This is a false dichotomy.

The term "legalism" doesn't occur at all in the Scriptures.

I haven't found anywhere in Scripture where anyone is rebuked for keeping God's Law, whether their reason for keeping it is good or bad. They were rebuked for missing the weightier matters of the law - for missing the heart issues, but never for carefully following God's law.

[olger]

True Ron

[phkrause]

This is a false dichotomy.

The term "legalism" doesn't occur at all in the Scriptures.

I haven't found anywhere in Scripture where anyone is rebuked for keeping God's Law, whether their reason for keeping it is good or bad. They were rebuked for missing the weightier matters of the law - for missing the heart issues, but never for carefully following God's law.

Excellent point Ron

[cheddar]

This is a false dichotomy.

The term "legalism" doesn't occur at all in the Scriptures.

I haven't found anywhere in Scripture where anyone is rebuked for keeping God's Law, whether their reason for keeping it is good or bad. They were rebuked for missing the weightier matters of the law - for missing the heart issues, but never for carefully following God's law.

[Ron Amnsn]

Ummm....the scribes and pharisees were rebuked time and time again by Jesus.

They spent their whole lives keeping the law and did it make them better people? - NO! It made them worse people who were evil and un-loving.

[cheddar]

The Bible always speaks of God's Law and the Old Covenant as something good and desirable. You're talking as if God's Law and the Old Covenant were something that we are better off without. That's a fairly obvious sign that what you're teaching is not Scripture.

Do you consider Paul’s writings as part of scripture? I seem to recall him comparing the old covenant to Hagar the bondwoman which gendereth to bondage and is eventually cast out. Not a ringing endorsement for the old covenant.

I also remember Peter saying that the Law was a yoke of bondage which we nor our fathers were able to bear. Wow, someone other that Paul spoke of the Law in a negative way.

Do you accept what Paul said as being part of scripture? How about Peter? Or do you take Dr Rich’s position and reject most of the NT. I know that most adventists reject what Paul had to say especially when it comes to the law and the old covenant but few have the courage to admit it.

[Gibs]

The New Testament also speaks favorably of the law, just a few examples,

Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Jesus had stronger ones, it you want I'll paste them here.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Those Scribes and Pharisees Cheedar speaks of were all about keeping man's law, some 613 of them, spelled out in detail, binding and strictly enforced.

I don't have a problem proclaiming God's law are also binding and will be strictly enforced. Obey and live, don't and die, it's YOUR choice.

It is not legalistic to keep the Sabbath Holy. We have certain specific instructions, detailed, from God on how to do that written right into the commandment. But that commandment is much more far reaching than what is specifically written. Each person must come to an understanding beyond the specific details that he/she is comfortable with. Let every man be convinced in his own heart.

The Adventist Church does not specify Sabbath "laws" beyond what the commandment itself specifies. The Pharisee's DID ADD multiple rules and laws to observance of the Sabbath day well beyond the scope of the written commandment.

There is not a problem with God's laws, which are in fact binding. The problem is MAN'S laws being ADDED to God's law!

[cheddar]

So what's the difference between love(agape) and the Law?

Are they the same or different or what?

I can put some effort into keeping the law but I can never generate love no matter how hard I try. It is the gift of God.

This is one fact that the law-lovers refuse to acknowledge.

[Ron Amnsn]

Do you consider Paul’s writings as part of scripture?

Yes, Paul's writings qualify as Scripture when they are interpreted to agree with the Scripture that preceded them. Like everything else, Paul's writings have to pass the Old Testament and New Testament test of truth. The Old Testament test of truth says a teaching has to agree with the Law and the testimony and not turn people away from God's way. The New Testament test of truth says that true teachings can be confirmed by searching the Old Testament Scriptures -- as the Bereans did in Acts 17.

Paul's writings themselves agree with Scripture, but there are lots of traditional interpretations of Paul's writings that ignore the context Paul wrote in and which disagree with previous Scripture. If those interpretations of Paul's writings that disagree with the Old Testament were true, then we'd be required to reject Paul's writings.

[Ron Amnsn]

I seem to recall him comparing the old covenant to Hagar the bondwoman which gendereth to bondage and is eventually cast out. Not a ringing endorsement for the old covenant.