Andrews U. Offers

[Gibs]

Kevin H, and others,

Here is a word from EGW and I know you will see this one differnent from my view but I see a new order of things has come in and if it were true very few it would be in the church that would NOT get through those pearly gates,

It's the few Jesus said and that will,and will be found to be the exact case as all I guarntee will see.

"The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place what would result?

The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath, of course would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it.

Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be build on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure."

Notice her last word there, "structure", yes a structure of men's cobbling.

"Who has authority to begin such a movement? We have our Bibles. We have our experience, attested to by the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit. We have a truth that admits of no compromise. Shall we not repudiate everything that is not in harmony with this truth?" {BCL 82.1}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[CoAspen]

Still no answer! You need to compose your thoughts into understandable sentences. Be direct in your answers, get rid of the quoting, which is a rather lazy process. Speak in rational way without obfusicating!

[ClubV12]

Gibs says,

"It's ok, we are just seeing what Andrews U. and others offer that so many find pleasing perhaps."

Brother Gib's, what do you think of Dr. Allen Walshes description of the course?

To wit:

"We can all say definitely and categorically that we do not teach or practice “contemplative spirituality,” “contemplative prayer,” “apophatic contemplation or meditation,” which seeks a total emptying of the mind, New Age philosophies, Eastern religious practices, or any other nonbiblical practices that others borrow from Hinduism or Buddhism."

Do you think his analysis is accurate or do you think he is deceived or deceiving others as to the true character of this class?

Laz, I studied at Georgetown University in the early 80's, that hot bed of Jesusits schools! I was not an Adventist, barely a Christian in fact. But I fell in with a particular group of graduate students who were "Creationists". I was SO impressed with the scientific rational and reasonings they consistently came up with to support biblical creation. Wonderful times, it had a profound impact in leading me toward a spiritual quest to really know God. Not that I would recommend anyone attend Georgetown U, but it illustrates how God can find and deliver truth to a sincere seeker even in the most unlikely environment. I met my future wife among that group of students. In time, she drifted away from Christ and eventually myself. But I thank God for her early testimony, how sad when I think of what might have been for her, for us, for Christ.

[Gibs]

Ah ClubV12, what they've done with is they have just put an SDA cover on the book, so to speak, inside it reads about the same.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

According to Dr. Walshe it doesn't read the same at all Gibs.

You seem to be convinced it's no different than a course that might be offered at a Jesuit school. I like Dr. Walshes description of it and see no reason to call him a "liar". Whom should I believe? You or Dr. Walshe? I'll go with the Dr. until there is evidence to the contrary, evidence you have failed to provide at this point. I think your bias toward the Church is getting in the way or your making a informed decision on the course.

Shall we "meditate" on the word, or not? Those with an extreme bias toward Eastern Religion would certainly say, "NOT". Those with a balanced view understand the difference between the Lords version of meditation and the devils counterfit.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

I imagine Dr. Walshes opinion is for it all the way, I've read some of the comparisons from a publisher of these things I get and what he pointed out were almost identical.

Anyway Club it don't matter a lot to me any more as I see it is so well imbedded it will stay and that saddens me.

My meditation is continual and has been for many years with my Lord God and Saviour. I need none of man's schooling on the subject at all. None really do, the Psalmist didn't.

Ps 119:97 ¶ MEM. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.

Ps 119:98 ¶ Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.

Ps 119:99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.

Ps 119:100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.

Ps 119:101 ¶ I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.

Ps 119:102 ¶ I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me.

Ps 119:103 ¶ How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!

Ps 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

Just get out that 5'th grade level KJV Bible and nothing more is needed.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

I'm open to the evidence Gib's. I have no particular torch to carry for Andrews U, nor will I jump to conclusions in condeming their work.

I would like to see some evidence from this "publisher" you speak of. In my opinion your original post on this issue was not very well crafted. It was obviously biased and misleading on several points. Such a case would not hold water in a court, the jury would have to dismiss it for lack of evidence. Here in the court of public opinion, I apply the same basic rules. I need some evidence to weigh the matter. Something more than what sounds like hear/say.

Dr. Walshe, while he to may be biased, must be considered an "expert witness" speaking for the school. I cannot easily dismiss his testimony.

[ClubV12]

This is a quote that is OFTEN repeated by those who say the Adventist Church is in apostasy and that the people should leave, abandon the Church. I do get tired of making the endless corrections to quotes taken out of context, as this one is....

"The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath, of course would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it."

Here Sister White is making referrence to "WHAT IF" the devil was allowed to bring into the Church his version of "reformation". IF he were allowed to, WHAT would be the result? See the above quote as to the result, IF this were allowed to happen.

HAS it happened? No! Does the Adventist Church "lightly regard the Sabbath"? No! Have we abandoned our fundamental beliefs that have existed since the pioneers established the Church? No! WILL these things come to pass at some point in the future? They might, IF, the devil is allowed to carry forth a false revival when and where the Sabbath is "lightly regarded". Don't run ahead of the Lord and bring the time of trouble upon yourself or the Church before it's time.

What she actually said:

"The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the SUPPOSITION that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization."

Testimonies for the Church Containing Messages of Warning and Instruction to Seventh-day Adventists. (39).

Look like you bought the "supposition" hook, line and sinker Gibs.

[Woody]

According to Dr. Walshe it doesn't read the same at all Gibs.

You seem to be convinced it's no different than a course that might be offered at a Jesuit school. I like Dr. Walshes description of it and see no reason to call him a "liar". Whom should I believe? You or Dr. Walshe? I'll go with the Dr. until there is evidence to the contrary, evidence you have failed to provide at this point. I think your bias toward the Church is getting in the way or your making a informed decision on the course.

Shall we "meditate" on the word, or not? Those with an extreme bias toward Eastern Religion would certainly say, "NOT". Those with a balanced view understand the difference between the Lords version of meditation and the devils counterfit.

[Gibs]

Hey you guys go ahead and like it, that is your right. ClubV12 the paper I get is from a discenting minstry broke lose from apostating Adventism and in it he lists paragraphs from ours and Loyola's teaching and he tells where it is from. You need to broaden your horizon of investigation some and then you would see it too.

People need to hear and see the other side of the story and I find a very strong refusal for people to shut out what seems galling to what they want to believe and be comfortable in.

One of the first things to change in Adventism was the trinity doctrine. That began around 1950 in a take over way. I notice those of the trinity doctrine do not all see it the same. That came in and the way it was done it wasn't noticed by but few of the members. I've made posts on that and I think you've read them. Deu 6:4 and then Jesus statement, John 10:30 say the same thing.

I can see there is no hope of seeing Adventism reforming of it's present errors and a few months ago I did have hope. The break down is becoming more rapid and set to keep the wrong course. She is not the "ship" that is going through. The Ekklesia, the called out is His Church I can see plainly now.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Praise God for sticking with the Truth ClubV12.

I would not want to be on the side of the aposticizers.

I praise God that some here present the undiluted Present Truth of our Message. I just love to hear it. For it is the message of the end days.

[Gibs]

I would not want to be on the side of the aposticizers.

What is needed Woody is truly what is the apostasies? It looks to me that you see the church has climbed to a higher understanding with all that has come in. I see a falling away as the scripture states,

2Th 2:3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

1Jo 2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

We definitley are in the last time. I see we are having this famine,

Am 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

Mt 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Too much SMOOTH things being preched, Please read an EGW quote,

" The ministers preach smooth things to suit carnal professors. They dare not preach Jesus and the cutting truths of the Bible; for if they should, these carnal professors would not remain in the church. But as many of them are wealthy, they must be retained, although they are no more fit to be there than Satan and his angels. This is just as Satan would have it. The religion of Jesus is made to appear popular and honorable in the eyes of the world. The people are told that those who profess religion will be more honored by the world. Such teachings differ very widely from the teachings of Christ.

His doctrine and the world could not be at peace. Those who followed Him had to renounce the world. These smooth things originated with Satan and his angels. They formed the plan, and nominal professors carried it out. Pleasing fables were taught and readily received, and hypocrites and open sinners united with the church.

If the truth had been preached in its purity, it would soon have shut out this class. But there was no difference between the professed followers of Christ and the world. I saw that if the false covering had been torn off from the members of the churches, there would have been revealed such iniquity, vileness, and corruption that the most diffident child of God would have had no hesitancy in calling these professed Christians by their right name, children of their father, the devil; for his works they did". {EW 228.1}

Above is exactly what I see has come in and is not good.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

very true

[ClubV12]

I see a great awakening among the people of God. I see knowledge of the word, the Spirit of Prophecy increased to a level Ellen White and the pioneers could never have imagined. I see an ever increasing thirst for a deeper knowledge of the Lord in the people in my local Church. Not all of them of course, in a group here, a group there, coming together, seeking a deeper relationship. I also see some folks who haven't moved an inch in the last year, some who seem to be completely oblivious as to what is happening all around them. Some have left the Church completely, one person in particular makes me very sad.

We have at our fingertips like never before in the history of this earth knowledge of the scriptures offered in abundance. Every version you can think of, the interlinear from the original texts, this is truly amazing. Availability of the Spirit of Prophecy to every person that wants it. I sense an urgency, an awakening, a refreshing that I find very encouraging. I will keep looking to Jesus, those who have departed the Church or are standing still will not distract me from the goal.

[Gibs]

The commandments are but made void and overcoming isn't a necessary thing in the smooth things being preached. Is that an awakening? Just believe and you will be saved is the echoing words I hear. Just have faith. Faith built on presumption and not the true way the Lord Jesus Christ is not faith, but presumption.

If it were true of what is being preached then it would be the few that would be lost. That is not the council Jesus Christ gave. Our safety isn't in numbers and being with the majority.

The lost far out number the saved,

Re 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Re 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Our safety and deliverance is only in Jesus Christ and being doers of His Word and Way, it will never be the way man wants. Man wants to get into Heaven with sin under his "belt".

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Gibs - I can fully understand your difficulty. For if I were looking to others - I would most likely believe in the same theories as you. But I look unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our Faith. Looking upon sinful mortals is dangerous to ones faith.

[CoAspen]

[ClubV12]

If the "smooth sayings" are to many and to much, get some backbone and be a witness IN the Church. Or,,, you could leave and hide your light under a bush. :)

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

I have been witnessing TO the church structure, as I can't be in it and of it. You know my reasons. Why don't you help to put down the "SMOOTH THINGS" teachings that have become so rampant. There are few here with me but we are the very few.

Does that make our position fragile? No it sure doesn't. When was the majority ever right?

I think you can be a witness to the fact I'm no jelly fish.

You say you see a great awakening. How can all the smooth things bring on an awakening? Man that lulls them to sleep, Laodicea.

Has darkness ever fallen greater than in the churches history than of now?

I heard Doug Batchelor on 3abn.org tonight and all here would have heard some real truthfull Adventist preaching that isn't heard much at all. I notice most were not real young people. Tells you something!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

My witness, my primary work is certainly NOT on this forum or anywhere else on the internet. I have learned a ton from hanging out here and it has helped me witness better locally, in my community, in my Church.

I am very thankful that God has led me to this local Adventist Church I attend. It has a very active membership and a lot of good folks doing some serious bible study. Giving bible studies, witnessing! Wednesday night prayer meeting is well attended and always a blessing. A small group of us meet on Tuesday nights to dig deeper (recently studying the sanctuary), prophecy and other subjects.

Am I expecting some big revival within the Church? Not at all, Sister White tells us NOT to look for it in fact! WILL it happen? In due time, in God's time. I quit looking at the people some time ago, those that have a deeper interest seem to find each other. The balance and understanding between the law and grace is exceptional in my local Church. On any given Sabbath we may have a sermon all about grace, next Sabbath may be all about why God's law are for our good. Good people, my family.

Smooth sayings? I wouldn't know, haven't seen much of that lately. :)

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

Hear Doug Batchelor especially on the salvation issue and then compare it to the teaching you have there in your congregation. If it agree you have a congregation that there is but few left in Adventism.. Kenny Shelton also preaches straight testimony as far as I've heard and he is on 3abn some, as much as he can afford to be I think.

Rivival in the SDA denomination it looks like has died. I think Ted has been pulled "under" sad to say. There were a few with him at the top and I know our local conference presiden is not. If 50% of the conference presidents were, there would be hope.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

"The Lord declares that the history of the past shall be rehearsed as we enter upon the closer work." 2 S.M.390.

Many of us have yet to learn what this means.

sky

[skyblue888]

"Each of the ancient prophets spoke less for their own time than for ours, so that their prophesying is in force for us." 3 S.M.338.

[skyblue888]

"All the great events and solemn transactions of Old Testament have been and are, repeating themselves in the church in these last days." 3 S.M.339.

[Gibs]

In her last years EGW viewed things is a different light as she saw deeper into things that upset her,

Unwise Leaders Do Not Speak for God

The voice from Battle Creek, which has been regarded as authority in counseling how the work should be done, is no longer the voice of God.-17MR 185 (1896). {LDE 50.2}

It has been some years since I have considered the General Conference as the voice of God.--17MR 216 (1898). {LDE 50.3}

That these men should stand in a sacred place, to be as the voice of God to the people, as we once believed the General Conference to be--that is past.--GCB April 3, 1901, p. 25. {LDE 50.4}

Notice the date of the last statement. Makes me think of what has recently came in in the last 50 yrs. in the leadership and universities.

For consideration.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.