The Great Controversy Project...hijacked??

[ClubV12]

I think you make a good point here Marcos. I see this issue in much the same way concerning how we talk about Daniel.

The minute someone identifies the "King" (North, South, in between) someone jumps up and says that can't be right, the King is really the devil. Well, uh,,, yes that is also correct. Truth is often multifacted and hard to put in a singular box.

The Romish Power, yeah I agree with that, AND I agree that there will be many who join that power in due time! Prescott had a reasonable point here.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

And that my friends IS the problem--no doubt. Rev. 2:2 points out that it was a good thing to doubt the words of those who "called themselves apostles". Their doubts caused them to put Paul and Luke to a test and found they were false apostles. (2Tim. 1:15)

What is your evidence that Rev. 2: 2 refers to Paul and Luke, etc.?

Been there and done that John312. So who else do you have in mind that they could be? Didn't your read my hint? Hint #2-find me ONE thing that Paul taught that was the same as what Jesus taught?

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

it was Ballinger that said he 'edited' her original writings by adding ONE word, makeing is sound like EGW agreed that the RC was Babylon that had fallen.

Show the reference of where Ballinger makes this claim.

Didn't you see my correction in post #524263 that it was Prescott? I even gave you the Internet site to check it out yoursef.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: miz3

....Where are the worshipers of Ellen White going to go now?

NO SDA is a worshiper of Ellen White any more than you are a worshiper of Paul or Peter. Recognizing a prophet for what they are doesn't mean they are worshipped.

Not true John317! Read the first 3 of the ten commandments again.

[wayfinder]

You will find the word "alone" on page 383 in the first paragraph.

[Dr. Rich]

I think you make a good point here Marcos. I see this issue in much the same way concerning how we talk about Daniel.

The minute someone identifies the "King" (North, South, in between) someone jumps up and says that can't be right, the King is really the devil. Well, uh,,, yes that is also correct. Truth is often multifacted and hard to put in a singular box.

The Romish Power, yeah I agree with that, AND I agree that there will be many who join that power in due time! Prescott had a reasonable point here.

Now read Daniel 7:11-12 and you will find that the Romand Power Beast was forever destroyed, but the other three beasts had an extension of life granted to them and you can see these other three beasts in the first beast of Revelation 13! What you do NOT see in Rev. 13 is the "Great and Dreadful Beast-Rome! These are not my words, so don't blame me for setting the record strait. Prescott and all of those who still believe that the first (and second) beast of Rev. 13 has anything to do with the Great and Dreadful Beast found in Dan. 7 are mistaken and have been deceived by EGW.

[wayfinder]

I think you make a good point here Marcos. I see this issue in much the same way concerning how we talk about Daniel.

The minute someone identifies the "King" (North, South, in between) someone jumps up and says that can't be right, the King is really the devil. Well, uh,,, yes that is also correct. Truth is often multifacted and hard to put in a singular box.

The Romish Power, yeah I agree with that, AND I agree that there will be many who join that power in due time! Prescott had a reasonable point here.

Ellen White explains why the "fallen, fallen" cannot apply to the romish church; because it has been in a fallen state for centuries. EGW made a specific application of the present fallen state to the recently formed protestant churches, the daughters of the scarlett woman.

Either Prescott was right or Ellen White was right, but they cannot both be right.

[Lysimachus]

Dr. Rich, but the Roman Power will be restored. Also, rome exists, just in its crippled form. So let's not make a mountain out of a mowhill.

Also, I think Ellen White left the word "alone" in there, because she thought Prescott had a good idea. Otherwise, if he was wrong, she would have corrected him and reproved him for adding that word.

It goes to show you that people who are inspired take advice from others, yet the end-product that is produced is God' workings, so that it is finally and completely in harmony with God's will.

[Dr. Rich]

Dr. Rich, but the Roman Power will be restored. Also, rome exists, just in its crippled form. So let's not make a mountain out of a mowhill.

Also, I think Ellen White left the word "alone" in there, because she thought Prescott had a good idea. Otherwise, if he was wrong, she would have corrected him and reproved him for adding that word.

It goes to show you that people who are inspired take advice from others, yet the end-product that is produced is God' workings, so that it is finally and completely in harmony with God's will.

Oh, so Marcos IS now a prophet? Hmmmm? Can you please tell me when Rome's power will be restored? And how?

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Dr. Rich, but the Roman Power will be restored. Also, rome exists, just in its crippled form. So let's not make a mountain out of a mowhill.

Also, I think Ellen White left the word "alone" in there, because she thought Prescott had a good idea. Otherwise, if he was wrong, she would have corrected him and reproved him for adding that word.

It goes to show you that people who are inspired take advice from others, yet the end-product that is produced is God' workings, so that it is finally and completely in harmony with God's will.

Oh, so Marcos IS now a prophet? Hmmmm? Can you please tell me when Rome's power will be restored? And how?

The healing of the wound. Have you not seen the headlines of the nations coming back under the wings of the Mother Church?

What do you call this?

[Dr. Rich]

Truth be known, the 'wounded head' are the Zionest Jews who lost their way of worship (sacrifice) because of war. No other major religion had that happen to them especially the Catholics. What EGW was believing was past down by just about all protestant churches at that time, but that was a false and mistaken belief. Of course we have much better hindsight then she did and our research and investigation clearly shows that NEVER did the Catholics EVER loose their way the worshiped. Sure, a pope died and was kidnapped, but that NEVER changed the way they worshiped--ever. And besides, MANY Popes had been kidnapped prior to the time EGW said the would happend, so what gives with that?

What you and those poor people who have been led astray by EGW now believe is a false flag my friend--intentional misdirection from the master of deception-Satan. (Rev. 2:18-25).

So please don't try to feed me that junk food I have been forced to eat all my life, as I now know what healthy food looks and tastes like.

[phkrause]

Truth be known, the 'wounded head' are the Zionest Jews who lost their way of worship (sacrifice) because of war. No other major religion had that happen to them especially the Catholics. What EGW was believing was past down by just about all protestant churches at that time, but that was a false and mistaken belief. Of course we have much better hindsight then she did and our research and investigation clearly shows that NEVER did the Catholics EVER loose their way the worshiped. Sure, a pope died and was kidnapped, but that NEVER changed the way they worshiped--ever. And besides, MANY Popes had been kidnapped prior to the time EGW said the would happend, so what gives with that?

What you and those poor people who have been led astray by EGW now believe is a false flag my friend--intentional misdirection from the master of deception-Satan. (Rev. 2:18-25).

So please don't try to feed me that junk food I have been forced to eat all my life, as I now know what healthy food looks and tastes like.

The Jews lost there sacrificing privledge because they lost there Temple in AD 70. There were no Zionist Jews in AD 70.

Here's a link:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/zionism.html

and than follow the links on that page especially the one on Nathan Birnbaum. This is when Zionism started!! Not back in AD70.

[Lysimachus]

Truth be known, the 'wounded head' are the Zionest Jews who lost their way of worship (sacrifice) because of war. No other major religion had that happen to them especially the Catholics. What EGW was believing was past down by just about all protestant churches at that time, but that was a false and mistaken belief. Of course we have much better hindsight then she did and our research and investigation clearly shows that NEVER did the Catholics EVER loose their way the worshiped. Sure, a pope died and was kidnapped, but that NEVER changed the way they worshiped--ever. And besides, MANY Popes had been kidnapped prior to the time EGW said the would happend, so what gives with that?

What you and those poor people who have been led astray by EGW now believe is a false flag my friend--intentional misdirection from the master of deception-Satan. (Rev. 2:18-25).

So please don't try to feed me that junk food I have been forced to eat all my life, as I now know what healthy food looks and tastes like.

Pure garbage. No disrespect.

No proof whatsoever.

You just went off the road.

You didn't just go off the road, your car has tumbled over 4 times.

You didn't just go off the road and tumble over 4 times, you went through the windshield and are laying on the side of the road bleeding.

There is nothing to this interpretation.

[Dr. Rich]

The kindly prove it wrong by history--show me ONE major religion that lost its way of worship because of war OTHER than the Jews? Try it and see what you come up with? Don't just be a coward and say something without proof!

[wayfinder]

What Dr. Rich and I have ascertained, through our research, is the fact that the Catholic church never sustained a fatal wound. Never, throughout it's long existance, has the Catholic church ever ceased to operate on some level. The year 1798 is believed by many SDAs' as the year that the "fatal wound" was inflicted with the arrest of Pope Pius VI (Giovanni Angelico Braschi). After Pope Pius VI arrest by French general Louis-Alexandre Berthier, he was taken back to France, but was in ill health and made it only as far as Valence. Pius IV continued to run the church and knowing that he would die soon, and that the papal conclave could not use the Vatican's Sistine chapel for the election of his successor, issued a bull in 1798 allowing the conclave to be held wherever the largest number of cardinals were gathered. After he died, the conclave was held in Venice under Austrian protection at the island monastery of San Giorgio, as arranged by Henry IX, Cardinal York.

Throughout history there have been several times where a pope was arrested, assinated, or not replaced after his death for two or three years, any of these could or would also qualify as a "fatal wound" as much as the 1798 event.

A "fatal wound" by definition is a wound that causes death. In Revelation 5:6, John beholds a Lamb, "as if it had been slain", this Lamb received a fatal wound. The Lamb died, but was now alive. The Catholic church has never ceased to exist or operate and by definition has never received a wound that caused it to cease to exist or operate.

The nation of Israel did receive a fatal wound in 70AD and the Israelite/Jewish people lived in the contries of the world until 1948AD when they were given the land upon which to live as a sovereign nation once more.

The text in Daniel 7 that describes the papacy, never states or implies a fatal wound, but that it's dominion would be taken away and never given back. On September 20, 1870 the last of the papal states were annexed to Italy and the church was left without a dominion. The papal states or states of the church, were the three kingdoms of the ten kingdoms/horns, that the "horn with eyes and a mouth" "uprooted" on the forth beast of Daniel 7.

[Lysimachus]

What Dr. Rich and I have ascertained, through our research, is the fact that the Catholic church never sustained a fatal wound. Never, throughout it's long existance, has the Catholic church ever ceased to operate on some level. The year 1798 is believed by many SDAs' as the year that the "fatal wound" was inflicted with the arrest of Pope Pius VI (Giovanni Angelico Braschi). After Pope Pius VI arrest by French general Louis-Alexandre Berthier, he was taken back to France, but was in ill health and made it only as far as Valence. Pius IV continued to run the church and knowing that he would die soon, and that the papal conclave could not use the Vatican's Sistine chapel for the election of his successor, issued a bull in 1798 allowing the conclave to be held wherever the largest number of cardinals were gathered. After he died, the conclave was held in Venice under Austrian protection at the island monastery of San Giorgio, as arranged by Henry IX, Cardinal York.

Throughout history there have been several times where a pope was arrested, assinated, or not replaced after his death for two or three years, any of these could or would also qualify as a "fatal wound" as much as the 1798 event.

A "fatal wound" by definition is a wound that causes death. In Revelation 5:6, John beholds a Lamb, "as if it had been slain", this Lamb received a fatal wound. The Lamb died, but was now alive. The Catholic church has never ceased to exist or operate and by definition has never received a wound that caused it to cease to exist or operate.

The nation of Israel did receive a fatal wound in 70AD and the Israelite/Jewish people lived in the contries of the world until 1948AD when they were given the land upon which to live as a sovereign nation once more.

The text in Daniel 7 that describes the papacy, never states or implies a fatal wound, but that it's dominion would be taken away and never given back. On September 20, 1870 the last of the papal states were annexed to Italy and the church was left without a dominion. The papal states or states of the church, were the three kingdoms of the ten kingdoms/horns, that the "horn with eyes and a mouth" "uprooted" on the forth beast of Daniel 7.

Wayfinder.

You are gravely mistaken. GRAVELY mistaken.

#1. Heidi Heik's research reveals how the wound truly restored religious liberty back to Italy and many other European States. His research goes beyond what traditional Adventism shows. You will need to read the book if you want to get a full picture of what was involved in 1798. It's far more than you can even begin to imagine. You can buy the book here and you can access the primary source documents here.

#2. Please notice that the entire Beast did not receive a fatal wound. It was just ONE of the heads. Not the entire beast. The Temporal Power was truly stripped from the Papacy and Rome was declared a Republic. Heidi Heik's makes it very clear that the wound itself was not caused by the abolishment of the Pope, or his imprisonment. But the Pope's imprisonment "signaled" to the world that something with the Papacy had happened. The primary sources reveal just what a blow the Papacy has received, and it is still in this same crippled condition today.

There is a vast difference between the slaying of the Lamb and the wounding of the Beast. Slaying is "slaying", and that means dead. But, a "wound" that is fatal simply means, It receives a wound that should have killed it, but it did not kill it. It healed up.

Ooohhh...you gettin it? I don't think you are. Think about it. =P

As Heik's points outs out, it is well known that the state backing of the church was the standard procedure throughout much of Europe during the dark ages. The papacy as a church never had to recognize or honor religious liberty until France first alienated herself from Rome in the French Revolution. This climaxed in 1798 when the French government divorced itself from the Pontifical government, causing a domino effect among the European nations who followed the example of France. Malachi Martin's previously quoted words were surely in reference to the events of February 15, 1798, for nothing else has placed the pontifical government of Rome in a straitjacket of inactivity for over 200 years other than the time since 1798 that the European Nations no longer enforced the dogmas of the Catholic Church. "It was John Paul's purpose to free the papacy from the straitjacket of inactivity in world affairs imposed upon it by the major secular powers for 200 years." (Malachi Martin, Keys of this Blood, (New York, Simon and Schuster: 1990), Dust Jacket.)

There is so much vast history stored in the vault found in the sources I gave you from Heidi Heik's links, you guys have NO idea what you're up against!

Our foundations are more solid than you can even begin to IMAGGINE!!!

In fact, I'm so sure that we are right Dr. Rich and Wayfinder, that I can sit back and relax in total confidence without having to worry about this view anymore.

I've done my research, and it is so rock solid, not even 3 billion tons of TNT can detonate it.

It should be also noted that 1798 was when the Crown of the Pope, and ALL the ornaments and decorations of the Vatican were stripped, leaving it bear naked. Not one single item was remaining.

In 508, France under King Clovis LITERALLY gave the crown to the Pope, and sent it on a wagon.

In 1798, France under Napoleon LITERALLY took the crown away from the Pope and all its items from the Vatican.

Not to mention scores and scores of additional legal issues that completely struck a mortal blow to the Papacy's ability to exercise any force whatsoever in temporal/legal matters in governmental affairs.

Oh how I implore you, quit trying to be "revolutionary" by tearing down our old foundations, and pretending you have something "new". This goes to show that there is a level of pride, showing that you have the answers to rewrite what dozens and dozens of great Godly pioneers have laid down in stone, as the Lord guided their minds in prophetic understandings. Brothers, these interpretations did not happen over night! Years and years of painstaking research has allowed Adventism to arrive at these unimpeachable interpretations--and new research is revealing, like never before, that they have TRULY WITHSTOOD THE TEST OF TIME!

[Gail]

Sorry for the interruption! Just another note on the OP-

" It is 11 Chapters to introduce the key themes, priced at 49 cents (for quantity) they want to distribute 3 million copies this year."

I think the idea is that those who are interested in more can obtain the whole book through an address that will be provided.

[Gordon1]

When I heard that there are only 11 chapters in this "The Great Hope" book...

Abridged versions of the GC have been published for decades; roughly the last ten chapters. Nothing new there.

The real affront is neglecting the 1884 GC.

It cuts to the chase with each chapter.

Quite a different book at about half the size.

[Dr. Rich]

Marcos, perhaps TNT will not budge you, but when the truth comes out, and it will soon, I will not have to say "I told you so".

Not being able to be budged by TNT sounds close to those found in the 7th warning to the Kingdom of Heaven in Dan. 3:14-18.

And PK, I do agree with you, while it was the Jews that lost their way of worship by war, it will be with the help of the Zionest Jews that will some day soon re-establish that way of worship. In fact, they are working on it now.

[ClubV12]

Thanks for that up-date Gail. I like the size and the price. The more I thought about the people I know who might be interested I do believe a small abriged and inexpsensive version is the way to go.

[Gail]

Thanks for that up-date Gail. I like the size and the price. The more I thought about the people I know who might be interested I do believe a small abriged and inexpsensive version is the way to go.

I hear ya! For folks like me who love history it's right to the big book. But for those who want the 20-minute version before they decide, this might do it.

[ClubV12]

Well, in the spirit of unity and the spirit of being in harmony with the Brethren I for one will scatter this new version like the winds of autumn!

Sister Whites does counsel that some items should be scattered thusly, that other items we are to wait until we see some interest. As usual from her, just good practical advice.

Once these little books are scattered, when possible, we should follow up with the large volume where an interest is shown.

[Gail]

I'm just looking at a comp copy of, "The Great Hope," the little book that was designed for giveaway.

It's actually quite attractive and packs a punch with the chapters that have been included. The cover art is well done and there is contact information at the back. It is a sample of the Great Controversy and I can see that its purpose is to create interest in the full edition of the book.

For the price you can't beat it as a witnessing tool.

[Naomi]

Well, in the spirit of unity and the spirit of being in harmony with the Brethren I for one will scatter this new version like the winds of autumn!Sister Whites does counsel that some items should be scattered thusly, that other items we are to wait until we see some interest. As usual from her, just good practical advice.

Once these little books are scattered, when possible, we should follow up with the large volume where an interest is shown.

Good point Club. I haven't seen the book but understand it is nicely done! We need new tools with which to witness

[miz3]

I am sorry but to print a book that leaves significant portions (that are the real thrust of the book) out is to me dishonest at the very minimum.

What are SDA Church .org ashamed of?

If SDA Church .org are on this earth (as they believe called of God for this purpose) to counter the "beast power" which is the RCC/Pope then why pull any punches. Be honest and above board about your purpose for existence.

I am constantly told on this forum that the Sanctuary/Investigative Judgment/1844 was God's antidote in prophecy to the RCC/Pope beast power. I am further told that this is the "last day message" (three angels message) to sent to a dying world.

Either this is true or it is not true. Hiding behind what you are calling "marketing tactics" is not being truthful about who you are.

I find such practices despicable. This not the way of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was always but always up front about His Mission to the World, shouldn't His "Church" (SDA Church .org) be any less.

This shortened version of the Great Controversy no matter how "attractively done" is nothing more than a cowardly lie. It is not the true position of the SDA Church .org and Ellen White concerning the "beast"/RCC/Pope.

I would think that true SDA Church .org members would ashamed of this new watered down version of the Great Controversy and demand that the "Church" give the full version.

Are the real SDA Church .org "NOW" (as opposed to our earlier pioneers) ashamed of "their gospel"?

If you are indeed ashamed, as this shortened version makes you look, then what is the reason for your SDA Church .org to exist?