the seven trumpets

[12tribes]

Sky, GC pages 334,335, she does not mention neither 5'th or 6'th trumpet. The far better evidence is the scripture that they can't start until the censer of of firey coals is cast into the earth, then the 1'st trumpet angel begins.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

These are quotes from a SDA pastor named pastor Burnside. He wrote a book on Revelation

Rev. 8:5 "Censer... cast in to the earth." Professed Christians were turning to other mediators namely dead saints. They thus placed them selves outside the protection of God. "While waiting for the Last Day the souls of the righteous were regarded as living in the presence of God and forming for Him, in company with the angels, a kind of celestial court. To the mind of the popu¬lace whose" perceptions in theology were not specially acute, the body of the Blessed, which as also, in virtue of the solidarity of Christians or communion of saints, a body of intercessors, presented some point of resemblance to the ancient pantheon.. . .

A particular saint protected more particu¬larly this or that country, showed himself helpful in particular circumstances, healed this or that disease. Benefit was to be de¬rived from invoking him near his tomb or in a sanctuary which was specially dedicated to

him. . . . To the martyrs of the persecutions were speedily added the saints of the New and

even of the Old Testament. . . . The angels also were beginning to receive religious homage.1t Duchense, "Early History of the Christian Church," V 01. 3, pp. 9,10.

Here is the reason why the angel ceased to offer incense. The Church had turned away from Christ and His merits to other media¬tors who had no merit to give, and was bringing no incense with her prayers to the altar. One Mediator, 1 Tim. 2:5. Come unto God by Him, Heb.7:25. God has a hedge about His own, Job 1:10. When Christians turn from the protection of Christ's blood_ they step outside the pro¬tection and are open to attacks of the enemy. As God withdrew His protection from Israel and Judah, 1 Chron. 9:1, and they were destroyed by Babylon, so now it was with Christendom.

"Fire of the Altar." Out of the altar comes fire on the earth. For the work of Jesus as Mediator in Heaven and war judgments on earth continue, till probation closes, and then comes the; greatest war of all war scourges, Armageddon

[skyblue888]

Sky, GC pages 334,335, she does not mention neither 5'th or 6'th trumpet. The far better evidence is the scripture that they can't start until the censer of of firey coals is cast into the earth, then the 1'st trumpet angel begins.

Gibs

_______________

What Gibs??? Surely you can't be serious!!!

On page 334, last parg, she mentions the 150 literal years which corresponds to the prophetic 5 months of the fifth trumpet(5x30=150) of Rev.9:5,10 and then she immediately refers to the period following the 5 prophetic months which consists of 391 literal years and fifteen literal days, corresponding to the prophetic year, one month, one day, and one hour of the sixth trumpet (Rev.9:15) which ended on August 11,1840.

I am shocked that you would even make the least suggestion that these periods have nothing to do with the fifth and sixth trumpets.

sky

[skyblue888]

The seven trumpets are not to be confused with the seven last plagues. Notice how the sixth trumpet, between 1449 and 1840, only dries up one third of the River Euphrates, (Rev.9:15) whereas the sixth plague dries up the same river Euphrates, river of people supporting the papal power, completely. (Rev.16:12)

[Gibs]

Sky,

Here's the paragraph,

In the year 1840 another remarkable fulfillment of prophecy excited widespread interest. Two years before, Josiah Litch, one of the leading ministers preaching the second advent, published an exposition of Revelation 9, predicting the fall of the Ottoman Empire. According to his calculations, this power was to be overthrown "in A.D. 1840, sometime in the month of August;" and only a few days previous to its accomplishment he wrote: "Allowing the first period, 150 years, to have been exactly fulfilled before Deacozes ascended the throne by permission of the Turks, and that the 391 years, fifteen days, commenced at the close of the first period, it will end on the 11th of August, 1840, when the Ottoman power in Constantinople may be expected to be broken. And this, I believe, will be found to be the case."--Josiah Litch, in Signs of the Times, and Expositor of Prophecy, Aug. 1, 1840. {GC 334.4}

She just don't go into any of the trumpets of Rev but does talk about the trumpets back in the services of the earthly tabenacle but that is it. She never mentions 1'st trumpet, 2'nd trumpet, 3'rd trumpet, 4'th trumpet, 5'th trumpet, 6'th trumpet or the 7'th trumpet in any of her writings I've ever found.

She is talking about events in Rev. 6: on page 334 of GC.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Here is the reason why the angel ceased to offer incense. The Church had turned away from Christ and His merits to other media¬tors who had no merit to give, and was bringing no incense with her prayers to the altar. One Mediator, 1 Tim. 2:5. Come unto God by Him, Heb.7:25. God has a hedge about His own, Job 1:10. When Christians turn from the protection of Christ's blood_ they step outside the pro¬tection and are open to attacks of the enemy. As God withdrew His protection from Israel and Judah, 1 Chron. 9:1, and they were destroyed by Babylon, so now it was with Christendom.

12tribes

__________

I love the way you are saying that the church had turned away from Christ and His merits to other mediators who had no merit to give and thus bringing no incense with their prayers to the altar.

I would say that they had turned away from Christ and His merits to other mediators with their own merits, the merits of the creature.

But a close study of the seven trumpets and the seven last plagues show that they are not the same. The sixth trumpet ended on August 11, 1840.

We are living in the time of the seventh trumpet when the mystery of God which is Christ in you the hope of character glory is to be finished during the latter rain and loud cry.

And when probation shall close for the human family, the judgments of God will fall upon the finally impenitent but these judgments, the seven last plagues, will not come directly out from the Lord upon the wicked. They will place themselves beyond God's protection and Satan will have entire control of them.

sky

[skyblue888]

Sky,

Here's the paragraph,

In the year 1840 another remarkable fulfillment of prophecy excited widespread interest. Two years before, Josiah Litch, one of the leading ministers preaching the second advent, published an exposition of Revelation 9, predicting the fall of the Ottoman Empire. According to his calculations, this power was to be overthrown "in A.D. 1840, sometime in the month of August;" and only a few days previous to its accomplishment he wrote: "Allowing the first period, 150 years, to have been exactly fulfilled before Deacozes ascended the throne by permission of the Turks, and that the 391 years, fifteen days, commenced at the close of the first period, it will end on the 11th of August, 1840, when the Ottoman power in Constantinople may be expected to be broken. And this, I believe, will be found to be the case."--Josiah Litch, in Signs of the Times, and Expositor of Prophecy, Aug. 1, 1840. {GC 334.4}

She just don't go into any of the trumpets of Rev but does talk about the trumpets back in the services of the earthly tabenacle but that is it. She never mentions 1'st trumpet, 2'nd trumpet, 3'rd trumpet, 4'th trumpet, 5'th trumpet, 6'th trumpet or the 7'th trumpet in any of her writings I've ever found.

She is talking about events in Rev. 6: on page 334 of GC.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

____________

Please Gibs. That is not true what you just said and you know it. She is not talking about Rev.6 but about Rev.9. She is talking about Josiah Litch who was studying the fifth and sixth trumpets using the day/year principle and he arrived at the conclusion that the sixth trumpet would end on August 11,1840 and His prediction proved to be correct and that excited widespread interest and it gave a wonderful impetus to the Advent movement. See p.335.

sky

*During the sixth trumpet one third of the population of Europe giving their support to the papal power was slain. During the sixth plague all the people supporting the papal power will be slain, they will turn on each other and the river will be completely dried up.

[Gibs]

Sky, here is the paragraph above the last one on page 334,

Thus was displayed the last of those signs of His coming, concerning which Jesus bade His disciples: "When ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." Matthew 24:33. After these signs, John beheld, as the great event next impending, the heavens departing as a scroll, while the earth quaked, mountains and islands removed out of their places, and the wicked in terror sought to flee from the presence of the Son of man. Revelation 6:12-17. {GC 334.2}

People connect those writings to be the trumpets but that is not right as she never mentions any trumpets of Rev in her writings.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

"In the year 1840 another remarkable fulfillment of prophecy excited widespread interest. Two years before, Josiah Litch, one of the leading ministers preaching the second advent, published an exposition of Revelation 9, predicting the fall of the Ottoman Empire. According to his calculations, this power was to be overthrown 'in A.D. 1840, sometime in the month of August;' and only a few days previous to its accomplishment he wrote: 'Allowing the first period, 150 years, to have been exactly fulfilled before Deacozes ascended the throne by permission of the Turks, and that the 391 years, fifteen days, commenced at the close of the first period, it will end on the 11th of August, 1840, when the Ottoman power in Constantinople may be expected to be broken. And this, I believe, will be found to be the case.'"--Josiah Litch, in Signs of the Times, and Expositor of Prophecy, Aug. 1, 1840. {GC 334.4}

It is crystal clear that in the above she is directly referring to the fifth and sixth trumpets of Revelation 9.

On page 335, we read, "At the very time specified, Turkey, through her ambassadors, accepted the protection of the allied powers of Europe, and thus placed herself under the control of Christian nations. The event exactly fulfilled the prediction. When it became known, multitudes were convinced of the correctness of the principle of prophetic interpretation adopted by Miller and his associates, and a wonderful impetus was given to the advent movement. Men of learning and position united with Miller, both in preaching and in publishing his views, and from 1840 to 1844 the work rapidly extended."

This fact cannot be controverted.

And I have also pointed out that during the the sixth trumpet, during the 391 years and 15 days, between 1449 and 1840, one third of the population of Europe was slain, that is, one third of the river Euphrates.

During the sixth plague the river Euphrates is completely dried up which means that all the peoples of this earth will turn their back on the papacy and they will bring her down to the pit and then they will turn on each other.

Compare Rev.9:15 and Rev.16:12

sky

[Gibs]

Sky, when those trumpets actually do start you will be convinced, no one will question it then, they are the first seven "mild" plagues. We read after the sixth trumpet,

Re 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Gibs is correct. Read about the trumpets yourself. The first trumpet is found at Rev. 8:7. Now read it and you will see that this has NOT happened yet anywhere in the world. The second (Rev. 8:8-9) has not yet happened. The third trumpet (Rev. 8:10-11) and fourth (Rev. 8:12). Then is when the 2nd beast of Rev. 13 is let out of the abyss (Satan himself) and this happens at the start of the last five months. (Notice 8:11-12?) This is the second beast-Satan!

Remember, all of these things are within 3 and a half year period and only at the end of this earth's history.

The seven plagues begin with the 5th Trumpet blowing but they do NOT affect any of the righteous and at this time NO ONE CAN become converted. (See Rev. 9:1-12.

Because NONE of these things have EVER happened to this world yet, what EGW wrote must be thrown out. Period! Remove her writings from your mind because they have caused many good people to become deceived! (Rev. 2:18-26)

[skyblue888]

Gibs, according to you there are seven minor plagues (seven trumpets) that fall just before the close of probation followed by seven last plagues (major plagues) after the close of probation.

However there should be no doubt in any one's mind that Josiah Litch, according to his calculations based on the day/year principle, placed the fifth trumpet between 1299 and 1449 (150 years or 5 prophetic months of wars between Islam and the Catholic Holy Roman Empire) and the sixth trumpet he placed between 1449 and 1840, as Islam continued to fight against the Catholic Holy Roman Empire for one prophetic year, one prophetic month, one prophetic day, and one prophetic hour which amounted to 391 years and 15 days.

One prophetic year equals 360 literal years

One prophetic month equals 30 literal years

One prophetic day equals one literal year

One prophetic hour equals 15 literal days

By adding these figures he came up with 391 literals years and 15 literal days. He then added these to 1449 the year the fifth trumpet ended, in August 1449, and He came up with Aug.11,1840. Mrs. White confirmed that the event that took place on the 11th of Aug.1840 fulfilled the prediction. Deacozes had ascended the throne by permission of the Turks some time in August 1449.

"Allowing the first period, 150 years, to have been exactly fulfilled before Deacozes ascended the throne by permission of the Turks, and that the 391 years, fifteen days, commenced at the close of the first period, it will end on the 11th of August, 1840, when the Ottoman power in Constantinople may be expected to be broken. And this, I believe, will be found to be the case." G.C.334.

As far as plagues falling before the close of probation, I do believe there will be three of them since there were ten plagues that fell upon Egypt and they are a type of the plagues that are to fall upon the world before the return of Jesus. These three plagues falling before the close of probation are not described in the book of Revelation.

sky

[Dr. Rich]

Sky, what about the 1st to the 4th trumpets? You can't have the 5th trumpet blowing before the first four trumpets! Please show me in this earths history that those things have already happened!

[skyblue888]

If we reject this interpretation as found in G.C.334,335, and apply the year, the month, the day, and the hour of the sixth trumpet of Rev.9:15 in these last days, we would have to take a literal approach which would mean that this plague would last 391 days and one hour and the fifth trumpet would last 5 literal months.

But we have been clearly told that after 1840 there will never again be a message to the people of God that will be based on time. See 1 S.M.188; 7 B.C.971

And, as we read chapter 10 of Revelation in which the seventh trumpet is mentioned in verse 7 we see that this is in reference to the Advent Movement in 1844 coming after the fulfillment of the sixth trumpet in August 1840. And it is a fact that if in 1844 the third angel's message had been proclaimed by the power of the Holy Spirit to all nations, the mystery of God would have been finished, probation would have closed, and the seven last plagues would have fallen and the people of God would have been delivered from the execution of the death decree at the time of the fifth plague, the drying up of the River Euphrates would have taken place bringing about the fall of Babylon the Great followed by the hail and the great earthquake, the special resurrection and the 144,00 translated and the Kings of the East would have returned, Jesus with the multitudes of captives that were raised from the dead at His resurrection.

sky

[skyblue888]

The first trumpets were judgments that fell upon Pagan Rome at the hand of the Barbarian tribes of Europe which brought about the fall of the Roman Empire in A.D.476.

sky

[Gibs]

Let's face it, God gave us prophecy rigt down to the consumation and to deny that is to say the seven last plagues have already fallen. All know they are future so for the life of me I can't see how any can find all the others are past.

The scroll of Prophecy is unrolled for us to see and we are just as ignorant as the Jews of old didn't know of their coming Messiah because they didn't discern the prophecy.

Dr. Rich is right Sky, read the first four trumpets and tell us when all points of the prophecy were made. We don't have a fulfillment until all points are met we all should know. Here is the first four trumpets, KJV

Re 8:7 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Re 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Re 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Re 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

Re 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Re 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

These are covered in the book Daniel & The Revelation by Uriah Smith. I misplaced the copy I had. May be you can google it.

[Dr. Rich]

These are covered in the book Daniel & The Revelation by Uriah Smith. I misplaced the copy I had. May be you can google it.

No sky, Uriah Smith could NOT (impossible) for him to have correctly understood end time prophecy--as God said that no one would understand until the last generation and then only the few with insight would understand. So to even think he knew or anyone for that matter who are now dead, is useless and you might as will put your head in the sand.

Gibs was right, use the bible as Jesus did NOT lie my friend! As hard as it is when you come to the point to find out your long loved prophet turns out to have problems (I did about 8 years ago and it was one of my hardest things to do), one must first repent and then ask God to keep pointing you to the real truth.

Every point of the prophecy MUST happen or it is NOT the true prophecy. That is one of the 7 rules for understanding end time prophecy.

[Gibs]

This Trumpet the third reveals something all should be prepared to do, and what is that?,

That is be ready to purify your water especially to drink and use for personal health.

When this "star" hits the earth it will be on the order of a 50 grain bullet out of a 220 swift rifle loaded to max. and bullet speed of over 4,000 ft. per second hitting a ground hog. This "star" will have the same sort of effect on the earth. The strata will be broken up and sewage and polluted waters will be mixed with the potable water that are now being used and water getting scarce as it is and very, very little potable water then will be available.

Re 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

Re 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Water could be run through a sand filter first and then distilled and if it is real stinky distilled the second time. There may not be any electric so a distiller that could be place over a wood fire might be a good investment for survival.

Folks those first four trumpets "ain't" just whistling Dixie, these are warnings from the great God and Saviour of this world. The last 3 are "woes" and woe it will be. You got to realize something, we haven't come close to the 1'st trumpet yet let along the next 3 and the woes no way have we even began to touch anything close to that.

Golly neds folks it is wake up time, please read the trumpet verses slowly, carefully and thoughtfully and pray for His enlightenment.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Well, it is up to each one of us to either accept or reject the testimony found in The Great Controversy, 334,335 placing the fifth and sixth trumpets before 1844.

Uriah Smith may not have all the light but he certainly was correct in his understanding of the first four trumpets.

Mrs. White recommended that book, if I am not mistaken.

sky

[skyblue888]

See www.champs-of-truth.com/books/dr/rev_chapter_viii.htm

[Gibs]

U. Smith got most of his ideas of prophecy from Gibbon the "skeptic" EGW labled him. And it is very true. If he would have read more carefully the scriptures instead of relying on man he would have realized all prophecy was not fulfilled in their time.

He had stated the number 666 of verse 18 of Rev 13: belonged to the 1'st beast of the chapter and all you needs do is read verses 11-18 and it is clear that the number belongs to the beast rising up out of the earth Rev 13:11. But he says this is the USA, hey no way Hosea. Read here a statement from EGW,

"In Revelation we read concerning Satan: "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Revelation 13:13-17). . . . {3SM 393.1}

Did you notice she quotes Rev 13:13-17 ? Read youself those verses, 11-18 and you should see also it is Satan and can only be Satan if you don't let man lead you.

Then really if you read with discernment the starting verses of Rev 13: you can see the first beast is not the Papacy, please read,

Re 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

The beast has 6 other heads and just one was wounded, it proves out to be the sixth one, but then the verse reveals "the whole world wondered after the beast" and not the "head that was wounded to death". That one head was the Papacy, it has 6 more, can you not see the beast is a system greater than the Papacy?

Besides the 7 heads this beast of Rev 13: has ten horns that have the crowns, king power, the heads have lost the power of ruling!

Historicism is leaving His church in the dark, it's wake up time. Rev 9:20 reveal the seven trumpets are the first 7 plagues,

Re 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

I guarantee when these trumpets start it will be seen these are plagues!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Gibs, I dont know where you are going with this. The fact remains that in The Great Controversy,334,335, the fifth and sixth trumpets are shown to have been fulfilled already, before 1844.

Here I stand and I will not budge.

sky :)

[cheddar]

Gibs, I dont know where you are going with this. The fact remains that in The Great Controversy,334,335, the fifth and sixth trumpets are shown to have been fulfilled already, before 1844.

Here I stand and I will not budge.

sky

So you stand by what the Great Controversy says. I have no problem with that. If the 5th and 6th trumpets were fulfilled in the past then we should be able to dust off the history books and verify every single point of each prophecy. Every point must be met or it’s not a true fulfillment.

Josiah Litch, himself, who came up with the interpretation abandoned it later in his life and became a futurist. That should tell you something right there. Let’s start with the ‘bottomless pit’ which is a theme that runs throughout Revelation.

The ‘bottomless pit’ is mentioned seven times in Rev.

- Three times are dealing with the 5th trumpet and the angel who ascends out of it (Rev. 9:1,2,11)

- One time is referring to the beast that ascends out and kills the two witnesses (Rev. 11:7)

- One time is referring to the seven headed ten horned beast that ascends out of the pit (Rev. 17:8)

- The last two times are the time when Satan is placed back into the bottomless pit (Rev. 20:1,3)

Wow, when reading thru all those verses it sounds nothing like what happened to Rome or Islam or anything historical. Why don’t you identify the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit historically and show me where it fits into all those verses. If Ellen White were such a great biblical scholar then this should be easy.

[Gibs]

Sky, It is perfectly OK for you to stand on what you see and understand. I am just one who sees it different and I believe my reasons posted are valid. I know you see the same but some may see each of our ways and it is for consideration. I do not coerce anyone to my opinion. I may be a strong contender for the views I hold and shouldn't I be. You have the same right.

I had gone as far as I was going to go in answer to your query, I've stated my case as well as I know how at present.

I only presented those other points to bring out false understanding of some of the things to show all things need critical scrutiny.

Yes Sky I admit I am a picky one, forgive me if you will, we are Brothers I am sure.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

If it comes to books for reading on this subject, get Larry Wilson's book called "Wake Up America" (should have been "Wake up you sleepy Adventists"), but Gibs could be more right on this whole issue. God's not about to let things keep going the way it has been, for time has about run it's course. Those first 4 trumpets will no doubt have everyone in the world asking about who the real God is--because this world has NEVER had these things happen as what they will be happening.

Gibs, I don't really care right now what church or religion someone is in or not, as these 4 trumpets will make everyone search for the true and real God. At that time it will be the 144k who 'stand up' and tell the those in the whole world that the gospel of the Kingdom of heaven is the words of Jesus Christ--and to be saved one MUST first be in the Kingdom of heaven--by keeing all of the ten commandments and following or holding to the words of Jesus only.