Woody Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 Quote: What is WOPE? My you are a brave one. Are you sure you want to know? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
teresaq Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 #3 is a valid passage to the discussion. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
olger Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 Quote: What is WOPE? My you are a brave one. Are you sure you want to know? Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
olger Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 Quote: You almost caught that one. It is confused thinking so understandable if it takes a while to see the error. Quote: I'm not sure, but I think you be confused I would be happy if I could just understand your syntax. rejoice always G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
teresaq Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 Couldn't see the errors in reasoning and use of scripture, eh? :) Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
teresaq Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 Originally Posted By: olger #3 is a valid passage to the discussion. 3. Jeroboam lost his kingdom and his life over ordaining anyone who will."After this thing Jeroboam did not turn from his evil way, but made priests for the high places again from among all the people. Any who would, he ordained to be priests of the high places. [34] And this thing became sin to the house of Jeroboam, so as to cut it off and to destroy it from the face of the earth." 1 Kings 13:33-34 (ESV) Don't forget this phrase: "Sin of Jerabaom." this is a description of his sin of ordaining anyone who would. This sin spread to Judah as well as Israel and God sent Israel in to oblivion and Judah into Babylonian captivity over it. See below. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
teresaq Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 Quoting from the original author: 3. Jeroboam lost his kingdom and his life over ordaining anyone who will. "After this thing Jeroboam did not turn from his evil way, but made priests for the high places again from among all the people. Any who would, he ordained to be priests of the high places. [34] And this thing became sin to the house of Jeroboam, so as to cut it off and to destroy it from the face of the earth." 1 Kings 13:33-34 (ESV) Don't forget this phrase: "Sin of Jerabaom." this is a description of his sin of ordaining anyone who would. This sin spread to Judah as well as Israel and God sent Israel in to oblivion and Judah into Babylonian captivity over it. See below. I see a couple of problems with this reasoning. 1. Looking at this text by itself it does seem to say that "ordaining anyone who would" was the sin of Jeroboam. Assuming for the moment that it is the correct reading, and going back to 1kings 12, we see that Quote: 26And Jeroboam said in his heart, Now shall the kingdom return to the house of David: 27If this people go up to do sacrifice in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then shall the heart of this people turn again unto their lord, even unto Rehoboam king of Judah, and they shall kill me, and go again to Rehoboam king of Judah. 28Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 29And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan. 30And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan. 31And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi. Jeroboam made calves of gold and "ordained" any who would to be priests of those calves. The Levites had refused. The sin of Jeroboam was in making priests of anyone instead of Levites? Priests to serve idols? God was upset about "ordaining any who would" and not the idols themselves? Which leads us to the second issue I have, what was the sin of Jeroboam? Ordaining? 2. As noted above, the text by itself does appear to say that the sin of Jeroboam was in "ordaining any who would", but in addition to the above texts we also have, Quote: 2 Kings 10:29 Howbeit from the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, Jehu departed not from after them, to wit, the golden calves that were in Bethel, and that were in Dan. 2 Chronicles 13:8 And now ye think to withstand the kingdom of the LORD in the hand of the sons of David; and ye be a great multitude, and there are with your golden calves, which Jeroboam made you for gods. The sin of Jeroboam, as I understand it from the bible, was in making idols for the people to worship in the place of God, not in "ordaining anyone who would". Ordaining priests for the worship of idols was certainly part of that sin, but not the sin itself, or by itself. At least not as I can see. This argument against WOPE, for me, has no relevancy at all to WOPE. Yet I am urged to "submit" to the "truth", i.e. accept this interpretation of scripture or lose my eternal soul, which brings up another issue regarding conscience. The other two "bible" arguments that I remember reading against WOPE bring up similar issues for me. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 14, 2012 Administrators Posted June 14, 2012 The link of ordaining anyone to be priests was, as you have noted, because the Levites refused. This raises another factor to consider for those that try to draw parallels to the priesthood as instructive on who should be ministers. What is suggested is that the priests were all men, therefore women cannot be ministers. But the key factor on that point in the story of Jeroboam is that the priests he appointed were not Levites. (Gender wasn't the issue) If one is to take that as instructive for who should be ministers, being a Levite was the requirement that was ignored. A strict reading would mean that ministers must be Levites. That just reinforces the fallacy of the idea that the priesthood of the OT was the same as the pastoral/ministry of the NT and today. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
teresaq Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 Not to mention that it would have been ok if the Levites had served as priests for idols. Not sure I want to go there. That is a good point. Where do we start and stop at being literalists? Just as importantly, who decides? The most important issue for me is, how much twisting of scripture, unfounded conclusions, and private interpretation will be allowed before the church takes a stand (thinking of the two papers I have read)? Shouldn't there be committees assigned to study anyone's position before allowing them to teach anything as "straight from the mouth of God" for the church? Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
Overaged Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 Private interpretation? Yes; thats what your entire post looks like to me - but to be honest, I also found your post way too confusing to make sense out of. (since you asked). Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
teresaq Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 ...to be honest, I also found your post way too confusing to make sense out of. (since you asked). I'll let the author know you couldn't make sense out of his arguments against WOPE. :) Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
Overaged Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 Please do Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Woody Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 Quote: I'll let the author know you couldn't make sense out of his arguments against WOPE. LOL Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
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