SECC gives ordination credentials to men and women pastors

[olger]

For me it is because I have heard your arguments and understood them. Then, I have taken those arguments into the Word of God and compared them with the evidence there, and found the WO arguments un satisfying.

G

[Woody]

So you disagree with the evidence due to a lack of understanding for some reason. It does not mean that the evidence has not been shown. It means that your personal interpretation of God's Holy Word is not compatible with the evidence.

[Tom Wetmore]

I am opposed to women pastors and elders, Bruce.

regards,

G

Thank-you for confirming what I have been saying for a long time. The real opposition is not to ordaining women. It is to women as pastors.

Please reconcile your opposition with this clear and unequivocal statement by Ellen White from Testimonies, vol 6, p. 322:

Quote:

It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: olger

Jesus was never a rebel against God, or His Word.

G

True but he was a rebel against the establishment and the accepted ways of doing things in his day.

Same for the people who want women to be ordained. No one is against women pastors. They just do not want them ordained. NO where in scripture do we find that women cannot be ordained. So to call that a rebellious stance because of scripture forbids it is really funny. It is rebellious against the bias of the world church who for the most part do not even have women pastors in africa and South America as it is not accepted.

Perhaps the "bias" is actually the other way around?

I agree, it may not be 'rebellious' to support WO; but that would depend upon what one is doing about their opinion, and how they are doing it. I think it's clear that some WO supporters have crossed that line. But others have not. The Scriptures don't explicitly forbid a lot of things, that does not automatically make something "right." This is what you seem to suggest, and I would suggest that perhaps, that is a source of 'rebellion.'

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

I am opposed to women pastors and elders, Bruce.

regards,

G

Thank-you for confirming what I have been saying for a long time. The real opposition is not to ordaining women. It is to women as pastors.

Please reconcile your opposition with this clear and unequivocal statement by Ellen White from Testimonies, vol 6, p. 322:

Quote:

It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God.

Welcome, Sir.

I was using the term "pastors" in 2012 language, as you do too. EGW made a distinction between pastors and ordained ministers.

When Ellen White wrote about ordained church pastors, she typically referred to them as "ministers" rather than pastors. In cases in which she used the term pastor she seems to have done so with a specialized meaning in mind, using the term to refer to a person doing personal labor in the nurture of the flock, rather than a particular church office or position.

For example in MR volume 9, 343 she writes "Had the preacher (ordained minister) done the work of a pastor (visiting in the homes), a much larger number would now be rejoicing in the truth."

The same volume also includes a chapter entitled "Young Men in the Ministry," in which, she adds, "God calls for you, young men. He calls for whole armies of young men." The whole chapter is a call for men to enter the ministry, with no mention of women doing so. The same sort of gender-specific call for the ministry of men also appears in the chapter "The Need of Educational Reform." It seems only natural to expect these articles to urge women also to join the ranks of ministers if Mrs. White believed that women canvassers were preparing for ordination.

I believe Mrs. White did not envision men and women doing the same work of ministry. Rather, she called for women especially to undertake a personal ministry of visitation in the home. Such a work was necessary, important work, and was in the line of ministry, though often neglected by the men. The work of these women would complement rather than duplicate the regular ministry of the men. And there is no call for ordination connected with it.

G

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Thank-you for confirming what I have been saying for a long time. The real opposition is not to ordaining women. It is to women as pastors.

Please reconcile your opposition with this clear and unequivocal statement by Ellen White from Testimonies, vol 6, p. 322:

Quote:

It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God.

Welcome, Sir.

I was using the term "pastors" in 2012 language, as you do too. EGW made a distinction between pastors and ordained ministers.

When Ellen White wrote about ordained church pastors, she typically referred to them as "ministers" rather than pastors. In cases in which she used the term pastor she seems to have done so with a specialized meaning in mind, using the term to refer to a person doing personal labor in the nurture of the flock, rather than a particular church office or position.

For example in MR volume 9, 343 she writes "Had the preacher (ordained minister) done the work of a pastor (visiting in the homes), a much larger number would now be rejoicing in the truth."

The same volume also includes a chapter entitled "Young Men in the Ministry," in which, she adds, "God calls for you, young men. He calls for whole armies of young men." The whole chapter is a call for men to enter the ministry, with no mention of women doing so. The same sort of gender-specific call for the ministry of men also appears in the chapter "The Need of Educational Reform." It seems only natural to expect these articles to urge women also to join the ranks of ministers if Mrs. White believed that women canvassers were preparing for ordination.

I believe Mrs. White did not envision men and women doing the same work of ministry. Rather, she called for women especially to undertake a personal ministry of visitation in the home. Such a work was necessary, important work, and was in the line of ministry, though often neglected by the men. The work of these women would complement rather than duplicate the regular ministry of the men. And there is no call for ordination connected with it.

G [/quote']

[Overaged]

The work of these women would complement rather than duplicate the regular ministry of the men. And there is no call for ordination connected with it.

G

Should read "rather than duplicate [or compete with] the regular ministry of the men."

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: olger

I am opposed to women pastors and elders, Bruce.

regards,

G

Thank-you for confirming what I have been saying for a long time. The real opposition is not to ordaining women. It is to women as pastors.

Please reconcile your opposition with this clear and unequivocal statement by Ellen White from Testimonies, vol 6, p. 322:

Quote:

It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God.

I think it tends to come down to just what a person imagines a minister's job to.

Ellen White said most of the men were not only doing that job, but were not even inclined to do that job, whereas the women were not only inclined but more suitable.

[phkrause]

Well unlike olger I am not against woman Pastors. Some of the best sermons I've heard have been from woman pastors. Especially pastor Williams, who before moving to California was the pastor of the Boston Temple, I believe that was the name of the church. Went there a few times and also heard her speak at the College church at AUC, and also at campmeeting in Lancaster, Mass. If and when WO occurs, I will have no problem with that. I think we're wasting each others time by saying the same things over and over about there being any verification for or against WO. I haven't read or heard any thing that comes close a case for WO, but have heard a very good case against it. And where not speaking of woman pastors, teachers, bible workers, etc., but about WO.

[teresaq]

I am opposed to women pastors and elders, Bruce.

[Tom Wetmore]

I was using the term "pastors" in 2012 language, as you do too. EGW made a distinction between pastors and ordained ministers.

When Ellen White wrote about ordained church pastors, she typically referred to them as "ministers" rather than pastors. In cases in which she used the term pastor she seems to have done so with a specialized meaning in mind, using the term to refer to a person doing personal labor in the nurture of the flock, rather than a particular church office or position.

The word "pastor" means the same now as it did in the 19th Century. I do not see that she made the distinction you have suggested. I see her using the terms interchangeably and she uses pastor in the sense of an important function of being a minister. She counseled that being a minister was more than being a preacher.

What do you believe she meant by the gospel ministry?

Originally Posted By: olger

For example in MR volume 9, 343 she writes "Had the preacher (ordained minister) done the work of a pastor (visiting in the homes), a much larger number would now be rejoicing in the truth."

Nice try, Ger. The quote you posted gives the appearance that EGW used the two parenthetical phrases in her original statement. She did not say that. Those are your words that you inserted, changing the meaning of what she actually said. Here is the full quote in context which makes her meaning clear that she sees the work of a minister to be more than preaching, that it includes pastoring (shepherding) the flock:

Quote:

Elder H used to live here and preach to the people, but he was not a shepherd of the flock. He would tell the poor sheep that he would rather be horse-whipped than visit. He neglected personal labor, therefore pastoral work was not done in the church and its borders. The deacons and elders of the church have acted wisely and worked judiciously to keep the church in order, and we find the people in a much better condition than we had expected. We are happily disappointed. But when I look over the years, and think of what might have been done, if the man entrusted with the flock had been a faithful steward of God, watching for souls as one that must give an account, my heart is made sad. Had the preacher done the work of a pastor, a much larger number would now be rejoicing in the truth. {9MR 343 -4}

Originally Posted By: olger

I believe Mrs. White did not envision men and women doing the same work of ministry. Rather, she called for women especially to undertake a personal ministry of visitation in the home. Such a work was necessary, important work, and was in the line of ministry, though often neglected by the men. The work of these women would complement rather than duplicate the regular ministry of the men. And there is no call for ordination connected with it.

She refers to the need for "consecrated" women to do the work of caring for the needs of the flock in this way in a different sense than she was speaking of the preacher who neglected his duty to pastor the flock. You are confusing the work we understand to be that of the deaconesses. She specifically said that these women should be ordained by the laying on of hands.

[Overaged]

That Paul speaks of Phoebe first should be a hint of priority in Paul's mind. That he devotes more words (40 to be exact) in introducing her than he does to any other, including Priscilla and Aquila, should be a significant hint.

[Woody]

Quote:

Injustice has been done to women who labor just as devotedly as their husbands, and who are recognized by God as being as necessary to the work of ministry as their husbands. [if ordination is defined as an official church recognition of a calling that was instituted by God, it would seem long past the time when the church should harmonize with that Divine perspective.] The method of paying men-laborers and not their wives, is a plan not after the Lord's order. . . . This arrangement . . . is liable to discourage our sisters from qualifying themselves for the work they should engage in [i.e., ministry]. . . . This question is not for men to settle. The Lord has settled it. You are to do your duty to the women who labor in the gospel. [Ms 43a-1897, emphasis supplied.]

[Woody]

Quote:

The Lord has given Christ to the world for ministry. Merely to preach the Word is not ministry. The Lord desires His ministering servants to occupy a place worthy of the highest consideration. In the mind of God, the ministry of men AND WOMEN existed before the world was created. [The premise that God had a preconceived concept of ministry for both men and women before He created the world destroys ideas of subordination and offers very telling evidence about Ellen White's concept of the role of women in ministry.] He determined that His ministers should have a perfect exemplification of Himself and His purposes. No human career could do this work; so God gave Christ in humanity to work out His ideal of what humanity may become through entire obedience to His will and way. God's character was revealed in the life of His Son. Christ not only held a theory of genuine ministry, but in His humanity He wrought out an illustration of the ministry that God approves. Perfection has marked out every feature of true ministry. Christ, the Son of the living God, did not live unto Himself, but unto God. [Ellen White, Diary entry March 12, 1891, Ms 23-1891, emphasis supplied. Ellen White's original diary entry did not contain the wording that included women within God's original concept of ministry, but the 1903 version did. Most likely Ellen White's experience in Australia brought her to include that significant phrase in her later editing.]

The history of the ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist church in the 19th century illustrates that women were indeed serving as "priests" and "ministers" of the Lord. We must recognize that heritage." - Ellen White and the Ordination of Women Sermon by Bert Haloviak, Sligo Church, Oct 15, 1988

[Naomi]

Woody, could you please print the quote without the emphasis being supplied. Just for grims ..........

[Woody]

Woody, could you please print the quote without the emphasis being supplied. Just for grims ..........

It was already in the paper I quoted. So, I have no idea how to undo the emphasis. Perhaps someone more technical can do it for you.

[phkrause]

It was already in the paper I quoted. So, I have no idea how to undo the emphasis. Perhaps someone more technical can do it for you.

So in others words the supplied words are not EGWs? At least that could've been mentioned so the rest of us would've know that.

[Woody]

If you look at the end of the quote - you will see the following:

Ellen White and the Ordination of Women Sermon by Bert Haloviak, Sligo Church, Oct 15, 1988

I quoted the paper by Bert Haloviak.

But yes - Bert quoted Ellen White

[olger]

Nice try, Ger. The quote you posted gives the appearance that EGW used the two parenthetical phrases in her original statement. She did not say that. Those are your words that you inserted, changing the meaning of what she actually said. Here is the full quote in context which makes her meaning clear that she sees the work of a minister to be more than preaching, that it includes pastoring (shepherding) the flock:

Right, I added those words in parenthesis and thought that was obvious. No panic here.

Tom, I'm starting to get the feeling that we disagree on ordaining women. Think you'll ever give up this notion and come over to my side?

rejoice always,

G

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Woody

It was already in the paper I quoted. So, I have no idea how to undo the emphasis. Perhaps someone more technical can do it for you.

So in others words the supplied words are not EGWs? At least that could've been mentioned so the rest of us would've know that.

In the first quote the "emphasis added" was the underlining of EGW's words. The bracketed words (the correct way to do it, Ger...) were added by Bert Haloviak. Other than bracketed words it was all EGW.

In the second quote it is from Bert Haloviak's sermon the last paragraph being his words. The first paragraph is a quote from EGW to which the added emphasis is the all caps of "AND WOMEN" which were EGW's words. Bert also added his bracketed explanatory comment in the quote,.

[olger]

Bert Haloviak has a dog in that race (so to speak).

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Woody

It was already in the paper I quoted. So, I have no idea how to undo the emphasis. Perhaps someone more technical can do it for you.

So in others words the supplied words are not EGWs? At least that could've been mentioned so the rest of us would've know that.

[Woody]

Bert Haloviak has a dog in that race (so to speak).

That simply would not matter. Either what was stated and quoted in the paper are TRUE or they are FALSE. Just so happens - they are TRUE.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Woody

It was already in the paper I quoted. So, I have no idea how to undo the emphasis. Perhaps someone more technical can do it for you.

So in others words the supplied words are not EGWs? At least that could've been mentioned so the rest of us would've know that.

I thought it was a pretty well understood way of acknowledging what is added and what is original since it happens rather frequently even by some members of this board in various discussions.

[Tom Wetmore]

Bert Haloviak has a dog in that race (so to speak).

That you have tied your dog to the dog house (so to speak), should prevent others from running theirs in the race and cheering them on. Right?

Now it's a bit rude to refer to someone as a dog, wouldn't you say? (Might be well to consider your figures of speech a bit more carefully...)

But seriously, I assume you refer to his daughter, Kendra. At the time he delivered that sermon, she had not even graduated from college. Not quite in the race I would say.