SECC gives ordination credentials to men and women pastors

[teresaq]

About Aquilla & Priscilla, having a gathering in their house makes them "hospitable" which is a great quality. To read more into that requires lots of assumptions.

[doug yowell]

I'm in the Columbia Union, and most of the executive committee is very liberal. I know many of them personally.

[olger]

I concur DY.

The third world countries that we helped to bring to the truth may be a stabilizing force in this rebellion, and give us a generous return on our investment. They should send missionaries here...

There is hope, friends. Many faithful people still love the Scriptures and try to walk in them.

All the best,

G

[doug yowell]

God is in control. His Spirit is moving across the waters.

Of course, but He also was in control when Israel set up it's golden calves in Bethel and Dan.

[doug yowell]

I concur DY.

The third world countries that we helped to bring to the truth may be a stabilizing force in this rebellion, and give us a generous return on our investment. They should send missionaries here...

There is hope, friends. Many faithful people still love the Scriptures and try to walk in them.

All the best,

G

I hope you're right,G. You keep up the good fight,too. Pray without ceasing.

[olger]

I shall. Many blessings to you and yours!

[Woody]

Quote:

There is hope, friends. Many faithful people still love the Scriptures and try to walk in them.

Yes there is ...

[Tom Wetmore]

I'm in the Columbia Union, and most of the executive committee is very liberal. I know many of them personally.

That said, to defy the world church and institute oncoming congregationalism is a bold move - one that will likely have repercussions.

You know many of the 46 or so members... You say most are very liberal. To the man always driving in the far right lane, everyone who passes him is to his left. I'm just saying...

How does congregationalism come of this?

Repercussions? What sort of repercussions do you expect will happen? What sort of repercussions do you think should happen?

[Overaged]

Inapplicable to the context of the posts.

No it's not.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

Inapplicable to the context of the posts.

No it's not.

Should we vote on it to break the tie?

[Overaged]

The "impugning" here has been done by the person who first accused some of us here re being "papal." WO supporters would further their cause much better without such off-topic items being proffered to bolster their case.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Should we vote on it to break the tie?

LOL; go for it Woody!

[Woody]

The "impugning" here has been done by the person who first accused some of us here re being "papal." WO supporters would further their cause much better without such off-topic items being proffered to bolster their case.

Discussing off-topic discussions is well - off-topic. LOL LOL

[olger]

The "impugning" here has been done by the person who first accused some of us here re being "papal." WO supporters would further their cause much better without such off-topic items being proffered to bolster their case.

To quote Kool-aid man "Oh YEAH."

Ps. I like the word "proffered." Extra points..

[teresaq]

There is hope, friends. Many faithful people still love the Scriptures and try to walk in them.

This is implying that those who are for WO do not love the scriptures, nor have prayerfully studied them to come to their conclusions. How do you see that as not impugning the motives of others? How do you see that as not, perhaps, placing yourself in the place of God?

As I have pointed out previously, it could just as easily be said that there is still a "good ole boy" network and mentality at play, calling it "bible".

That God called Ellen White in a day when it was not acceptable to have women preachers should say something. It was going against the culture of that day. Our pioneers had to do a lot of prayerful bible study, and give up preconceived understandings of the scriptures in order to accept her.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: olger

There is hope, friends. Many faithful people still love the Scriptures and try to walk in them.

This is implying that those who are for WO do not love the scriptures, nor have prayerfully studied them to come to their conclusions. How do you see that as not impugning the motives of others? How do you see that as not, perhaps, placing yourself in the place of God?

As I have pointed out previously, it could just as easily be said that there is still a "good ole boy" network and mentality at play, calling it "bible".

That God called Ellen White in a day when it was not acceptable to have women preachers should say something. It was going against the culture of that day. Our pioneers had to do a lot of prayerful bible study, and give up preconceived understandings of the scriptures in order to accept her.

Excellent comments teresa

[lazarus]

I'm in the Columbia Union, and most of the executive committee is very liberal. I know many of them personally.

I've hung around a few of them too! Having dinner with one next week. He's a young attorney from the MD area. Great preacher and serious about Jesus. Not very liberal by any stretch.

To describe most of them as very liberal is quite amusing. That would tell me that you are very very conservative.

[lazarus]

The third world countries that we helped to bring to the truth may be a stabilizing force in this rebellion, and give us a generous return on our investment. They should send missionaries here...

LOL, your "brethren" would run from the churches in even greater numbers if even more from the developing world came here. The most powerful women in ministry will come from the developing countries. Watch out!

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

That is hardly a description of a simple servant or mere helper. The status describe by Paul was of a prominent woman in a leadership and ministry role of the early church.

I agree with some of the points you have made here; but I don't think the texts about Phoebe have a thing to do with "status." Nor can it be definitively stated, from these texts, that she was "prominent" or "in leadership." The text just doesn't say that.

It would seem that Vines Expository Dictionary differs with you on that, not to mention the clear definition in Strongs. And Young's Literal Translation (regarded as among the more accurate translations) does translate prostatis as "leader" -

Quote:

And I commend you to Phebe our sister -- being a ministrant of the assembly that [is] in Cenchrea --

that ye may receive her in the Lord, as doth become saints, and may assist her in whatever matter she may have need of you -- for she also became a leader of many, and of myself.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

That is simply incorrect. The word is diakonos. It is the word from which we derive the English word deacon. And it is used with gender distinction - in reference to Phoebe it is used in its feminine form. And it is indeed used as a church office or position.

This whole chapter of Rom 16 chiefly consists of commendations and salutations of a number of different people, Phoebe included. certainly Phobe is not distinuished in any way as being above the others, as in 'status" or "position." There is no hint in any of the salutations or commendations to all those people addressed in Rom 16, about "Status" or "leadership." The work of Priscilla and Aquila, in risking their lives to help Paul would make the "servant" role of Phobe pale in comparison...nothin about leadership for them either.

That Paul speaks of Phoebe first should be a hint of priority in Paul's mind. That he devotes more words (40 to be exact) in introducing her than he does to any other, including Priscilla and Aquila, should be a significant hint.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

You are using the old term minister as the title of an office, the word itself, even in every Bible context never refers to an office but rather to the equivalent of a servant.It is applied without gender distinction as one who is a common servant. Every Christian is a minister not every Christian is an elder/deacon,ect...

Neither Paul nor his co-workers seem to have thought so highly of themselves, since Paul used that word to refer to himself, as did Jesus. Perhaps they understood the real meaning of their role?

Kinda looks like we want to put some people in more of a papal role than a Christlike one...

[teresaq]

I concur DY.

The third world countries that we helped to bring to the truth may be a stabilizing force in this rebellion, and give us a generous return on our investment. They should send missionaries here...

[doug yowell]

It would seem that Vines Expository Dictionary differs with you on that, not to mention the clear definition in Strongs. And Young's Literal Translation (regarded as among the more accurate translations) does translate prostatis as "leader" -

So what do you think she lead Paul in,Tom? Did she explain the secrets of salvation to him. Did she instruct him on what Gal.3:28 really meant? Did she protect him from doctrinal error. How did her ministration rule over (Heb.13:17,24) Paul? In the context of this discussion, how does the word prostatis clarify exactly what kind of leadership Paul is referring to? Paul in Titus 2:3-5 gives an example of a woman elder's ministry/leadership duties. Is this what you're referring to?

[doug yowell]

That Paul speaks of Phoebe first should be a hint of priority in Paul's mind. That he devotes more words (40 to be exact) in introducing her than he does to any other, including Priscilla and Aquila, should be a significant hint.

Priority of what? Hint of what? If you're suggesting that the first name mentioned indicates the importance of the office or responsibility they held you'll need to give other examples of this predictability throughout Scripture.Would you hold that about Peter,James, and John? In the most obvious reading of Paul's priority Phoebe is the only one mentioned that is not already in Rome. She's on a trip there in order to solicit assistance (notice she's not back at Cenchrea leading the church!)for whatever ministry she is working on and Paul is telling those in Rome to help her with WHATEVER she needs.Paul is not telling the church that Phoebe is a very important Bishop and that they must submit to her authority.Even I can understand that from the text.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

That Paul speaks of Phoebe first should be a hint of priority in Paul's mind. That he devotes more words (40 to be exact) in introducing her than he does to any other, including Priscilla and Aquila, should be a significant hint.

Paul is not telling the church that Phoebe is a very important Bishop and that they must submit to her authority.Even I can understand that from the text.

I think I missed the post where you called Phebe a bishop, capitalized even, and "very important" one at that, Tom. Could you point that particular post out to me?

Isn't "bishop" the word the translators of the KJV chose to use instead of "elder", or "leader"?

Perhaps undue importance is being attached to an unfortunate translation, one that is more in keeping with the fallen churches beliefs, than the real meaning.