SECC gives ordination credentials to men and women pastors

[Tom Wetmore]

Overaged, here is a site with lists of resources and quite a number online - http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/wo/index.htm . And an good compilation of EGW statements is entitled Daughters of God which you can access at http://www.whiteestate.org/ . For sources other than Adventist go to http://www.religioustolerance.org/femclrgy.htm .

And if you are interested, PM me and I can e-mail you a set of documents that I have that are helpful.

[Overaged]

Overaged, here is a site with lists of resources and quite a number online - http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/wo/index.htm . And an good compilation of EGW statements is entitled Daughters of God which you can access at http://www.whiteestate.org/ . For sources other than Adventist go to http://www.religioustolerance.org/femclrgy.htm .

And if you are interested, PM me and I can e-mail you a set of documents that I have that are helpful.

Thanks Tom. I will say I see the religious tolerance site very intolerant of certain views and people. Not really a reliable source, however, I don't mind reviewing it. I am on a quest to see what others are saying about this issue, so it fits...

[Woody]

Personally - I am not as concerned regarding what other sources have to say on the issue. I want to study God's Word. And when I have done that on this issue - it becomes very clear as to what God's will is.

[Overaged]

What other sources are saying can be important if it is from the Bible.

[phkrause]

What other sources are saying can be important if it is from the Bible.

Especially when that source reads and makes there points directly from the Bible.

[Tom Wetmore]

I think that we can also gain some insight from extra-Biblical sources that help us to better understand the cultural and historic context of Scripture. And part of that context is the culture and traditions through which Scripture has been handled and translated/interpreted by the Christian church through the centuries since it was first written.

[phkrause]

I agree Tom. For me I like to read what the Jewish Rabbis have to say about the Hebrew bible since they would have a much better idea as to what there fore fathers meant. Even sometimes its out there in right field!

[CyberGuy]

Originally Posted By: CyberGuy

When women were given permission to be ordained by the church in 1881 Ellen White did not say anything against this.

Wlliam Fagal of the EGW Estate wrote a paper about the committee that tabled the proposal for the ordination of women in 1881. He says it's very likely that if Ellen White thought that an injustice had been done to women, she would have written something about it. The fact that she didn't is evidence that she probably agreed with the committee.

Remember at that time Ellen White was fighting to change the minds of the church in 1881 to change their views on rightousness by faith. EGW sided with Wagner and Jones that we are rightous by faith in Jesus Christ where the church took the view of rightous by works.

This issue of womens ordination was voted by the church and tabled by a committee.

What do you think would happen if that happened today. The world church voted to NOT ordain women in 1995 but a GC committed voted to table that vote and ordain women anyway. What do you think would happen.

In 1881 the church was very small. Just a eastern USA and California church. Not very large at that time.

If we are going to say that because EGW did not speak on a topic she approved of the Status quo is Bogus. Unless she came out and said something pro or con can we with certainly say what she had that viewpoint. Any speculation that the silence meant something is just that. SPECULATION and should not enter into serioius discussion.

Rightous by faith was a far more important issue at this time. More than the ordaination of woman at this time.

[Overaged]

If we are going to say that because EGW did not speak on a topic she approved of the Status quo is Bogus. Unless she came out and said something pro or con can we with certainly say what she had that viewpoint. Any speculation that the silence meant something is just that. SPECULATION and should not enter into serioius discussion.

On the flip side of the coin here; WO proponents have said in one of these WO topics, that if the Bible is "silent" on something [meaning WO] then we should be able to do it. How does that work?

[John317]

Great to see you back on the Forum again, CyberGuy.

You might have fun checking out this link:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/galleries/542285/Cyberguy_Me_and_Neil_D_Pledgin.html

About Ellen White: I think we can be confident that if God wanted her to speak of an injustice done to women in the church because of the church's policy, Ellen White would certainly have said something. I grant you that of itself, that should not be the basis of our doctrine and practice, but when we put it alongside of the Bible evidence regarding women's work in the church, it seems like a pretty convincing argument that the church's view was the correct one at that time. It would be different if Ellen White had written something that plainly encourages women to become ordained pastors and elders.

[CyberGuy]

I saw this movie about a woman scientist in Alexandra Egypt about the 4th century AD. She was a teacher at the great library of Alexandria and was investigating the theory that the world was a round and spinning. She did many tests of dropping a heavy object from a mast of a ship. She theorized that the object should fall a few feet from the mast if the earth was spinning but it fell directly down. She had not grasped Newtons theory of gravity.

She was a pagan but christianity had a strong foothold in Alexandra. Rome still held power at that time.

Pagans revoted against the christains for defacing their idols and the christains retialiated by chasing the pagans to the library and besiging them there.

Rome weeks later sided with the christains as the emperor was a christain and ordered the pagans to surrender the library.

This women saved the most important works in the library before fleeing. The christains burned the library thereby losing the greatest works the world had maybe even works from before the flood saved by Noah.

Later this women was killed by the christains for being the adviser to the roman governor because the Bishop quoted Paul that Paul did not allow a women to give council to a man. She was stoned and her body drug naked through the streets and later burned.

Not a very good view of the early christain church as already they showed intolerance of any viewpoint other than their own viewpoints.

I would hope we have a more tolerant viewpoint on women in the church that this ancient viewpoint.

[John317]

Interesting film and story. Do you know how factually accurate it is? It sounds like it might have been made for the purpose of showing Christians in a bad light. It's true, though, that Christians have often been in the wrong. I don't think anyone would try to defend every position or belief that Christians have had over the last 2000 years.

Would you agree that the SDA Church needs to make sure its practices and doctrines are based on the Bible, and that this includes the roles of men and women in the work of the church?

[Overaged]

I would hope we have a more tolerant viewpoint on women in the church that this ancient viewpoint.

This is not about "intolerance."

[CyberGuy]

It is a true story. Christains at that time were starting to show the first tyrany of the roman church. Conversion by the threat of violence which this movie shows.

This women was given the choice of conversion and silence in other words she would have to give up being a teacher as she would be instructing men or death.

She would not give up her pusuit of science and told them she did not know their God and would not convert to a God she did not know.

[CyberGuy]

The movie name is AGORA

You can get it via netflex. Download it and watch it. It is based on a true story of an Egyptian female scientist in Alexandra Egypt during the 4th century AD. It does show the interaction of christians and Jews and Pagans during that time frame and the burning of the great library of alexandra by the christain mobs. The movie is rated R for it shows the violence between the jews and christains and Pagans during that time and some nudity. No sex though.

[doug yowell]

I agree Tom. For me I like to read what the Jewish Rabbis have to say about the Hebrew bible since they would have a much better idea as to what there fore fathers meant. Even sometimes its out there in right field!

Yes, that's the problem with extra-Biblical sources,helpful and also unhelpful. They often disagree with each other as you know from the divide between the Reform,Conservative, and Orthodox views of Scripture and historical sources.Basing a Bible understanding of ancient culture on what modern interpretation of selected extra-Biblical accounts suggest is not a completely accurate method of understanding Bible truths. The progressive use of this method is often taken for gospel truth without comparison to the Bible record Itself. A comment by a selected Rabbi may be taken to be how the entire culture viewed the value of women. Or a verse from the Apocrypha, twisted completely out of context may be used to show how the pre-Christian Jew ish man valued women. The SS Quarterly employs this approach often. Finally, it should be self-evident to most Jews that the Jewish culture held women in a much higher esteem than did any of the outside societies. This should be also true of Christianity if the gospel had any effect. Progressives are more concerned with equality than truth and the issue has been marketed by them as equality (Gal.3:228)on trial, the march of equality against patriarchal oppression.

[doug yowell]

Interesting film and story. Do you know how factually accurate it is? It sounds like it might have been made for the purpose of showing Christians in a bad light.

That's what I was thinking. A woman scientist in Alexandria in the 4th Century?? Were the Romans and Egyptians known for their open inclusion of educating women to teach in their "universities" during this period? Maybe, but it sounds like another example of historical fiction with an emphasis on the fiction part.Given the heavy Greco/Roman influence historically in Alexandria, one has to wonder when the view of women became so "progressive"and what caused it?

[Woody]

Quote:

On the flip side of the coin here; WO proponents have said in one of these WO topics, that if the Bible is "silent" on something [meaning WO] then we should be able to do it. How does that work?

You would have to ask the author of that statement as to what he was referring to.

I do know that EGW suggested that we use all means available to us and to use new and innovative methods to accompish the spread of the Gospel.

[CoAspen]

Originally Posted By: John317

Interesting film and story. Do you know how factually accurate it is? It sounds like it might have been made for the purpose of showing Christians in a bad light.

That's what I was thinking. A woman scientist in Alexandria in the 4th Century?? Were the Romans and Egyptians known for their open inclusion of educating women to teach in their "universities" during this period? Maybe, but it sounds like another example of historical fiction with an emphasis on the fiction part.Given the heavy Greco/Roman influence historically in Alexandria, one has to wonder when the view of women became so "progressive"and what caused it?

Dismiss, with out researching based on personal opinion???

Hmmm........

[doug yowell]

]

Dismiss, with out researching based on personal opinion???

Hmmm........

No dismissal.Yes skepticism. Personal opinion is subject to accurate history.Sounds kinda fishey so I'll try to get more info before buying the storyline,cool?

[teresaq]

The movie name is AGORA

You can get it via netflex. Download it and watch it. It is based on a true story of an Egyptian female scientist in Alexandra Egypt during the 4th century AD. It does show the interaction of christians and Jews and Pagans during that time frame and the burning of the great library of alexandra by the christain mobs. The movie is rated R for it shows the violence between the jews and christains and Pagans during that time and some nudity. No sex though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia

My sporadic study of history refers to other educated women...not sure why that is not rather commonly known.

[teresaq]

I rather doubt the "Christians" of that age, before or since, really need any help in putting them/ourselves in a bad light.

Seems like not a few of us tend to do pretty well all on our own. Least when I look at my history. Perhaps others see themselves in a better light.

[teresaq]

Yep, from the same source, the rewriting of history, and self-justification

Quote:

Socrates Scholasticus (5th century)

Yet even she fell a victim to the political jealousy which at that time prevailed. For as she had frequent interviews with Orestes, it was calumniously reported among the Christian populace, that it was she who prevented Orestes from being reconciled to the bishop. Some of them therefore, hurried away by a fierce and bigoted zeal, whose ringleader was a reader named Peter, waylaid her returning home, and dragging her from her carriage, they took her to the church called Caesareum, where they completely stripped her, and then murdered her with tiles. After tearing her body in pieces, they took her mangled limbs to a place called Cinaron, and there burnt them." [28]

200 years later

Quote:

John of Nikiû (7th century)

And, in those days, there appeared in Alexandria a female philosopher, a pagan named Hypatia, and she was devoted at all times to magic, astrolabes, and instruments of music, and she beguiled many people through Satanic wiles . . . A multitude of believers in God arose under the guidance of Peter the Magistrate . . . and they proceeded to seek for the pagan woman who had beguiled the people of the city and the Prefect through her enchantments. And when they learnt the place where she was, they proceeded to her and found her . . . they dragged her along till they brought her to the great church, named Caesareum. Now this was in the days of the fast. And they tore off her clothing and dragged her . . . through the streets of the city till she died. And they carried her to a place named Cinaron, and they burned her body with fire.[20]

[teresaq]

yeah, I see that"s why you did an actual search for yourself... instead of just dismissing it out and out.

... one has to wonder when the view of women became so "progressive"and what caused it?

yeah, might have been "feminism", oh dear!

[Overaged]

I rather doubt the "Christians" of that age, before or since, really need any help in putting them/ourselves in a bad light.

There were/are true christians in every age.