SECC gives ordination credentials to men and women pastors

[BobRyan]

I did not write the NT - I am just reporting the facts - not writing the text.

Your argument is with the text.

In the case of Acts 15 - James does "render his decision" as though he is the presiding authority. I will grant you that.

Interesting that as SDAs we do not have that church model today.

The part we DO retain is the part where the entire church council reaches a decision - and the rest of the church abides by it - as though accountable to God for doing so.

That probably did not sit well with a few of the Christians back in Paul's day - and likely does not sit well with a few even today.

in Christ,

Bob

[Tom Wetmore]

The story isn't about church authority. It is about reaching a compromise to advance the work of spreading the gospel.

That is not correct about circumcision. Read Genesis 17. The original command from God to Abraham was to circumcise all males of his household whether his offspring or not, including foreigners. Also read Exodus 12:43-48. In order for a gentile to become Jewish or a part of the household of Israel, a son of Abraham, they had to be circumcised. Since the early Jewish Christians considered themselves to still be Jewish, converts also had to become Jews first and be circumcised, at least according to those raising the ruckus in Antioch.

And that Paul had Timothy circumcised only confirms what I noted earlier, different practices allowed for the gentiles did not mean the Jews had to stop circumcising so all would do the the same thing.

[CyberGuy]

The world church will never vote to ordain women. Not when the majority of the membership is in south america and africa where women are conisered the property of the men. Daughters are the property of the father until they are married and then they are the property of the husband.

We fought with the world church in 2005 on the right for a women to divorce her husband on the grounds of spousal abuse without getting disfellowshiped for it.

The world church would not allow it. So Europe, North America and Australia tabled it and brought it back friday afternoon when most of the delegates from South america and Africa had left and they passed it.

Now I admit this was a sneaky procedual trick but the world church would never have allowed this as long as south america and Africa delegates where there.

Do we need to pull a similar procedual trick to get womans ordaination passed. Would it then be legal just because a accepted quorum voted to accept it.

[CyberGuy]

The north American division is moving slowly towards giving women equal rights.

Just recently the NAD removed the requirement for a conference president had to be ordained to be conference president thus opening the way for a woman to be conference president.

SECC already has a woman secretary. You may very well see a woman conference president in the very near future at SECC.

[Woody]

Quote:

You may very well see a woman conference president in the very near future at SECC.

Praise God for His leading. I am so proud of the church and it's recent movements.

[CyberGuy]

Southern Union voted to not ordain women but to treat their women pastors as second rate pastors who will never be ordained because that is the will of the world church. They have not the courage to do what is fair and just. Then again that is men who voted that. Got to protect their job security I guess.

[Woody]

That is really sad .......

[CyberGuy]

The problem I have with the world church voting on wither to allow womens ordination or not is that we allow the world church to vote their personal bias on women as ministers. This one size fits all just does not work in our world. It is true that women in the ministry may not work in some cultures. It would in others. In some states I understand that only and ordain minister of the church can perform marriages. Thus this would mean women could not perform a marriage in those states.

After the 2005 precedural vote that allowed women to divorse without being disfellowshiped in cases of physical abuse some in the world church said they would not abide by that vote as it was done in a sneaky way when most of the delegates from africa and south america had gone home on friday afternoon and it was unbiblical so they would not abide by the vote. I cannot say if they actually ignored this vote or not but it does show that unity on the gray areas such as ordaining women is impossible when brought before the world church. So why bother. Just do it conference by conference union by union.

After all we do not have a universal one size fits all retirement plan where an african pastor gets the SAME retirement plan as we do in north america with the same pay etc. That is a division by division plan. It should be the same for women ordination. Forget the what the world church thinks on this. This is not a theological question but a cultural question anyway.

[Woody]

Excellent comments.

[Overaged]

Forget the what the world church thinks on this.

[CyberGuy]

Southern California conference voted to support womens ordaination.

http://scc.adventist.org/assets/388198

[CyberGuy]

The GC responded by saying that according to church policy only the Union can ordain so Southeastern ordaining women is illegal.

The Pacific Union responded by calling for a special Constituency meeting to make ordaination of women legal.

[CyberGuy]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Pacific Union Conference of Seventh-day Adventists

CONTACT:

Gerry Chudleigh

Communication Director

2686 Townsgate Road

Westlake Village, CA 91361

Mail to: (PO Box 5005, 91359)

www.puconline.org

Office: 805-413-7286

Union committee calls special constituency session to authorize ordinations without regard to gender

By Gerry Chudleigh

At their March meeting, the Pacific Union executive committee voted to table until May 9 a motion that would immediately approve the ordination of ministers without regard to gender. They also set up an Ordination Study Committee to outline the steps necessary to make gender-neutral ordinations a reality as soon as possible.

Today at the La Sierra University Alumni Center, that committee delivered their report to the full executive committee. The committee replaced the original motion with a new one and voted overwhelmingly to call a special constituency meeting, tentatively scheduled for August 19.

The committee voted separately on the main motion, including the preamble. The preamble and main motion were approved by a vote of 42-2. The process, which includes calling a special constituency session, was approved unanimously.

Voted (preamble):

* Whereas Scripture is clear that the end-time Church is blessed precisely because men and women preach God's message (Joel 2:28-29 and Fundamental Belief 17);

* Whereas we are commanded to "act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with our God (Micah 6:8);

* Whereas "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for all are one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28);

* Whereas "differences between male and female must not be divisive among us" and "we are to serve and be served without partiality or reservation" (Fundamental Belief 14);

* Whereas the Seventh-day Adventist Church is co-founded by a woman, Ellen G. White, who remains an authoritative and guiding voice;

* Whereas the Pacific Union is enriched by Spirit-filled women who are responding to God's call in our schools, churches and conferences;

* Whereas the Seventh-day Adventist Church assigns Unions the final decision-making authority and responsibility with respect to ordination (NAD Working Policy L45 05 3, Spring Council 2012 116-12G Report);

* Whereas the Pacific Union Conference voted its full commitment to Women's Ordination, August 30, 1995 (reaffirmed May 12, 2010 and March 15, 2012);

Therefore, [main action]

* The Pacific Union Conference Executive Committee will approve or disapprove candidates for ordination without regard to gender, effective when the Union Bylaws are amended.

The Process

Voted, approval for the following process:

* Because the Pacific Union Conference Executive Committee is committed to following denominational procedures and processes, and to facilitate the involvement of the entire Union constituency, a special constituency session will be called to consider amendments to the Pacific Union Conference Bylaws to clearly authorize the ordination of ministers without regard to gender.

* The Pacific Union Conference Bylaws Committee will examine the Union bylaws and suggest amendments to clearly authorize the ordination of ministers without regard to gender.

* The Pacific Union Conference will provide an informational packet for the delegates, pertinent to the issues to be discussed in the special constituency session.

Both the study committee and the executive committee made it clear that they are committed to following established church processes and procedures. Their recommendations and actions were guided in large part by a summary of church structure prepared earlier this year by the General Conference and distributed at GC spring meetings. The full name of the document is The General Conference and Its Divisions - a Description of Roles and Relationships in Light of Organizational Structure Development, Current Governance Documents, and Practices. That documents makes clear that:

Authority and responsibility in the Seventh-day Adventist Church is not centralized in a hierarchical structure. Instead authority and responsibility is distributed throughout the Seventh-day Adventist Church structure ....

The distribution of authority and responsibility in the Seventh-day Adventist Church is illustrated by the following examples of how and where final decision-making authority and responsibility are located ....

The document goes on the explain that the "final authority and responsibility" for deciding who will be a church member is located at the local church; the "final authority and responsibility" for the employment/assigning of pastors and other workers resides at the local conference; and the "final authority and responsibility" for deciding who will be ordained is officially located at the unions.

The committee also considered that the same paragraphs that declare ordination decision are to be made by the unions, not by the divisions or the General Conference, include this counsel:

It is to be understood that the exercise of authority and responsibility is done within the context of the belief, values, and policies of the entire church. No entity is authorized to exercise its authority and responsibility in a manner that is contrary to the interests of the whole church and its activities in fulfilling its mission.

Obviously the distribution of authority found in the Seventh-day Adventist Church can result in tension between world-wide policy and the "final authority and responsibility" which has been assigned to the congregations, conferences and unions. The GC document has much to say about balancing those centers of authority, especially in the final Conclusions and Recommendations:

The following paragraphs and sentences are chosen from the Conclusion to the GC Spring Document. The full document will be made available in the next few days.

The distribution of authority and responsibility in the Church along with the recognition that "authority rests in membership" presents significant challenges in finding a balance between centralized authority (actions of the global church) and the more localized authority (actions of the constituency) in churches, conferences and unions.

At the same time the church has worked to preserve unity, the effect of church growth has enlarged the understanding of diversity and its rightful place in a worldwide community. To expect that every entity in the world church will look and function exactly like every other entity of its type may in itself become an impediment to mission. The development of structural designs in the history of the church indicates that unity must be built on a stronger foundation than uniformity.

There must be room to recognize the need for a legitimacy of local adaptation of policies and procedures that facilitate mission while not diminishing the worldwide identity, harmony and unity of the Church.

The relationship among the entities of the church is more than a matter of law and policy. Therefore attempts to codify that relationship will always be inadequate. The primary strength of the Church comes not from its structure but from its collective desire to live out a commitment to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Such a commitment embraces a call to community.

Pacific Union executive committee members made it clear during discussions this week that they are committed to taking seriously the "final" authority and responsibility that the Seventh-day Adventist church has assigned to unions. And they made it clear that their call for a special constituency session is not to be interpreted as a way to delay the ordination of all whom God has called to ministry. It is rather, the result of a commitment to follow church procedures and to make sure the final action, whatever it is, is backed by the full authority that the Seventh-day Adventist Church has assigned to the Pacific Union Conference.

[Overaged]

SECC already has a woman secretary.

OOOH. A woman secretary. How rebellious.

[Overaged]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

the "final authority and responsibility" for deciding who will be ordained is officially located at the unions.

Sounds like another loophole theology tenet coming up. Nothing that a quiet midnight meeting/vote can't handle. (to make it legal)

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: CyberGuy

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

the "final authority and responsibility" for deciding who will be ordained is officially located at the unions.

Sounds like another loophole theology tenet coming up. Nothing that a quiet midnight meeting/vote can't handle. (to make it legal)

They called for a special constituency session well ahead of time according to the laws and bylaws of the Union. Nothing here to suggest any midnight meetings. I think that is an unfair characterization.

All of this is a movement which is lawful and under the plan of President Wilson to bring CHANGE and reformation to our church. Praise God for his timely leadership in our church.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: CyberGuy

SECC already has a woman secretary.

OOOH. A woman secretary. How rebellious.

The Secretary is one of the top 3 officers - President, Secretary and Treasurer. There are very few women that are conference treasurers and even fewer that are conference secretaries.

These offices are considered to be of equal standing within in Church policy. The phrase in reference to the role of the president in relationship to the secretary and treasurer is that "the president is first among equals."

The Secretary in many conferences is also the in charge of the Ministerial Department which functionally is the pastors' pastor. Ironic that the the pastor of the pastors would be a woman holding a lesser credential.

[CyberGuy]

The union constituency meeting is in three months. This has been sent to all the conferences and all will send delegates to debate and vote on the change of the bylaws as authorized by church policy. There is nothing secret or illegal in this change. It can be voted up or down.

If passed then that frees the Pacific union to ordain regardless of Gender.

[Woody]

Quote:

If passed then that frees the Pacific union to ordain regardless of Gender.

Oh Yeah. U know - the next thing they be wantin' will be to ordain regardless thee color. Now if they be anythinkin' that might be riling up the folks of color - it be that. They be enjoyin' their own segregated conferences.

[phkrause]

Oh Yeah. U know - the next thing they be wantin' will be to ordain regardless thee color. Now if they be anythinkin' that might be riling up the folks of color - it be that. They be enjoyin' their own segregated conferences.

What may I ask does that mean?

[Woody]

Quote:

What may I ask does that mean?

lol. It don't mean nuthin' pk. It's just pure nonsense if I am allowed to characterize it in that fashion. Pay no mind to it. (just my poor attempt at humor - of which I failed terribly.)

[CyberGuy]

yup. That was a poor attempt at humor of no one got it.

[Overaged]

The world church will never vote to ordain women. Not when the majority of the membership is in south america and africa where women are conisered the property of the men. Daughters are the property of the father until they are married and then they are the property of the husband.

We fought with the world church in 2005 on the right for a women to divorce her husband on the grounds of spousal abuse without getting disfellowshiped for it.

The world church would not allow it. So Europe, North America and Australia tabled it and brought it back friday afternoon when most of the delegates from South america and Africa had left and they passed it.

Now I admit this was a sneaky procedual trick but the world church would never have allowed this as long as south america and Africa delegates where there.

Do we need to pull a similar procedual trick to get womans ordaination passed. Would it then be legal just because a accepted quorum voted to accept it.

For clarification: to those who objected to my earlier comment re "legal loop hole theology" and "midnight meeting." This is what I was referring to. Even a veiled threat to do so again is to me indicative of where the whole source of this quest for "rights" is coming from. Someday; it may happen that people will wake up and realize that "ordination" is not about "rights;" women's or other-wise.

[Overaged]

The Secretary is one of the top 3 officers - President, Secretary and Treasurer. There are very few women that are conference treasurers and even fewer that are conference secretaries.

These offices are considered to be of equal standing within in Church policy. The phrase in reference to the role of the president in relationship to the secretary and treasurer is that "the president is first among equals."

The Secretary in many conferences is also the in charge of the Ministerial Department which functionally is the pastors' pastor. Ironic that the the pastor of the pastors would be a woman holding a lesser credential.

That secretary is NOT in charge of the Pastors though, so I am not sure what your point is.

[Stan]

That secretary is NOT in charge of the Pastors though, so I am not sure what your point is.

That is not always the case.