SECC gives ordination credentials to men and women pastors

[CyberGuy]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

CONTACT: Enno Mueller, Interim Communication Director

Southeastern California Conference

951.509.2258

enno.mueller@seccsda.org

March 22, 2012 (Riverside, CA) – The Executive Committee of the Southeastern California Conference

voted today “to remove the term ‘Ordained-Commissioned’ and replace it with the term ‘Ordained’ on

all ministerial credentials, regardless of the gender of the credential holder.” This is effective immediately.

Since 2000 the conference had issued “Ordained-Commissioned” ministerial credentials to men and

women.

The committee believes this step will enable all pastors to better fulfill the conference’s mission statement,

which is the expansion of God’s kingdom through preaching, teaching, publishing and living of the

everlasting gospel throughout the cross-cultural communities of its territory.

###

Southeastern California Conference is the administrative headquarters for the more than 70,596

members of 156 churches and companies. The conference employs 177 pastors that hold ministerial

credentials, of which 10 are female. The conference territory encompasses the Imperial, Orange,

Riverside, San Bernardino and San Diego counties. Southeastern California Conference is one of seven

conferences that make up the Pacific Union Conference, which has approximately 222,000 members and

is one of nine union conferences that form the North American Division. The North American Division has

more than 1 million members.

http://secc.adventistfaith.org/news_entries/14788

[Overaged]

The Executive Committee of the Southeastern California Conference

voted today “to remove the term ‘Ordained-Commissioned’ and replace it with the term ‘Ordained’ on

all ministerial credentials, regardless of the gender of the credential holder.” This is effective immediately.

Since 2000 the conference had issued “Ordained-Commissioned” ministerial credentials to men and

women.

The committee believes this step will enable all pastors to better fulfill the conference’s mission statement,

which is the expansion of God’s kingdom through preaching, teaching, publishing and living of the everlasting gospel throughout the cross-cultural communities of its territory.

I am not so sure just HOW this move will make such a big difference in ministry effectiveness. One does not even need to be ordained to teach and preach the Word effectively no matter what the cultural climate.

[CyberGuy]

One could argue 150 years ago that they can not see how freeing the slaves will make any difference in the salvation of the slaves. Still it was the right thing to do. It was the moral thing to do.

Woman pastors do the same thing that the men pastors. Why not give them the same credentials to basically say to them. You are doing the same job your male counter parts are doing. We will treat woman pastors no differently than the men pastors.

if scripture teaches anything it is this. God is fair and just. He does not play favortism to men or women. All have equal rights to spread the word and all should be treated the same.

[Gail]

Wow- CyberGuy- haven't seen you for a long time! Nice of you to drop in :)

[Overaged]

I think it's the connotation that the church is "playing favorites" and other such things that makes me hold the opinion I do. I don't agree that that is what is happening, and I think that if indeed a cause is justified, there should be no need for such accusations. Either something is Biblical, or it isn't. It should be able to stand on it's own, Biblical support without the innuendo; because it just isn't true.

[CyberGuy]

There is biblical support for slavery. Those bible texts were quoted all the time before the civil war. Does that mean we should condone slavery just because the bible supported it during the times when cultural values supported it.

EGW makes it clear that God is very much against slavery.

For years our church paid woman less than men doing the same job. Biblical reasons were given for that. It took a woman Mary Kay taking the church to court to change the church policy on that matter.

Two GC sessions ago our church put a proposal on the table to allow women to divorse their husbands for spousal physical abuse. The world church in africa and south america tabled that proposal. It was acceptable in their culture for a man to beat his wife and if she divorsed him he would have her disfellowshipped from the church.

The church from Europed and North American and Australia waited until Friday afternoon when most of the delegates went home and brought the proposal back and passed it. A sneaky way of doing it but it worked. Now is it biblical to divorce for spousal abuse? EGW makes it clear that a woman should not stay with her husband if this kind of abuse goes on. Still the bible does not cover it directly. Do we allow it to go on and throw the woman out of the church because the bible does not cover this. After all it is not adultery.

[Overaged]

There is biblical support for slavery. Those bible texts were quoted all the time before the civil war. Does that mean we should condone slavery just because the bible supported it during the times when cultural values supported it.

EGW makes it clear that God is very much against slavery.

For years our church paid woman less than men doing the same job. Biblical reasons were given for that. It took a woman Mary Kay taking the church to court to change the church policy on that matter.

Two GC sessions ago our church put a proposal on the table to allow women to divorse their husbands for spousal physical abuse. The world church in africa and south america tabled that proposal. It was acceptable in their culture for a man to beat his wife and if she divorsed him he would have her disfellowshipped from the church.

The church from Europed and North American and Australia waited until Friday afternoon when most of the delegates went home and brought the proposal back and passed it. A sneaky way of doing it but it worked. Now is it biblical to divorce for spousal abuse? EGW makes it clear that a woman should not stay with her husband if this kind of abuse goes on. Still the bible does not cover it directly. Do we allow it to go on and throw the woman out of the church because the bible does not cover this. After all it is not aldultery.

There is also Biblical support, and plenty of it, for men and women having different roles, some being related to gender,, (out of inherited necessity), and some not. And none of these Biblical roles are demeaning, abusive, or any such thing.

While I do support women in ministry; my original question here was HOW does ordaining women as Pastors all of a sudden make them "more effective" in said ministry? The lady Pastors I know are wonderful at their jobs, and they couldn't care less about being "ordained." To me; people should consider this issue more carefully. Seems it has just been made into a wayward rights issue of some kind, and not really based on sound Biblical exposition.

That being said; you make a very interesting point re spousal physical abuse. I wonder if the churches that made those midnight votes also made the same provision for men who are victims of spousal physical abuse? But the abuse thing is very real. I had a customer once come up to me and whisper in my ear after his wife questioned the color of paint he asked me to do in their house. And I never forgot what he said: "I wish it was legal in Canada to JUST beat them a little." "Just a little;" he said!

In your OP; I understood the main point you made to be that women would be "more effective" in ministry, as pastors, if they were ordained? I don't see that point at all. It seems to me, from my experiences, that whenever this subject is questioned too closely, the ones onside with supporting ordination of women as Pastors resort to digression with things like slavery, Mary Kay, secret midnight meetings of GC officers, denigrating character and motive of the church or of individuals questioning it; etc. etc. I have never seen yet just a solid, Biblical case for ordination of women as pastors. I think the agenda that suggests the church is somehow not being fair to women over this issue is an agenda that we should be staying away from; yet our leading officials in some countries embrace it.

Is there a solid Biblical case to show how women would be more effective if ordained, or if they even should be ordained? Just show it to me. Thats all I am asking. I don't want to debate away about all the other side issues. I just want to see, for once, someone make a good case for just this, from the Bible.

[Naomi]

Good post OA ... it should be interesting to sit back and watch how this plays out.

[Overaged]

Yes; that will be interesting.

I think the agenda that says women must be ordained in order to be "equally" treated is a path we, as a church need to stay away from.

Years ago, I got a white collar job in nursing. Director of Client Service, for a national Home Care company. It was a position predominately held by women, and it usually had to be women with several degrees, and certifications.

I looked at that job description, and said to myself; "I sure would love to do that job!" I had absolutely none of the required degrees or certifications; I needed help to put my neck tie on properly for the interview, I was male; plus, when I walked into the interview room to meet the big corporate boss who flew in for the interview; I tripped over the phone cord, sent the phone flying like a missile at the poor guys head, and fell flat on my face, right in front of him!!

Now, you tell me; would it be fair, or 'equal" to all those fine ladies with their degrees to hire a guy "like me?"

[Naomi]

Yes; that will be interesting.

I think the agenda that says women must be ordained in order to be "equally" treated is a path we, as a church need to stay away from.

Years ago, I got a white collar job in nursing. Director of Client Service, for a national Home Care company. It was a position predominately held by women, and it usually had to be women with several degrees, and certifications.

I looked at that job description, and said to myself; "I sure would love to do that job!" I had absolutely none of the required degrees or certifications; I needed help to put my neck tie on properly for the interview, I was male; plus, when I walked into the interview room to meet the big corporate boss who flew in for the interview; I tripped over the phone cord, sent the phone flying like a missile at the poor guys head, and fell flat on my face, right in front of him!!

Now, you tell me; would it be fair, or 'equal" to all those fine ladies with their degrees to hire a guy "like me?"

No it would not have been fair. But if you had a recording of your interview, it might make some money on World's Funniest Videos

Sorry for enjoying a good laugh at your expense, but the visual is ever so funny

[doug yowell]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

CONTACT: Enno Mueller, Interim Communication Director

Southeastern California Conference

951.509.2258

enno.mueller@seccsda.org

March 22, 2012 (Riverside, CA) – The Executive Committee of the Southeastern California Conference

voted today “to remove the term ‘Ordained-Commissioned’ and replace it with the term ‘Ordained’ on

all ministerial credentials, regardless of the gender of the credential holder.” This is effective immediately.

Since 2000 the conference had issued “Ordained-Commissioned” ministerial credentials to men and

women.

The committee believes this step will enable all pastors to better fulfill the conference’s mission statement,

which is the expansion of God’s kingdom through preaching, teaching, publishing and living of the

everlasting gospel throughout the cross-cultural communities of its territory.

###

Southeastern California Conference is the administrative headquarters for the more than 70,596

members of 156 churches and companies. The conference employs 177 pastors that hold ministerial

credentials, of which 10 are female. The conference territory encompasses the Imperial, Orange,

Riverside, San Bernardino and San Diego counties. Southeastern California Conference is one of seven

conferences that make up the Pacific Union Conference, which has approximately 222,000 members and

is one of nine union conferences that form the North American Division. The North American Division has

more than 1 million members.

http://secc.adventistfaith.org/news_entries/14788

So what's new? The SECC has been doing this thing for over 20 years.They are ingenious at playing word games and creating new formulas for doing what they think is morally right in defiance of what the world church has directed to be a world wide SDA policy. They tried this sort of thing in the early 1990's in a less subtle way and took it to the constituency meeting for approval. This was almost immediately following the GC vote against it and the obvious intent of that vote.Union president Steven Gifford, a supporter of WO, made a special trip to the meeting in order to urge the constituency members to vote the proposal down because of it's violation of GC policy. When you are more morally and culturally in sync with the voice of the Holy Spirit you are justified in using any means to accomplish God's goals even if it means using deceptive wording,straw man arguments,establishing independent authority,issuing committee edicts, or alienating otherwise faithful members.I know the workings of the leadership of this conference over the past 20+ years and I have no confidence that they are in tune with God's leading in any area.When their "Biblical" arguments are non-persuasive to the majority of the world church they feel free to attribute it to the intrenched cultural ignorance of their fellow Christian's. This spiritual blindness, as Tom has repeatedly stated, has been effectual in blinding even Ellen White and our church founders as well as the thousand years of Biblical scholarship where the majority of the Bibles produced after the emergence of the Roman church are slanted by their translator's (anti-women)biases.The real issue here is not strictly the proper understanding of what the Bible says about the roles of men and women but rather whether or not the Bible can be clearly understood in it's present state.WO proponents portray their opponents as uneducated and bigoted,unresponsive to the call of the Holy Spirit,the modern day equivalent of slavery supporters... and that just describes the women who oppose WO!!

[doug yowell]

I think it's the connotation that the church is "playing favorites" and other such things that makes me hold the opinion I do. I don't agree that that is what is happening, and I think that if indeed a cause is justified, there should be no need for such accusations. Either something is Biblical, or it isn't. It should be able to stand on it's own, Biblical support without the innuendo; because it just isn't true.

Exactly. Was God playing favorites when He disallowed any females in the OT priesthood? Did Jesus play favorites when He failed to include any women in His inner circle of 12? Did God play favorites when He revealed that "...the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church..."?

[doug yowell]

The committee believes this step will enable all pastors to better fulfill the conference’s mission statement,

which is the expansion of God’s kingdom through preaching, teaching, publishing and living of the everlasting gospel throughout the cross-cultural communities of its territory.

One needs to call this reasoning exactly what it is,either intentionally deceptive or stupid!! Were the women in the early NT church unable to better fulfill the church's mission statement in reaching the cross-cultures of the world because they didn't have "ministerial credentials"? Did EGW's credentials make her ministry more effective? Is the conference suggesting that a person, man or woman,is somehow less empowered to preach,teach,publish, or live(!!)the everlasting gospel if they lack this conference committee "ordination"?? That's scary!

[Tom Wetmore]

* * *

While I do support women in ministry; my original question here was HOW does ordaining women as Pastors all of a sudden make them "more effective" in said ministry? The lady Pastors I know are wonderful at their jobs, and they couldn't care less about being "ordained." ...

In your OP; I understood the main point you made to be that women would be "more effective" in ministry, as pastors, if they were ordained? I don't see that point at all. ...

Is there a solid Biblical case to show how women would be more effective if ordained, or if they even should be ordained? Just show it to me. Thats all I am asking. I don't want to debate away about all the other side issues. I just want to see, for once, someone make a good case for just this, from the Bible.

This just begs the question, "How does ordaining men as pastors make them 'more effective' in ministry?" "Why do we ordain men?"

Make the case from the Bible why men should be ordained to effectively serve as pastors. If you can do that you will have the answer to your question.

[Daryl]

Good post!

Originally Posted By: Overaged

I think it's the connotation that the church is "playing favorites" and other such things that makes me hold the opinion I do. I don't agree that that is what is happening, and I think that if indeed a cause is justified, there should be no need for such accusations. Either something is Biblical, or it isn't. It should be able to stand on it's own, Biblical support without the innuendo; because it just isn't true.

Exactly. Was God playing favorites when He disallowed any females in the OT priesthood? Did Jesus play favorites when He failed to include any women in His inner circle of 12? Did God play favorites when He revealed that "...the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church..."?

[Gordon1]

"Why do we ordain men?"

Make the case from the Bible why men should be ordained to effectively serve as pastors. If you can do that you will have the answer to your question.

Because both God and Christ ordained men; we follow God's order.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

"Why do we ordain men?"

Make the case from the Bible why men should be ordained to effectively serve as pastors. If you can do that you will have the answer to your question.

Because both God and Christ ordained men; we follow God's order.

I'm not saying that I disagree Gordon1, but as Tom has asked, make the case from the Bible and show where anyone was ordained? Don't just say well God and Jesus did! Show where they did? Thank you.

[Tom Wetmore]

And the question was really how does ordination make a man more effective. The assumption was that women should be ordained to be more effective. So why does it make them more effective, or in other words, how does that make them more effective.

That simply begs the question of what difference ordination makes for a man. How does it make them more effective?

Now show the Biblical basis for that answer.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

* * *

While I do support women in ministry; my original question here was HOW does ordaining women as Pastors all of a sudden make them "more effective" in said ministry? The lady Pastors I know are wonderful at their jobs, and they couldn't care less about being "ordained." ...

In your OP; I understood the main point you made to be that women would be "more effective" in ministry, as pastors, if they were ordained? I don't see that point at all. ...

Is there a solid Biblical case to show how women would be more effective if ordained, or if they even should be ordained? Just show it to me. Thats all I am asking. I don't want to debate away about all the other side issues. I just want to see, for once, someone make a good case for just this, from the Bible.

This just begs the question, "How does ordaining men as pastors make them 'more effective' in ministry?" "Why do we ordain men?"

Make the case from the Bible why men should be ordained to effectively serve as pastors. If you can do that you will have the answer to your question.

Fair enough question Tom; however, your question is just a debate question, not based upon facts. The first thing that needs to be noted is that no one, including myself, has said that men need to be ordained as pastors, in order to be "more effective." They are ordained for other reasons which the Bible does make clear, for those who care to follow what scripture teaches.

[Overaged]

I did ask earlier in this thread, before Tom's question, for the OP to please make a similar case for us from the Bible. Not sure if we will get that or not, time will tell.

[Overaged]

Now, you tell me; would it be fair, or 'equal" to all those fine ladies with their degrees to hire a guy "like me?"

[CoAspen]

This continuing saga and others like it, remind me of the article in the recent Review about Giants and Grasshoppers. In this day and time our 'giants' are the same. The real issue that the Israelite nation did not enter into Canaan the first time was a lack of trust in Gods guidance, not the size of the people, which was an excuse.

Today, we retreat into a historical view of everything, bend words and meanings, rise up about esoteric minutia we will not have answers to till Christs come, all in the name of 'correctness' or 'purity of theology' just like the Jewish nation of old. Our theology correctness has become the 'giant' of the last days, once again, except when Christ comes this next time, it will be the last time. Are we going to slay the 'giants' or retreat into the wilderness of ignoring Gods leading?

Can Not God speak for Himself? Is it not time for the bickering to stop of one-upness, superiority, who is the leader, etc, etc, etc and let the Holy Spirit lead us on to the promised land?

This whole debate is rotting away at the very soul of salvation, Believe on the Lord and be saved!!!!

[doug yowell]

And the question was really how does ordination make a man more effective. The assumption was that women should be ordained to be more effective. So why does it make them more effective, or in other words, how does that make them more effective.

That simply begs the question of what difference ordination makes for a man. How does it make them more effective?

Now show the Biblical basis for that answer.

It is a fair question, one which deals with the very foundation of the practice itself.Now that roles are in question so is the ceremony that determines the role. It's hardly possible for someone to give an exhaustive study on the role of ordination in this thread but at least we should affirm that the Bible is filled with examples of "ordinations". These are particularly connected with the laying on of hands in the NT.Here are a few examples:Mark 3:13-15,Acts 1:20-26,13:1-4,14:23,I Tim.4:14,5:22.My brief study failed to uncover the idea that ordination was a ceremony that acknowledged a gift already exhibited.Seems like the laying on of hands was an empowerment which officially bestowed the gift and specific duties of authority. Maybe someone else saw something different, but it appears that the ordination made the recipient capable of ministering not"more" effective (unlike graduating with a seminary degree).It also seemed to convey the official church stamp of approval to represent it's mission.Not everyone with a spiritual gift was ordained even though everyone had a spiritual gift.Ordination indicated a separation.

[Tom Wetmore]

Fair enough question Tom; however, your question is just a debate question, not based upon facts. The first thing that needs to be noted is that no one, including myself, has said that men need to be ordained as pastors, in order to be "more effective." They are ordained for other reasons which the Bible does make clear, for those who care to follow what scripture teaches.

No, it is not a debate question. It is essential to the theological study commissioned by the GC for the various Biblical Research Committees of the Divisions. We must know why we ordain anyone for any purpose. What is the point of it? What is it's purpose? What is it supposed to mean? Why do we ordain men as pastors?

So setting aside the quibbling over "more effective", what are the reasons Scripture gives to ordain men as pastors? (That really is what the question is about and not degrees of relative effectiveness...) If the Bible does make it clear, a reference or two shouldn't be hard to come up with.

[doug yowell]

This continuing saga and others like it, remind me of the article in the recent Review about Giants and Grasshoppers. In this day and time our 'giants' are the same. The real issue that the Israelite nation did not enter into Canaan the first time was a lack of trust in Gods guidance,