SECC gives ordination credentials to men and women pastors

[doug yowell]

No, it is not a debate question. It is essential to the theological study commissioned by the GC for the various Biblical Research Committees of the Divisions. We must know why we ordain anyone for any purpose. What is the point of it? What is it's purpose? What is it supposed to mean? Why do we ordain men as pastors?

Here's a pretty good starter: I Tim.3:5 If the home is a good model of the church this instruction should be pretty clear. How bout: Eph.5:22-32? Again the marriage and family model for the running of the church.Titus 1:5-9 verifies this very model.If elders were to be ordained in order to "rule" then Titus 1:5 is a perfect example of it's necessity in the early church.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Fair enough question Tom; however, your question is just a debate question, not based upon facts. The first thing that needs to be noted is that no one, including myself, has said that men need to be ordained as pastors, in order to be "more effective." They are ordained for other reasons which the Bible does make clear, for those who care to follow what scripture teaches.

No, it is not a debate question. It is essential to the theological study commissioned by the GC for the various Biblical Research Committees of the Divisions. We must know why we ordain anyone for any purpose. What is the point of it? What is it's purpose? What is it supposed to mean? Why do we ordain men as pastors?

So setting aside the quibbling over "more effective", what are the reasons Scripture gives to ordain men as pastors? (That really is what the question is about and not degrees of relative effectiveness...) If the Bible does make it clear, a reference or two shouldn't be hard to come up with.

Well Tom; while it MIGHT be the case that "more effective" is not the priority question here; my purpose in trying to discuss the "more effective" has nothing to do with "quibbling" at all. I am basing my comments and questions upon the OP which stated that when the SEC did this thing; this was (apparently) a major reason they gave for doing it. Therefore, it is an obligation of the OP or others here to explain that. How would this proposed ordination with women make them "more effective?"

I asked well before your question in a post above if someone such as yourself could make a Biblical case for women getting ordained to make them "more effective;" and you choose to ignore this and just "ask" us to do that for male ordination. That my friend is debate. Not based on fact, and devoid of the purpose of actually figuring the problem from the Bible. The question is exactly as I asked it, because it is inline with the OP and his very clear statement re same.

As another poster said above: "It will be interesting to see how this plays out."

[Overaged]

The committee believes this step will enable all pastors to better fulfill the conference’s mission statement, which is the expansion of God’s kingdom through preaching, teaching, publishing and living of the everlasting gospel throughout the cross-cultural communities of its territory.

[Stan]

If you have been involved in middle east culture, the land of the Bible, it is not a "God thing" for a man to lay his hands on a woman. Thus ordination of a women by men, would not be considered a "God thing"

I am not against giving females the same status of males in any calling or job, just do now know how it should be done. Waiting for the BRI release on this that should be out by this fall.

In the mean while, minister to those who need to be ministered to, pray for the sick, support the widows, cloth the naked, feed the hungry, visit those in prison, spread the gospel.

[teresaq]

I think the agenda that says women must be ordained in order to be "equally" treated is a path we, as a church need to stay away from.

God forbid that women should be paid the same as men. After all the bible, in the eyes of some, is "quite clear" on gender roles.

And again, God forbid that others may not see those oh so clear roles in the bible believed to be seen by those "some".

Not seeing those presumed clear roles automatically makes them "liberals" in the eyes of the above some, therefore evil...

Hmmmm, tends to remind me of a certain historical church and its mentality.

[teresaq]

Is there a solid Biblical case to show how women would be more effective if ordained,...

Hmmm, so exactly how does laying hands on any man make them more effective?

You don't see some kind of magical imparting to the individual in the act of laying on of hands, or setting someone aside for a certain ministry, do you?

[teresaq]

WO proponents portray their opponents as uneducated and bigoted,unresponsive to the call of the Holy Spirit,the modern day equivalent of slavery supporters... and that just describes the women who oppose WO!!

There are not a few women who blame their underage daughters for being molested by the mother's husband, be it real or step father.

There are not a few women who try to keep other women in a "Stepford Wives" the remake, mentality, any way they can. Too many women, as well as men, are just living out the dysfunction of their families of origin, which unfortunately is their "normal".

I can't say that I have seen any real biblical reasons against WO from those opposed. I have read pages of bias before one sees any scripture introduced. I have read the most horrible twisting of unrelated scripture to prove God will burn people in hell for it (Hmmm, there's that historical church mentality again.)...Denunciations against those who would study the individual scriptures that might apply...

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Is there a solid Biblical case to show how women would be more effective if ordained,...

Hmmm, so exactly how does laying hands on any man make them more effective?

You don't see some kind of magical imparting to the individual in the act of laying on of hands, or setting someone aside for a certain ministry, do you?

Once again. READ THE OP I did not say that ordination would make anyone, male or female, 'more effective" for anything. The OP said this about women, and I am asking for PROOF OF THAT STATEMENT..

[Overaged]

I have read the most horrible twisting of unrelated scripture to prove God will burn people in hell for it (Hmmm, there's that historical church mentality again.)...

You didn't read that kind of stuff in this thread.

[Overaged]

Here are the Viking Laws for the SECC to study:

# 1 Be brave and aggressive.

Be direct.

Grab all opportunities. Use varying methods of attack.

Be versatile and agile.

Attack one target at a time.

Don't plan everything in detail.

Use top quality weapons.

# 2 Be prepared.

Keep weapons in good condition.

Keep in shape.

Find good battle comrades.

Agree on important points.

Choose one chief.

# 3 Be a good merchant.

Find out what the market needs.

Don't make promises that you can't keep.

Don't demand overpayment.

Arrange things so that you can return.

# 4 Keep the camp in order.

Keep things tidy and organized.

Arrange enjoyable activities which strengthen the group.

Make sure everyone does useful work.

Consult all members of the group for advice.

[Tom Wetmore]

...I asked well before your question in a post above if someone such as yourself could make a Biblical case for women getting ordained to make them "more effective;" and you choose to ignore this and just "ask" us to do that for male ordination. That my friend is debate. Not based on fact, and devoid of the purpose of actually figuring the problem from the Bible. The question is exactly as I asked it, because it is inline with the OP and his very clear statement re same...

Quite to the contrary on all points, that is precisely at the very heart of the opposition response to the idea that female pastors should be treated equally to their male counterparts. What is now being ignored is the oft-repeated opposition response - "Why do women need to be ordained? They can just do ministry without being ordained just as they have been doing already as commissioned ministers." The implication is that ordination would not really make any difference for those women since they can just keep on doing ministry since they are already allowed to and are doing everything their fellow male pastors are doing.

All true. But that begs the question at the heart of all of this. If the women pastors can and do function fully as pastors equally in all respects as their male counterparts, why are they credentialed unequally? If a commissioned pastor, male or female, (yes, there are male commissioned ministers) serves equally with an ordained male pastor, what exactly is the difference that ordination really makes as compared to being commissioned? What is the point of that distinction between them if all else is really equal? For those asking to be able to ordain their female pastors it is not about whether they can serve as pastors. They are already doing that. It is about recognition of the reality that they are.

That is why I have repeatedly said that the real opposition is not about ordaining women. It is opposition to women as pastors. As has been repeatedly acknowledged, even by those in opposition, ordination is fundamentally a human recognition of a divine calling. Those staunchly in opposition simply do not recognize that a woman can be, should be, or has been called to pastoral ministry. If you listen carefully, it usually comes around to something about women as pastors that they do not like or that they question.

The facts are that women are serving as pastors and doing so successfully by all factors by which pastoral success is determined by the Church. There is no real difference qualitatively and functionally between them and their male colleagues in ministry. They are functionally equal, and those they serve recognize it. Within the churches and conferences where they serve, they are valued and appreciated. Yes, there are unsuccessful female pastors and poor matches to congregations. But the same is also very true for men in pastoral ministry.

These women are bringing souls to Christ and nurturing and building up the body of Christ. That is the Biblical foundation of qualification for ordination recognized by the Church. It works for men. That is the decisive evidence that is the basis for ordaining a man to pastoral ministry. Why not for women?

And that is the dilemma. Despite the facts and clear evidence concerning women in ministry for the entire history of the Adventist Church, there remain doubters and naysayers that simply do not believe the evidence. Many of them have not witnessed the evidence themselves and seem not to believe or trust their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who have seen the evidence. The problem is simply this - people that do not recognizing the evidence of women being called to ministry, either from not seeing it themselves or not believing and trusting those that have.

For 42 years now, all of my adult life, every congregation that I have been a part of has always had at least one full-time female pastor and have always had actively involved ordained female elders along with male elders. Deaconesses have always been ordained along side of the male deacons. I have served with all of them and been served by them. I and my family have witnessed first hand the evidence that these women are called by God and served that calling faithfully, no differently from their male counter-parts. The members recognize it. But the Church officially will not allow us to officially affirm what we see by ordaining them.

Why? Are we doomed to wait for all of the doubters to believe before we can move on?

[doug yowell]

Here are the Viking Laws for the SEC to study:

Did you mean the SECC? They're located in Southern California, the Vikings are in Minnesota.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

WO proponents portray their opponents as uneducated and bigoted,unresponsive to the call of the Holy Spirit,the modern day equivalent of slavery supporters... and that just describes the women who oppose WO!!

There are not a few women who blame their underage daughters for being molested by the mother's husband, be it real or step father.

There are not a few women who try to keep other women in a "Stepford Wives" the remake, mentality, any way they can. Too many women, as well as men, are just living out the dysfunction of their families of origin, which unfortunately is their "normal".

See what I mean?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

WO proponents portray their opponents as uneducated and bigoted,unresponsive to the call of the Holy Spirit,the modern day equivalent of slavery supporters... and that just describes the women who oppose WO!!

There are not a few women who blame their underage daughters for being molested by the mother's husband, be it real or step father.

The major difference being that those women may blame their daughters but they don't encourage their husbands to molest them.

[doug yowell]

That is why I have repeatedly said that the real opposition is not about ordaining women. It is opposition to women as pastors.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Isn't that the Bible way? If we're all one body and being lead by the same Holy Spirit that will lead us into all truth,wouldn't it be better to wait(since this is not a moral issue,right?)for unity, like the church in Acts 15, than to risk dividing with the majority of the world church doubters? ]

10 spies, we should wait, the giants(issues) are too big for us. 40 years later, the 10 and a majority of the people have died. Get closer to and posses the promised land(heaven) now or die in the wilderness of misery?

[Overaged]

yup

[doug yowell]

Quote:

Isn't that the Bible way? If we're all one body and being lead by the same Holy Spirit that will lead us into all truth,wouldn't it be better to wait(since this is not a moral issue,right?)for unity, like the church in Acts 15, than to risk dividing with the majority of the world church doubters? ]

10 spies, we should wait, the giants(issues) are too big for us. 40 years later, the 10 and a majority of the people have died. Get closer to and posses the promised land(heaven) now or die in the wilderness of misery?

Joshua and Caleb went in with ALL the people. God didn't give them a special dispensation for an early head start. However, when the doubters in the story decided to go ahead and try to enter the "promised" land (are we comparing this promise and the goal of the entire journey with WO?) without God's leaders it didn't go so well either.I just don't see the abolition of gender roles as being one of God's greatest spiritual gifts to fallen mankind.

[teresaq]

I have gone back and read and reread...and still am not seeing where the OP said "more effective"...Is it possible that is what you read his post to mean?

Is there a solid Biblical case to show how women would be more effective if ordained,...

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

This continuing saga and others like it, remind me of the article in the recent Review about Giants and Grasshoppers. In this day and time our 'giants' are the same. The real issue that the Israelite nation did not enter into Canaan the first time was a lack of trust in Gods guidance,

God's guidance was explained in God's Word.

Doug, I'm not sure what you mean with this post to CoAspen's post? Could you explain it a little more for me? Because at that time they did not have God's word per say! So not sure what your saying or trying to say. I could be wrong, but hey aren't we all on occasion.

[Overaged]

Actually, you are correct. The exact words "more effective" were not used by the OP. But words which mean the same thing were. "More effective" is a term coined by me for the following phrase used by the OP:

Quote:

The committee believes this step will enable all pastors to better fulfill the conference’s mission statement,

So I am still wondering how ordaining would accomplish this. :)

[M. T. Cross]

More effective I think because of many peoples idea that an ordained person "knows more". While that may be a misconception in many cases, there are a great number of people that will think that.

[Overaged]

Actually, you are correct. The exact words "more effective" were not used by the OP. But words which mean the same thing were. "More effective" is a term coined by me for the following phrase used by the OP:

Quote:

The committee believes this step will enable all pastors to better fulfill the conference’s mission statement,

So I am still wondering how ordaining would accomplish this.

And I might add, now that I read this again, the quote by the OP which I am referring to seems to be making reference to both male & female pastors, so this would rule out that I am just making a biased reference to one gender in asking my question. So my question remains; how would changing the present order of things, and ordaining female pastors make them "more effective" or "better able" to carry out the Conference mission statement?

[Overaged]

More effective I think because of many peoples idea that an ordained person "knows more". While that may be a misconception in many cases, there are a great number of people that will think that.

Yes; that I can see. And i do agree; it would in most cases be a great misconception.

[teresaq]

The same way it does for men, as has been asked by others? If being "ordained" is not needed for women pastors why is it needed for males?

Actually, you are correct. The exact words "more effective" were not used by the OP. But words which mean the same thing were. "More effective" is a term coined by me for the following phrase used by the OP:

Quote:

The committee believes this step will enable all pastors to better fulfill the conference’s mission statement,

So I am still wondering how ordaining would accomplish this.