SECC gives ordination credentials to men and women pastors

[Woody]

Please

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

I agree with Woody; this is a good quote Tom; but I would add that it does not mean anything goes...

The above quote from OA on #546657 - Today at 09:18 AM

Let me see ??? Which is first ???

#546693 - Today at 06:02 PM

or

#546657 - Today at 09:18 AM

yep - the evidence is clear. (perhaps not for WO opponents)

OA mentioned "goes" at 9:18 AM which is prior to 6:02 PM when Woody mentioned it in reference to when OA stated it.

WOW !!! No wonder it is difficult to explain WO to this crowd.

I rest my case. When asking what "goes" means - we will have to ask OA.

From the pic that OA has as evidence - it would seem that OA has severely damaged something.

Man - I'm sure glad this is on Natter Matters.

Well; you are not even making sense now. I gues this will have to be yet another topic I opt out of. I'm not into these little games.

[Woody]

That makes sense to me ....

[Tom Wetmore]

But women did not serve as priests in the Old Testament (Exodus 28:1, Numbers 3:1-13) nor did they serve in the leadership/teaching role of elder or pastor in the New Testament (1 Timothy 2:11-14; 3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9; 1 Corinthians 14:33-36).

The priestly role of the OT is not particularly relevant since the special priestly system was done away with. (Read Hebrews) The result is summarized by the NT declaration of "the priesthood of all believers." That "all" doesn't seem to exclude anyone, male or female. So relying on the OT role of priests seems inapplicable.

Phoebe is referred to by Paul in Romans 16 by the same term translated for men as "minister". And he further specifically describes her as a woman in charge of others, i.e., a female leader, specifically instructing the Roman believers to do whatever she asked of them. That would indicate a woman to whom they were to look for guidance and instruction.

The reference in Titus if subscribed to completely would also exclude men who are unmarried/widowed/divorced/remarried since the requirement specifically is to have " one wife". The reference would also exclude a childless man or a man whose children (regardless of age) were not in the church or even unruly.

As for elders, Paul also instructs Timothy in 1 Timothy 4 and 5 regarding his working relationship with the body of elders that had ordained him. Paul instructs him to respect both the male and female elders regardless of their age relative to his own. The Greek term for "elders" is used in chapter 5 in both its masculine and feminine form.

And the women silent in church and not teaching men needs to be reconciled with Paul's other statements regarding women praying and prophesying in church. If we are to subscribe to the literal reading of these verses alone without reference to others or to context, than ordaining women is a moot point. They could not even serve as pastors speaking in any capacity in church or even teachers of any male past the age of 13. Even EGW was in violation of that silence in church idea. I think it also fair to say she instructed many men.

And speaking of EGW, reconcile her statement that both men and women should be prepared for being pastors with the idea that women were not pastors in the NT.

Quote:

All who desire an opportunity for true ministry, and who will give themselves unreservedly to God, will find in the canvassing work opportunities to speak upon many things pertaining to the future, immortal life. The experience thus gained will be of the greatest value to those who are fitting themselves for the ministry. It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God."--6T 322.

[Tom Wetmore]

Ellen White was never ordained. After more than 25 years of her prophetic ministry, the church voted her the credentials of an ordained minister, but she indicated in 1909 (when she was in her eighties) that she had never been ordained (Arthur L. White, Spectrum , 4, 2 [spring 1972] :7). Nor did she ever exercise the special functions of an ordained minister, such as performing marriages, baptizing, and organizing local churches. As are all church members, she too was ordained of God to work for Him and was given a special work to do. But she was never ordained by human hands.

We have gone over this a bunch of times already. She was ordained by the highest authorities possible. I'm thinking God's hand on her trumped anything human hands could do. That was the essence of her statement regarding her ordination by God. Nothing else was necessary. The Church's ordination is a means of officially recognizing a reality. If the highest authoritative body of the Church, the General Conference, recognized her as being an ordained minister of the Church, I think that official recognition is enough to be accepted as reflecting the reality of the matter. She was ordained and was given a credential reflecting the reality.

[Woody]

excellent summary Tom

[olger]

Galatians 3:28

This whole letter deals with two dangers in Galatia:

* Building faith on the Law of Moses rather than the promise of Abraham.

* Second, interpreting liberty of the Spirit as license for the flesh.

The theme is the inheritance of the blessing promised to Abraham and his “seed.” It could not be inherited by a slave or a girl or a Gentile. Jesus fulfills the conditions and is the obvious son and “Heir.” How then can anyone else share in this inheritance and blessing? The answer is simple.

By total identification with Christ anyone can claim the inheritance !! Through faith in Jesus a person is baptized into Him, crucified with him (2:20) is clothed with Him, is in Him, and belongs to Him (verse 29; Galatians 4:5).

Because all are sons, all are heirs, which daughters could never be (3:29). So in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, only Jew; neither slave nor free, only free; not male and female, only male.

If this verse is lifted out of its inheritance context and taken to abolish all sexual differences (neutered in Christ), it would contradict Paul’s teachings on homosexual relations (Romans 1-24-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9), on the duties of husbands and wives (Colossians 3:18-19; (Ephesians 5:22-23), on slaves’ attitude to their masters (Ephesians 6:5-9; Colossians 3:23–4:1) and in particular his qualifications of women’s ministry in the church (1 Corinthians 11:3-16; 14:33-38; 1 Timothy 2:11-14).

To accuse Paul of such inconsistency is a grave charge, with implications for the inspiration of the whole Scripture as well as his personal Christian integrity. To enlarge one verse of Scripture into a social or ecclesiastical manifesto is unwarranted and misleading, particularly in view of Paul’s specific teaching on the subject.

“Christian Feminists” have hailed this statement in Galatians as the epitome of their inspiration—and hated Paul for almost everything else he said on the subject!

rejoice always,

G

[teresaq]

Quote:

Ellen White was never ordained. After more than 25 years of her prophetic ministry, the church voted her the credentials of an ordained minister, but she indicated in 1909 (when she was in her eighties) that she had never been ordained (Arthur L. White, Spectrum , 4, 2 [spring 1972] :7). Nor did she ever exercise the special functions of an ordained minister, such as performing marriages, baptizing, and organizing local churches. As are all church members, she too was ordained of God to work for Him and was given a special work to do. But she was never ordained by human hands.

We have gone over this a bunch of times already. She was ordained by the highest authorities possible. I'm thinking God's hand on her trumped anything human hands could do. That was the essence of her statement regarding her ordination by God. Nothing else was necessary. The Church's ordination is a means of officially recognizing a reality. If the highest authoritative body of the Church, the General Conference, recognized her as being an ordained minister of the Church, I think that official recognition is enough to be accepted as reflecting the reality of the matter. She was ordained and was given a credential reflecting the reality.

According to Ellen White's husband in "Life Sketches" she did indeed organize local churches. They traveled all over the country organizing churches, as did other ministering couples. It seems to me some wish to minimize what women accomplished for the church back then...

Or perhaps our priorities have really become jaded to think that dunking people, or pronouncing words over couples, could possibly be higher than the work that Ellen White and other women did. Let the deacons do the baptizing and marrying of people that people like Ellen White have already shepherded and established in the faith.

But let's pay them, as we pay the men, according to the testimony of Ellen White. Equal pay for equal work. That is what it is about, pure and simple. The church was against it in her day, and still has a problem with it while the higher-ups, in the SDA church, get paid, how much?

[Stan]

there is not a different pay scale for men and women.

[Gordon1]

excellent summary Tom

If God instructs a female prophet to share a message from heaven, this does not authorize all women to be prophets, or to speak for God.

[Woody]

there is not a different pay scale for men and women.

However - If you are not "ordained" then you receive less pay.

[Woody]

If God instructs a female prophet to share a message from heaven, this does not authorize all women to be prophets, or to speak for God.

[CoAspen]

[doug yowell]

The priestly role of the OT is not particularly relevant since the special priestly system was done away with. (Read Hebrews) The result is summarized by the NT declaration of "the priesthood of all believers." That "all" doesn't seem to exclude anyone, male or female. So relying on the OT role of priests seems inapplicable.

[teresaq]

If women are doing the same work as men, yet are not allowed to be ordained then there certainly does seem to be, in my mind anyway. And that is what it seems to come down to. If women are basically shepherding the flock excepting for dipping people in water and pronouncing words over them, two comparatively minor functions, teaching the word of God and visiting the flock being of much more important consequence, again in my mind anyway.

[Stan]

They can baptize.

IN some Church organization the one who lead the person to Christ baptizes them.

The Great Commission Jesus gave did not say only ordained Clergy can baptized. The Christian Church kinda added that.

[teresaq]

The only reason the Sanctuary system was set up in Israel was because of the degradedness of the people. Even towards the end before the babylonian captivity it is recorded that the people had still not turned to the Lord with all their heart.

When the people came out of slavery the Lord gave instructions but He did not take everything away from them, such as multiple wives.

Given those facts, I don't believe the priesthood of the Sanctuary system can be used as any kind of criteria as to God's intent for women.

[teresaq]

They can baptize.

IN some Church organization the one who lead the person to Christ baptizes them.

The Great Commission Jesus gave did not say only ordained Clergy can baptized. The Christian Church kinda added that.

[teresaq]

Quote:

Phoebe is referred to by Paul in Romans 16 by the same term translated for men as "minister".

You are using the old term minister as the title of an office, the word itself, even in every Bible context never refers to an office but rather to the equivalent of a servant.It is applied without gender distinction as one who is a common servant. Every Christian is a minister not every Christian is an elder/deacon,ect...

Neither Paul nor his co-workers seem to have thought so highly of themselves, since Paul used that word to refer to himself, as did Jesus. Perhaps they understood the real meaning of their role?

Kinda looks like we want to put some people in more of a papal role than a Christlike one...

[Tom Wetmore]

Quote:

Phoebe is referred to by Paul in Romans 16 by the same term translated for men as "minister".

You are using the old term minister as the title of an office, the word itself, even in every Bible context never refers to an office but rather to the equivalent of a servant.It is applied without gender distinction as one who is a common servant. Every Christian is a minister not every Christian is an elder/deacon,ect...

That is simply incorrect. The word is diakonos. It is the word from which we derive the English word deacon. And it is used with gender distinction - in reference to Phoebe it is used in its feminine form. And it is indeed used as a church office or position. In the KJV it is used 31 times, translated 20 times as minister, 8 times as servant, and 3 times as deacon. It is not used simple and only as an ordinary household servant. This from Vines:

Quote:

Diakonos is, generally speaking, to be distinguished from doulos, "a bondservant, slave;" diakonos views a servant in relationship to his work; doulos views him in relationship to his master. See, e.g., Mat 22:2-14; those who bring in the guests (vv. 3, 4, 6, 8, 10) are douloi; those who carry out the king's sentence (v. 13) are diakonoi.

Some commentators have described it as significantly used to identify a public minister of the king, one whose function is to carry out the will of of the king.

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Quote:

And he further specifically describes her as a woman in charge of others, i.e., a female leader, specifically instructing the Roman believers to do whatever she asked of them. That would indicate a woman to whom they were to look for guidance and instruction.

Here's how the text reads in the NKJ: "I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, who is a SERVANT of the church in Cenchrea, that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and ASSIST HER IN WHATEVER BUSINESS SHE HAS NEED OF YOU;for indeed she has been A HELPER of many and of myself also." Where is the "in charge of others" that correlates to a head pastoral/elder/bishop/deacon position? Phoebe had an obvious important ministry role in which she provided critical support for others including Paul.This verse doesn't teach that she was the head of the church at Cenchrea.

The word translated as "servant" is diakonos. The word translated as "helper" is prostatis. (Rather poorly to match the diminished significance of the woman Phoebe as merely a servant)

Prostatis means "1) a woman set over others; 2) a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources."

Strongs further notes that it is a derivative of the verb proistemi translated most often as "rule" meaning to set over, to be over, to superintend, preside over.

Regarding prostatis Vines has this to say:

Quote:

It is a word of dignity, evidently chosen instead of others which might have been used (see, e.g., under HELPER), and indicates the high esteem with which she was regarded, as one who had been a protectress of many. Prostates was the title of a citizen in Athens, who had the responsibility of seeing to the welfare of resident aliens who were without civic rights. Among the Jews it signified a wealthy patron of the community.

That is hardly a description of a simple servant or mere helper. The status describe by Paul was of a prominent woman in a leadership and ministry role of the early church. Paul's introduction of Phoebe to the believers in Rome was setting her before them to lead them. He was appointing her as the bishop/elder of the church in Rome. He had entrusted his letter to them to her to deliver to them. That would also strongly imply she was an educated woman able to read it to them. Given the low literacy rate a person delivering a letter typically had to read it to the recipients.

This understanding about Phoebe is far from a modern feminist idea. It was published in the 19th Century in the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald in the early days of the Adventist Church.

[Overaged]

That is hardly a description of a simple servant or mere helper. The status describe by Paul was of a prominent woman in a leadership and ministry role of the early church.

I agree with some of the points you have made here; but I don't think the texts about Phoebe have a thing to do with "status." Nor can it be definitively stated, from these texts, that she was "prominent" or "in leadership." The text just doesn't say that.

[Overaged]

That is simply incorrect. The word is diakonos. It is the word from which we derive the English word deacon. And it is used with gender distinction - in reference to Phoebe it is used in its feminine form. And it is indeed used as a church office or position.

[doug yowell]

The only reason the Sanctuary system was set up in Israel was because of the degradedness of the people. Even towards the end before the babylonian captivity it is recorded that the people had still not turned to the Lord with all their heart.

When the people came out of slavery the Lord gave instructions but He did not take everything away from them, such as multiple wives.

Given those facts, I don't believe the priesthood of the Sanctuary system can be used as any kind of criteria as to God's intent for women.

Given that many of the surrounding pagan religions had women priests(clergy)God could have easily instituted a worship system that also reflected the degraded cultures of the day, but He didn't. Ellen White likens the man's role in his home to that of the high priest, she does not attempt to send the Sanctuary types into the cultural trash can.The OT system serves as a guide in principle one that is reflected in the way we live in the NT. Even the practice of polygamy had principled guidelines that insured the basic protection of the main institution of marriage and both woman's respect for her husband and his respect and protection of her dignity.Peter notes that Sarah called Abraham "Lord", why does that apply today if the wife is is the spiritual protectorate of the church?

[Overaged]

Given that many of the surrounding pagan religions had women priests(clergy)God could have easily instituted a worship system that also reflected the degraded cultures of the day, but He didn't.

I have always thought it a little odd the way we so often try to let "culture" determine our beliefs, and then we call it "Biblical." Seems a little backwards to me.

[doug yowell]

That is hardly a description of a simple servant or mere helper.