Does the Bible Condemn Homosexual Practices?

[Kevin H]

The actual words in their historical language and the historical context of those languages, why was it translated the way it was and is there a better way to translate it etc.

[John317]

Kevin, after all you've studied in the Bible, do you believe the Bible teaches that homosexual practices are sinful? Or do you believe that well-informed Christians can practice homosexuality in good conscience knowing that God approves of it?

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

I have only heard part of the evidence. I use to hold very strongly to the tradition, but I've learned enough to come to the belief that I I might be wrong and need to look at the evidence, and be fair to the Bible even if the Bible does not say what I expect it to say.

Are you talking about Bible evidence?

What more evidence do you need to know in order to understand whether the practice of homosexuality is wrong or not?

[John317]

The actual words in their historical language and the historical context of those languages, why was it translated the way it was and is there a better way to translate it etc.

Could you discuss 2 Peter 2: 4-10 in the light of the above?

[John317]

The actual words in their historical language and the historical context of those languages, why was it translated the way it was and is there a better way to translate it etc.

Those things don't change the essential message of the Bible regarding human sexuality, which is that sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman is sin.

You're right that it would be wrong for me to have sex with my friend at this time, since I'm married; but my question is whether it was wrong for me to have a sexual relationship with him BEFORE I got married.

Is the fact that I'm married the primary reason that it would be wrong for me to have sex with my gay friend?

What I'm really getting at is whether you (and other SDAs also) believe the Bible teaches it would have been OK from God's viewpoint for me to marry him?

[Kevin H]

John, you are asking for questions that all I can say is that I changed from being as confident as you are to learning that there are enough questions that make me question if I really know the Biblical Evidence on this point or if I am wrong on this point. I shared some of the discussion, not by some gay liberation society, not by some athiests rejecting the Bible, not from some liberal theologians, but from some very conservative, investigative judgment believing, hightly educated in the ancient languages and cultures who are discussing Biblical Evidence. I will try to fit the book into my reading when it is published. But please don't ask me to answer questions that are outside of my level. I am not a Desmond Ford who is willing to answer with equal authority in what I have not studied just because there are fields that I have given good study to.

There are four levels of education: Those who don't know and dont know that they don't know; Those that don't know but know that they don't know; Those that are starting to know but not proficient; and those with a workable knowlege.

At times here I share what I have studied. Other times I share evidence that I have not had the chance to study but which I share the fact that there are pieces of evidence that exist in case others choose to persue evauating the evidence.

All I am saying is that I use to believe firmly what you believe on this topic. But then learned that there is Biblical Evidence that is being studied and shared that I have not had more than a passing hearsay in but am impressed in the sources, and simply want to review the evidence for myself and want to encourage others to realize that there is information out there that we might not have been fair to that we need to evaluate for ourselves. Is that too much to ask for? And I think that some of your questions are approprate to either ask yourself while reading the book and not to someone who is undecided and is only aware that information exists.

[olger]

There is an answer for homosexuality, Kevin. And we know what it is.

[John317]

John, you are asking for questions that all I can say is that I changed from being as confident as you are to learning that there are enough questions that make me question if I really know the Biblical Evidence on this point or if I am wrong on this point.

We need to know what is sin so that we will know what to pray about and what we need to resist and overcome. It's impossible to overcome as Christ overcame if we're not sure what is wrong with us. Also, if we believe something is good when it is sinful, we are liable to let opportunities pass when we should be encouraging each other to do right. If the church believes homosexuality is OK, it will help people sin instead of helping them live righteously for God.

For the last three days I've been visiting a gay friend of mine. Back in the 1970s, we almost got married, but instead God led both of us to accept Christ and to be baptized and join the SDA Church. There's no way that the Holy Spirit led him back into the practice of homosexuality.

If you believe the practice of homosexuality is sinful and that God would lead him back to Christ and freedom from sin, I solicit your prayers for my dear, dear friend. If, on the other hand, you aren't sure if the practice of homosexuality is wrong, I sugggest that you pray urgently for yourself that God will convict you of the truth as you study the topic in His word.

[doug yowell]

There are four levels of education: Those who don't know and dont know that they don't know; Those that don't know but know that they don't know; Those that are starting to know but not proficient; and those with a workable knowlege.

And there is one that has been left off the list; Those who know that they don't know, but don't care to know.

[Gordon1]

Kevin,

God is responsible for speaking clearly on moral issues which affect salvation. The Bible directives are even for the simplest of minds, not just the rich with computer resources, municipal libraries, Christian bookstores.

Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not kill, nor commit adultery.

Abomination.

These words are not ambiguous.

You often quote from historical and theological texts, but that time could be spent studying the source of all knowledge, the Bible. If you want answers, get a KJV Bible and an Exhaustive Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries.

"Learned oommentaries" cannot make us wise unto salvation.

[olger]

Kevin,

God is responsible for speaking clearly on moral issues which affect salvation. The Bible directives are even for the simplest of minds, not just the rich with computer resources, municipal libraries, Christian bookstores.

Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not kill, nor commit adultery.

Abomination.

These words are not ambiguous.

You often quote from historical and theological texts, but that time could be spent studying the source of all knowledge, the Bible. If you want answers, get a KJV Bible and an Exhaustive Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries.

"Learned oommentaries" cannot make us wise unto salvation.

True Gordon, and the spirit bears witness to truth.

[Twilight II]

Yes.

Next question please.

+1

[JonathanPenner]

Originally Posted By: John317

"Jesus also taught that when people desire to have homosexual relations, it is a sin."

Where do you get this idea? Where is the battle if it isn't linked to our desires? Synonyms of desire include; appetite, attraction, craving, hunger, libido, inclination, thirst, propensity, liking, urge, want or longing. While I love God, accept Jesus sacrifice, believe in His claim that I am accepted and saved from eternal separation from Him, I still struggle in various areas of my life with temptation. And my best understanding of temptation is that I desire things that God clearly has shown me will hurt and destroy me over time. While I trust God, He has not yet removed ALL desire for sinful things that grab my attention. Even when Jesus was tempted, do you really think He didn't desire the bread. I'm sure He was craving the bread, but chose to follow His Father's desire rather than His own. The absence of desire for good or evil has far more alignment with Buddhist teachings than Christian.

Originally Posted By: John317

"Those who pass the test and are chosen to become members of the Kingdom of God will have all memories of this life deleted."

What test are you referring to? When will we know we've passed the exam? Is it a "pass or fail" kind of exam? Is this the test that helps us clarify who's in and who's out? Is the test all about what we've done or is it about what Jesus has done?

Also where does the Bible say all memories will be deleted? If all memories are deleted how will we be eternally grateful to Jesus for the sacrifice He made? If this is true, I'm sure we'll have an endless stream of questions like... How did you get those scars in your hand? Why are all the Angels so amazed at what you did for us humans? Actually, who are humans and haven't we always lived here in heaven? What was earth? You talk about sin, what is that?

If ALL our memories were removed would we be who we are? Although my Dad is still alive and lives within a healthy body, his Alzheimer's has progressed very rapidly. Most of his memories either no longer exist or he can't seem to recall or share them. Because of this deletion of his memory it is as though he has died. He is no longer the same person he was when his memory was in tact and strong. The removal of memory is in many ways the removal of who we are. Where do you get this idea from?

[olger]

"Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind" (Isaiah 65:17).

g

[JonathanPenner]

So do we have a choice or is it simply part and parcel with being part of the new heavens and new earth? Will the Angels also have their memories cleared? If not they would need to be sworn to secrecy or else they might tell the rest of us what happened here on earth.

In no way am I discounting Isaiah when I say this, but my real question is what does this verse really mean. Is it as simple as a reformat of our brains. Kind of a heavenly lobotomy. Or does it mean that the former things will become a distant memory. The kind of distant memory we don't even bother to talk about or bring "to mind" anymore.

[olger]

Some good questions. If we "hold out faithful" as the song says, we will surely know, and it will better than we hoped.

Rejoice always,

`oG

[John317]

"Jesus also taught that when people desire to have homosexual relations, it is a sin."

Originally Posted By: JonathanPenner

Where do you get this idea?

Didn't Jesus teach that it is a sin to desire what is wrong? The Bible definitely teaches that it's sinful to practice homosexuality, so it follows that it's not only sin to practice it but it's a sin to desire to practice it. In other words, Jesus taught that sin begins with the desire in the mind and heart.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

"Those who pass the test and are chosen to become members of the Kingdom of God will have all memories of this life deleted."

What test are you referring to? When will we know we've passed the exam? Is it a "pass or fail" kind of exam? Is this the test that helps us clarify who's in and who's out? Is the test all about what we've done or is it about what Jesus has done?

Also where does the Bible say all memories will be deleted? If all memories are deleted how will we be eternally grateful to Jesus for the sacrifice He made? If this is true, I'm sure we'll have an endless stream of questions like... How did you get those scars in your hand? Why are all the Angels so amazed at what you did for us humans? Actually, who are humans and haven't we always lived here in heaven? What was earth? You talk about sin, what is that?

If ALL our memories were removed would we be who we are?

I agree completely with you here, and I never made the statement above that you attributed to me. I wouldn't make such a statement because it flatly contradicts what I believe.

What post did you get the quote from?

[Kevin H]

I always thought that if what we believe is true that we should not be afraid to really study it in scripture. From some of the responses here I guess that it is a mistake to really want to study the Bible. We have what we believe the Bible teaches so let's stop there cause who knows what would happen if we really look close at that book.

[John317]

Kevin, you may still be studying the issue and not able to come to a conclusion, but that doesn't mean that everyone else is in the same situation you are. You are mistakenly assuming that no one else has studied the issue. I personally have every reason to want the Bible to condone homosexuality. But I have prayerfully studied the subject in the Bible over the last 40 years and have come to the conclusion that the Bible does indeed condemn homosexual practices. I can't help it that you don't know what the Bible teaches. It's a shame that after all these years of Bible study, you still have no clue.

[John317]

.... Jesus never mentioned homosexuality.

It's quite true that Jesus never mentioned "homosexuality" by that name, but that's because the name didn't even exist in Christ's day. However, Jesus' message in the Gospels include all forms of sexual immorality, in the Greek word, porneia [fornication, sexual immorality], as used in Matthew 5: 32. It's the same word that's used in 1 Cor. 5: 1, where Paul says, "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife." Paul also uses it in 1 Cor. 5: 11:

"...now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality ...—not even to eat with such a one." It's related to the word, pornos, translated "catamite," "a fornicator or impure person," in 1 Cor. 5: 9, 10, 11; 1 Cor. 6: 9.

The Bible is not teaching that it's OK for a man or woman to have sex with members of their own gender but that it's a sin to have sexual relations outside of marriage with members of the opposite sex.

The Bible clearly condemns all forms of sexual relations outside of marriage between a man and a woman. Otherwise, it would mean that while it's wrong for me to have sexual relations with any female besides my wife, I'm at perfect liberty in God's sight go to bed with any male I might choose.

[olger]

Kevin's statement reminds me of Brian McClaren's 2006 statement in Christianity Today.

[Kevin H]

Kevin, you may still be studying the issue and not able to come to a conclusion, but that doesn't mean that everyone else is in the same situation you are. You are mistakenly assuming that no one else has studied the issue. I personally have every reason to want the Bible to condone homosexuality. But I have prayerfully studied the subject in the Bible over the last 40 years and have come to the conclusion that the Bible does indeed condemn homosexual practices. I can't help it that you don't know what the Bible teaches. It's a shame that after all these years of Bible study, you still have no clue.

John, quite acting like those anti-investigative judgment people, this is twisting my words. I'm saying that there may be new evidence that I had not been aware of prior, new discoveries in the language and how to translate the words and cultural applications of the words and that it might be wise to look at this evidence. Instead of teaching that we have nothing more to learn so don't bother looking at the evidence, why not allow people to present their evidence and either show problems with the evidence, or how it is a misapplicaiton of the evidence or simply follow the evidence to where ever it leads. If we are right we have nothing to fear by studying further evidence. If we are wrong we want to know how we can grow closer to the scriptures.

One of my former professors use to say "My students ask if I am going to give the same final exam this semester that I gave the last semester, my standard answer is 'the questions don't change but the answers might as we learn more about the Bible.'"

[Kevin H]

Too late to edit the above, but I wanted to add that even the anti-investigative judgment people tend to be fair to the evidence that was known back in the 1500s. The problem is that they want to stay there.

[John317]

...I'm saying that there may be new evidence that I had not been aware of prior, new discoveries in the language and how to translate the words and cultural applications of the words and that it might be wise to look at this evidence.

Couldn't the same be said of the Bible's teaching regarding the Sabbath, the second coming, and a host of other topics?

Can you please show how your statement affects the Bible's message in 2 Peter 2: 6-8:

Quote:

if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; [7] and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked [8] (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard)

[Kevin H]

Hi John: Yes indeed. However God does not hold us accountable for what we don't yet know but to be fair to what we do know and to have a teachable spirit, and why Mrs. White encourages us to continue to study. However the growing evidence has been more positive towards the Sabbath.

Now I'm worried that you might twist my words to say "so how can we trust the Bible" or something like that. The issue is NOT with what the Bible says, but what we are reading into those words, whether it brings us closer to the actual meaning of the prophet or not.

Second, please, once again can you give time for the people writing the book to finish it and publish it then we can both look at what they are saying the Bible teaches and see if this is indeed new evidence or not. And please don't corner me into making a stand until I get a chance to really look at the evidence. For now I only know that it exists and that it comes from a direction that I've found credible in the past.

But even though I have yet to look at that evidence, as for your text is 1 Peter, we need to remember that Sodom and Gamorah brought in a lot of sexual perversions into their worship. Can you imagine going to church and just having an orgie having sex with all the women, men, children and animals and any other sexual mixing you can come up with such as mixing different textiles in your clothing as a sexual perversion believing that you all needed to unite to help god gain victory over evil and death so that your children can have a good life and not starve to death in a famine? They also believed that if you rapped a man that you were stealing his life force. That food that would have grown in his garden will now grow in yours. That lambs that would have been born from his sheep and goats will now be born by your sheep and goats. That children his wife would have had will now be born to you and your wife...

Is that what you were facing when you were younger? Back when you were struggling with this issue would you not have been appaled by the above as well?