Biblical Evidence for the Investigative Judgment

[Kevin H]

Nic: There are liberal scholars who do not believe in taking the Bible literally, do not believe in prophecy etc. so they do not see it applying to their lives, but say that if they were to believe in taking the Bible litteraly that they would have to accept our Investigative Judgment. And there are other churches which are trying to develope a theology of Judgment and they are studying and open to the possibiity of the Investigative Judgment.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

The book of Hebrews plainly reveals the existence of a heavenly sanctuary described as "the TRUE tabernacle"(Heb.8:1-5). Moses was shown a pattern by God by which he constructed the first mobile sanctuary (Ex.25:40)and David was also shown (I Chron.28:11,12,19)when he made plans for the sanctuary that Solomon built.

Try reading chapter 8 of Daniel and tell me whether there is any reference to the heavenly temple in it! The context deals with what was taking and would be taking place on the earth.

All non-Adventist scholars have always understood that the vision deals with what was and would be taking place on earth.

We do share with other Christians many doctrinal truths; we even share the Sabbath truth with other denominations. Why is it that no other Christian denomination has fallen for the IJ and our convoluted interpretaion of th 2300 days prophecy?

The Little Horn reaches up to attack the "stars and host of heaven", casting the "place" of His sanctuary to the ground. The "pagan" phase attacked the earthly sanctuary, but Pagan Rome transferred to Spiritual Rome. Thus, the sanctuary juxtaposed to it must be also a spiritual sanctuary. Literal Rome attacks a Literal Sanctuary, but as soon as it switches to a vertical position, it's Spiritual Rome attacking a Spiritual Sanctuary.

The attack is directed upon the "Prince of princes".

• And it is this continual service of Christ, the true High Priest, "who continueth ever," and "who is consecrated forevermore" in "an unchangeable priesthood"--it is this continual service of our great High Priest, which the man of sin, the Papacy, has taken away. It is the sanctuary and the true tabernacle in which this true High Priest exercises His continual ministry that has been cast down by "the transgression of desolation." It is this ministry and this sanctuary that the "man of sin" has taken away from the church and shut away from the world and has cast down to the ground and stamped upon and in place of which it has set up itself "the abomination that maketh desolate." What the former Rome did physically to the visible or earthly sanctuary, which was "the figure of the true" (Dan. 9:26, 27; Matt. 24:15), that the latter Rome has done spiritually to the invisible or heavenly sanctuary that is in itself the true." Dan. 11:31; 12:11; 8:11, 13. (A.T. Jones, The Consecrated Way, p. 52)

Now that is some TRUE spiritual insight! The spiritual sanctuary on earth mirrors and reflects the literal sanctuary in heaven.

The Jewish Nation (literal kingdom) mirrored the Literal Sanctuary on Earth.

The Church (spiritual kingdom) mirrors the literal, yet invisible Sanctuary in Heaven.

The Literal Jewish Nation with the Earthly Jewish Sanctuary was a type of the Spiritual Church with the Heavenly Sanctuary.

Old Testament Types vs. New Testament Antitypes.

There was a literal attack of the literal and physical sanctuary on earth.

There is a spiritual attack on the sanctuary in heaven. :)

[Lysimachus]

I hear the following is a good book on the Sanctuary and the Judgment:

The Day of Atonement and the Heavenly Judgment

From the Pentateuch to Revelation (720 pages) - by Dr. Alberto R. Treiyer

I wonder if people who are really critical of the Investigative Judgment, have even bothered to carefully examine scholarly books like this? eh?

....and....more books by Treiyer on the sanctuary and judgment:

http://www.adventistdistinctivemessages.com/English/books.html

SD, miz3, Nic, tall73, Samie, Dr. Rich, cheddar, you would do well to look into these books.

[miz3]

I hear the following is a good book on the Sanctuary and the Judgment:

The Day of Atonement and the Heavenly Judgment

From the Pentateuch to Revelation (720 pages) - by Dr. Alberto R. Treiyer

I wonder if people who are really critical of the Investigative Judgment, have even bothered to carefully examine scholarly books like this? eh?

....and....more books by Treiyer on the sanctuary and judgment:

http://www.adventistdistinctivemessages.com/English/books.html

SD, miz3, Nic, tall73, Samie, Dr. Rich, cheddar, you would do well to look into these books.

Don't need to, because the Bible and the Bible only is clear enough that their is no Investigative Judgment. There is nothing in the Bible and the Bible only either implicit and/or explicit that even comes far, let alone close, to any Investigative Judgment.

No year/day--------no Investigative Judgment/Sanctuary/1844. It is that simple.

You just spinning your wheels.

[Kevin H]

I hear the following is a good book on the Sanctuary and the Judgment:

The Day of Atonement and the Heavenly Judgment

From the Pentateuch to Revelation (720 pages) - by Dr. Alberto R. Treiyer

I wonder if people who are really critical of the Investigative Judgment, have even bothered to carefully examine scholarly books like this? eh?

....and....more books by Treiyer on the sanctuary and judgment:

http://www.adventistdistinctivemessages.com/English/books.html

SD, miz3, Nic, tall73, Samie, Dr. Rich, cheddar, you would do well to look into these books.

I doubt it, they tend to just spend their time criticizing us who believe in it and excuses as to not to read any of these studies. I wish that people would read in the original Sanctuary and the Atonement "The Mighty Opposits: The Atonement in the Writings of Ellen G. White" parts 1 and 2 and "We Must All Appear: The Investigative Judgment in the writings of Ellen G. White" ...

[Lysimachus]

I doubt it, they tend to just spend their time criticizing us who believe in it and excuses as to not to read any of these studies. I wish that people would read in the original Sanctuary and the Atonement "The Mighty Opposits: The Atonement in the Writings of Ellen G. White" parts 1 and 2 and "We Must All Appear: The Investigative Judgment in the writings of Ellen G. White" ...

Well said Kevin.

You know, I sure wish it were that simple, to tell them to read the writings on the Investigative Judgment from Ellen White. But they always come back with either of 2 famous arguments: 1. "But she's not a true prophet!" or 2. "Well, you see, Ellen White didn't have all the light!"

What they fail to understand is that while Ellen White didn't have "all the light", the light she did receive was not false. Whatever light is revealed is added and given in addition to the old light, but never eclipses the old light, and NEVER replaces it.

So then we hope to convert the IJ critics, this time not using ANY EGW, but the Bible alone. But they still aren't convinced. They claim we don't understand the texts.

So then we resort to theologians and scholars and expositors, both new and old, to solidify these interpretations of Holy Writ--but then they point finger at the scholars and say "you're using human reasoning, not the Bible!"--so no matter what you do, you can't win with them.

>.<

Many of these great books are what prove the IJ doctrine from the Bible and the Bible alone.

Sister White made it very clear that many of us do not realize just how firm our foundations are. She predicted that all the assailments against this doctrine WILL NOT SUCCEED!

That is comforting! :D

[Lysimachus]

I doubt it, they tend to just spend their time criticizing us who believe in it and excuses as to not to read any of these studies. I wish that people would read in the original Sanctuary and the Atonement "The Mighty Opposits: The Atonement in the Writings of Ellen G. White" parts 1 and 2 and "We Must All Appear: The Investigative Judgment in the writings of Ellen G. White" ...

Wait, I just looked over what you wrote, and realized that you were citing a chapter "about" the writings of Ellen White. Which book is this? By who?

[miz3]

Lysimachus, you claim that Ellen White is consistent with the Bible.

Then why don't you tell me why does Ellen White contradict the Bible when Ellen White makes her statement in Early Writings page 276?

[Lysimachus]

Lysimachus, you claim that Ellen White is consistent with the Bible.

Then why don't you tell me why does Ellen White contradict the Bible when Ellen White makes her statement in Early Writings page 276?

What is it that Ellen White says on page 276 that contradicts the Bible, and what verses in the Bible do you claim she contradicts?

[Kevin H]

The book is by the Biblical Research Committee, 1981. Even though those chapters are about Mrs. White's view, it is very Biblical focused and can clearify where we are coming from.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Lysimachus, you claim that Ellen White is consistent with the Bible.

Then why don't you tell me why does Ellen White contradict the Bible when Ellen White makes her statement in Early Writings page 276?

What is it that Ellen White says on page 276 that contradicts the Bible, and what verses in the Bible do you claim she contradicts?

ELLEN WHITE’S CONTRADICTION OF THE BIBLE

Well Lysimachus here is a blatant instance where Ellen White contradicted the Bible.

"God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes.... He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been,...." (Early Writings, p.276)

This statement is in direct contradiction to the Words of the Bible and the Bible only.

John chapter one which says that Jesus Christ is the "light that lights" every human and by itself makes Ellen White's words above wrong and in contradiction.

The Bible in addition says that "nothing is impossible" with God. And those texts in context were talking about Salvation and who could and could not be saved.

So the Bible and Ellen White are in contradiction to each other in this case.

Even the degradation of slavery cannot keep God from saving such poor sinners and some will be in the Kingdom of Heaven according to the Bible Principles that God can and does do the impossible.

So God can save babies, even babies, who die in the womb. Nothing is impossible with God.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Even a quick concordance scan of the word pollute will demonstrate where the real culpability of pollution historically lay.Jesus,long after the events of the Grecian occupation referred to the fulfillment of the "abomination in the holy place" as a future event (Matt.24:13-16)which would even preclude the Roman destruction of Herod's temple as the final fulfillment of Daniel's vision.

Jesus referred to the abomination in the holy place as a future event simply because the presence of Israel's enemies was a recurrent event from the time of Daniel the prophet. Following the destruction of the city of Jerusalem, Israel's enemies did continue the abominable presence in the Holy Land. This came to an end with the victory of Israel over the Arabs.

If you use the natural point given by the context, the battle of Granicus in 334 BC between Alexander the Great and Medo-Persia, you arrive at 1967. This computation requires no gimmicks and it does justice to the context. There is no logical reason for us to ignore the explanation which the angel gave to Daniel.

Your take doesn't make any prophetic sense. You define the "Holy Place" as all the land of Israel which the Romans had occupied for decades before Jesus uttered His prediction and never left even after the destruction of Jerusalem. If the believers were to be focused on the abomination as you have described it Jesus words would have been meaningless. The abomination could have occurred during His lifetime or before.

[BobRyan]

Well Lysimachus here is a blatant instance where Ellen White contradicted the Bible.

"God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes.... He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been,...." (Early Writings, p.276)

This statement is in direct contradiction to the Words of the Bible and the Bible only.

[miz3]

Bob Ryan Ellen White made a clear statement. The Bible makes equally clear statements concerning the same subject.

Concerning this subject which is clearly marked for you to understand, Ellen White and the Bible and the Bible only are in direct contradiction.

Just answer the contradiction or admit that Ellen White is in contradiction to the Bible and the Bible only.

* * *

[Nic Samojluk]

Dr. Rich wrote:

“Nic, you are free to believe what you want as do millions (many) today. But I prefer to follow only the testimony (words) of Jesus because I know that I will not be led astray by Him. So Nic, since we are on the issue of Daniel's prophecy, please tell me what you believe is the 'stone cut out w/o hands' as found in Dan. 2 and 7 and 8? And tell me why Jesus said what He did in Matt. 21:43? In my opinion, either Jesus told the truth as it verified Dan. 2's prophecy and Dan. 9:24, Matthew 25:1-13 and Rev. 3 and Dan. 8:14, or Paul and you are correct as the defunct prophesies in Ez..”

You are assuming that God took the kingdom from the Jews on a permanent basis. You are forgetting what Ellen White said about God’s warnings and promises. She stated that they are conditional and subject to human response. This is evident from God’s attitude towards both individuals and towards nations. Bear in mind how patient the Lord was during long centuries with Israel in spite of their many instances of rebellion. Whenever they repented of their rebellion the Lord forgave them their sins.

For two thousand years the Jews suffered persecution and desolation and this climaxed with the German genocide. In spite of their terrible suffering and injustice, they prayed to God for mercy, and the Lord opened a door for their return to the land of promise. You believe that this has nothing to do with their repentance and God’s willingness to forgive even those who killed God’s Only Son. Did not Jesus himself ask God to forgive his tormentors?

Do you think that God did not hear Jesus prayers for his enemies’? Remember the experience of King Ahab. He was evil, yet when he repented, God told his prophet that God had noticed this. I am amazed that you are ignoring what Paul predicted in relation to the future of the Jews. He said that they would be grafted in again. You also reject the prediction of a major prophet—Ezekiel 37. I do not reject those predictions which agree with God’s forgiving character.

“Paul, like EGW either have to be 100% true or false.”

I don’t buy your unbiblical theory. Jonah did make a prediction which turned out to be false, but he was not a false prophet. In this, I believe that Ellen White was right. God’s promises and threatenings are conditional and subject to human response.

“I have shown Paul's words to contradict the words of Jesus and the prophesies in Daniel.”

I haven’t read everything you have written in the past, and I am not going to spend an extraordinary amount of time looking for said posting. If you want to repost your argument I will consider it and respond.

“And God will not allow anyone to go to heaven believing in a single lie, which blows the lid of what John317 believes. (Rev. 21:8 and 22:15)”

I don’t buy your theology here! There will be in heaven some individuals, according to the Bible, who will be asking Jesus about the marks on his hands. This means that they had not heard the story of Jesus and his death. It also means that their lack of proper information and belief in error will not keep them out of heaven.

Ignorance is not synonym with rebellion.

[Nic Samojluk]

This is one of my favorite statements:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White

Chapter 239 - Study the Subject of the Sanctuary

And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Daniel 8:14. {Mar 247.1}

We should be earnest students of prophecy; we should not rest until we become intelligent in regard to the subject of the sanctuary, which is brought out in the visions of Daniel and John. This subject sheds great light on our present position and work, and gives us unmistakable proof that God has led us in our past experience. It explains our disappointment in 1844, showing us that the sanctuary to be cleansed was not the earth, as we had supposed, but that Christ then entered into the most holy apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, and is there performing the closing work of His priestly office, in fulfillment of the words of the angel to the prophet Daniel. {Mar 247.2}

The 2300 days had been found to begin when the commandment of Artaxerxes for the restoration and building of Jerusalem, went into effect, in the autumn of 457 B.C. Taking this as the starting point, there was perfect harmony in the application of all the events foretold in the explanation of that period in Daniel 9:25-27. . . . The seventy weeks, or 490 years, were to pertain especially to the Jews. At the expiration of this period, the nation sealed its rejection of Christ by the persecution of His disciples, and the apostles turned to the Gentiles, A.D. 34. The first 490 years of the 2300 having then ended, 1810 years would remain. From A.D. 34, 1810 years extend to 1844. "Then," said the angel, "shall the sanctuary be cleansed." {Mar 247.3}

Our faith in reference to the messages of the first, second, and third angels was correct. The great waymarks we have passed are immovable. Although the hosts of hell may try to tear them from their foundation, and triumph in the thought that they have succeeded, yet they do not succeed. These pillars of truth stand firm as the eternal hills, unmoved by all the efforts of men combined with those of Satan and his host. We can learn much, and should be constantly searching the Scriptures to see if these things are so. {Mar 247.4}

Maranatha - Chapter 239 - page 247

Just WOWW!!

This is such reassurance, that no matter HOW HARD the critics try to attack our Sanctuary Doctrine, the Investigative Judgment, and 1844 as the terminus of the 2300 days, THEY WILL NOT SUCCEED!

Their attempts are based on DELUSIONAL interpretations of scripture. Not a plain thus-saith the Lord.

They THINK they know what those verses are talking about, but they do not.

And to think that it is the HOSTS of HELL and Satan that are on the side of those trying to attack this Sanctuary Doctrine? Just wow.

They will "triumph in the thought" that they have succeeded, but they have NOT succeeded. They are deceived. But they "think" they know what they are talking about. But they choose to remain in their prideful ignorance.

I have a question for you: When did Ellen's quote become inspired, before or after whe borrowed it from other sourcess? You are placing her writinga babove Scripture. Are you not?

[Lysimachus]

ELLEN WHITE’S CONTRADICTION OF THE BIBLE

Well Lysimachus here is a blatant instance where Ellen White contradicted the Bible.

"God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes.... He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been,...." (Early Writings, p.276)

This statement is in direct contradiction to the Words of the Bible and the Bible only.

John chapter one which says that Jesus Christ is the "light that lights" every human and by itself makes Ellen White's words above wrong and in contradiction.

The Bible in addition says that "nothing is impossible" with God. And those texts in context were talking about Salvation and who could and could not be saved.

So the Bible and Ellen White are in contradiction to each other in this case.

Even the degradation of slavery cannot keep God from saving such poor sinners and some will be in the Kingdom of Heaven according to the Bible Principles that God can and does do the impossible.

So God can save babies, even babies, who die in the womb. Nothing is impossible with God.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

I like this translation. It fits very well with John Newton’s interpretation of Daniel 8 with a terminus for the 2300 prophetical days in 1967 with the signal victory of Israel over the Arabs. This is the simplest and clearest explanation of said prophecy. The starting point is given by what the angel indicated: the battle between Alexander the Great against the army of Medo-Pesia at Granicus in 334 BC.

The beginning of said period is given in chapter 8; there is no need of jumping through all Scripture to elucidate the meaning, and no need for esoteric arguments. Our Adventist movement was important, but so was the Luther’s protestant movement, which was probably more significant than what we Adventists have done. We need to be lses self centerd!

I am very uncomfortable with this post Nic. the evidence points to the time prophecies started on the day of atonement 457 BC. The 69 weeks ended and the 70th week started when Jesus was baptized, and Jesus was cut off in the middle of the week. Of course Jesus could have died differently had had he been accepted, and Ezekiel's application of the 2300 would have been applied. (The 70 weeks of years were automatically day-year application, the 2300 was 2300 cycles meaning that it could be days, half years or whole years).

Thus the longest cycle would have been 2300 years and we find in the mid 1800s a dramatic change occured in the religious world. The split between liberal and conservative churches, the rise of evolution and God raising up people keeping the cultic ritual to point to creation, the rediscovery of the ancient world with Robinson rediscovering Biblical Geography and the deveopment of Biblical Archaeology making the Bible come alive as never before.

Try reading chapter 8 in its own context and without ignoring the explanation given by the angel instead of jumping elsewhere in order to find the starting point for the 2300 days prophetic period.

If our traditional Adventist interpretation is correct, then please tell me why would God take the trouble to deal with the military encounter between Alexander the Great and his enemies? This took place at Granicus in 334 BC. Why ignoring this precise detail?

[Lysimachus]

I have a question for you: When did Ellen's quote become inspired, before or after whe borrowed it from other sourcess? You are placing her writinga babove Scripture. Are you not?

I am not placing Ellen White's writings above scripture. Ellen White is confirming what the scripture already says about the Investigative Judgment. While it is true that we must prove all things from scriptures, we must also be careful Nic not to put faith in our own private interpretations if the brethren of like-faith cannot agree with us. Prophecy is of no private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20). May we be thankful for the Spirit of Prophecy, otherwise, you can be sure that had there been no Spirit of Prophecy manifested through the ministry of Ellen White, the amount of interpretations of Daniel 8 would be far more abundant than they are today! Every denomination has a different interpertation of these texts, and all claim they are going "by the Bible". This proves that we need the Spirit of Prophecy to help keep us on track, so we are not walking around aimlessly and blind. The Spirit of Prophecy gives us a "sense of direction" in our study of the scriptures. It is what helps to keep God's church (his people, from all walks of life) together from falling apart to pieces.

[Lysimachus]

Typo:

I said:

"The so called "contradictions" that you see between Ellen White and her ownself in other writings and the Bible is no different than the so called "contradictions" between Ellen White and the Bible."

I meant:

"The so called "contradictions that you see between Ellen White and her ownself in other writings and the Bible is no different than the so called "contradictions" within the Bible itself."

NOTE: Moderators: It would be more convenient if you would 1. Extend the amount of time given to edit posts--too often the time runs out before I'm able to fix the post the way I want it, and 2. Extend the amount of edits we can make. I can never seem to get my posts the way I want them because the time runs out too fast. Please try extending the time. Almost all other forums allow us to edit the posts much longer. Give us like 1 hour. ChristianForums.com gives us endless time to edit them.

[Lysimachus]

Try reading chapter 8 in its own context and without ignoring the explanation given by the angel instead of jumping elsewhere in order to find the starting point for the 2300 days prophetic period.

If our traditional Adventist interpretation is correct, then please tell me why would God take the trouble to deal with the military encounter between Alexander the Great and his enemies? This took place at Granicus in 334 BC. Why ignoring this precise detail?

While the battle of Granicus is "included" in the prophecy, that is not the central focus.

The focus is in this order:

1. The existence of the Ram.

2. The conquest of the Ram

3. The defeat of the Ram and conquest of the Goat -- notice that the Ram is defeated in the first smiting. The Battle of Guagamela is what settled the score, not Granicus.

4. The sanctuary, and the length of time encompassing the entire vision.

As I have already demonstrated, the beginning of the vision does not begin with the conquest of the Ram. It begins with the Ram's existence. Not with the Ram's defeat.

Thus, the 2300 days cannot commence at the battle of Granicus, but before.

457 B.C. is in perfect alignment with this paradigm.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

ELLEN WHITE’S CONTRADICTION OF THE BIBLE

Well Lysimachus here is a blatant instance where Ellen White contradicted the Bible.

"God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes.... He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been,...." (Early Writings, p.276)

This statement is in direct contradiction to the Words of the Bible and the Bible only.

John chapter one which says that Jesus Christ is the "light that lights" every human and by itself makes Ellen White's words above wrong and in contradiction.

The Bible in addition says that "nothing is impossible" with God. And those texts in context were talking about Salvation and who could and could not be saved.

So the Bible and Ellen White are in contradiction to each other in this case.

Even the degradation of slavery cannot keep God from saving such poor sinners and some will be in the Kingdom of Heaven according to the Bible Principles that God can and does do the impossible.

So God can save babies, even babies, who die in the womb. Nothing is impossible with God.

Answered:

http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/contradictions.html#33

Miz3, these so called "contradictions" have been refuted long ago. ... Why continue to defend the indefensible?

* * *

[To] get a deeper understanding of what Ellen White really thought concerning salvation to "every human":

Originally Posted By: Ellen White

Wherever there is an impulse of love and sympathy, wherever the heart reaches out to bless and uplift others, there is revealed the working of God's Holy Spirit. In the depths of heathenism, men who have had no knowledge of the written law of God, who have never even heard the name of Christ, have been kind to His servants, protecting them at the risk of their own lives. Their acts show the working of a divine power. The Holy Spirit has implanted the grace of Christ in the heart of the savage, quickening his sympathies contrary to his nature, contrary to his education. The "Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (John 1:9), is shining in his soul; and this light, if heeded, will guide his feet to the kingdom of God. {YRP 157.3}

The glory of heaven is in lifting up the fallen, comforting the distressed. And wherever Christ abides in human hearts, He will be revealed in the same way. Wherever it acts, the religion of Christ will bless. Wherever it works, there is brightness. {YRP 157.4}

No distinction on account of nationality, race, or caste, is recognized by God. He is the Maker of all mankind. All men are of one family by creation, and all are one through redemption.--Christ's Object Lessons, pp. 384-386. {YRP 157.5}

Were you aware of this statement miz3? ... At any rate, this statement right here proves that you cannot read into Ellen White's statement about the slave what you wish to read into it. She cannot mean what you think she means, just like Paul cannot mean that it is okay to commit adultery and steal in his statements that we are not justified by works, yet James says the opposite.

The so called "contradictions" that you see between Ellen White and her ownself in other writings and the Bible is no different than the so called "contradictions" within the Bible itself. There "seems" to be a contradiction, but with humility and prayer, the Lord will help you harmonize them when understood in their proper context and proper perspective.

[That is using] only tortured logic to answer. [i see] no Biblical answer.

The FACTS are that the Light of God penetrates ALL HUMANS, no exceptions. The Bible never ever says it "penetrates all humans except......". The Bible makes no exceptions. Ellen White is making an exception. Where in the Bible and the Bible only is this exception? The answer is no where.

[it is] just making up human excuses based on human surmising. It is embarrassing to see such flimsy excuse making.

In addition, Matthew chapter 19, Mark chapter 10, Luke chapter one, and Luke chapter 18 all say nothing is impossible with God in the Salvation of humans.

Yet here is Ellen White saying that it is "impossible" for God to save some slaves.

[One] cannot get around it [without using] human linguistic tricks and tortured human logic. Ellen White contradicts the Bible.

It is not impossible for God to SAVE ALL THE SLAVES.

The lengths of obfuscation that some are willing to go is enormous. It does not bother them to know that they are being dishonest when they try and squirm their tortured human explanations to defend Ellen White even when it is most obvious that Ellen White contradicted the Bible.

It is a clear contradiction. It is NOT "seeming contradiction".

* * *

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

I have a question for you: When did Ellen's quote become inspired, before or after whe borrowed it from other sourcess? You are placing her writinga babove Scripture. Are you not?

I am not placing Ellen White's writings above scripture. Ellen White is confirming what the scripture already says about the Investigative Judgment. While it is true that we must prove all things from scriptures, we must also be careful Nic not to put faith in our own private interpretations if the brethren of like-faith cannot agree with us. Prophecy is of no private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20). May we be thankful for the Spirit of Prophecy, otherwise, you can be sure that had there been no Spirit of Prophecy manifested through the ministry of Ellen White, the amount of interpretations of Daniel 8 would be far more abundant than they are today! Every denomination has a different interpertation of these texts, and all claim they are going "by the Bible". This proves that we need the Spirit of Prophecy to help keep us on track, so we are not walking around aimlessly and blind. The Spirit of Prophecy gives us a "sense of direction" in our study of the scriptures. It is what helps to keep God's church (his people, from all walks of life) together from falling apart to pieces.

I see that you believe that Ellen White has replaced the Holy Spirit as the One giving direction, interpretation, guidance, etc. You also believe the "brethren" have also replaced the Holy Spirit as the One to confirm our Faith, our Truth, our interpretation, etc. When did the "spirit of prophecy" (Ellen White) replace the Holy Spirit in keeping God's Church "together and from falling apart to pieces"?

When did this replacement take place? Was it in 1844?

It is amazing how the SDA Church .org and some of its faithful are willing to ELEVATE Ellen White above the Bible, above the Holy Spirit. Next we will learn that Ellen White is even elevated above Jesus Christ and God the Father. Yes, preserve Ellen White at all costs. Nothing must ever disturb the "sacredness of Ellen White and Ellen White writings and sayings".

[Lysimachus]

[That is using] only tortured logic to answer. [i see] no Biblical answer.

The FACTS are that the Light of God penetrates ALL HUMANS, no exceptions. The Bible never ever says it "penetrates all humans except......". The Bible makes no exceptions. Ellen White is making an exception. Where in the Bible and the Bible only is this exception? The answer is no where.

[miz3]

Lysimachus, you know that Ellen White is saying in Early Writings that some slaves are not capable of making a decision. This is contrary to the Bible and the texts that I cited.

* * *

How come Ellen White says that some slaves who Ellen White believes "have not the mental capacity" to be saved and/or lost? That means Ellen White says that these incapacitated ones (slaves) cannot be 'REACHED BY GOD' (A contradiction of John chapter one and those texts I cited that nothing is impossible with God).

God can and does reach these "incapacitated ones" because the Bible says so. Ellen White contradicts the Bible and says God cannot reach such "incapacitated ones".

As you pointed out Ellen White also contradicts her own other statements as well. She contradicted herself when she wrote Early Writings page 276 concerning the "incapacitated slaves".

God in His Word says that no how incapacitated a human is God's Light still reaches that person in some understandable form and that it is not impossible for God to save such incapacitated ones. Ellen White in Early Writings page 276 says different from her other writings and the Bible.

* * *

Face the True FACTS, Ellen White contradicted the Bible...