Biblical Evidence for the Investigative Judgment

[John317]

Marcos, what do you do with what God said in Dan, 12:10? How could EGW correctly understand end time events when she is not here living in the last generation?

Who is living in the last generation? Are you?

How do you know?

The truth is that Daniel 12: 10 doesn't signify that only the last generation will understand the prophecies of Daniel. The "time of the end" does not refer to the last generation but to those living within a certain time frame in relation to Christ's return. If Christ were to come back in 50 years, 1844 would still be considered near the time of Christ's return, especially when we take into account the fact that it's been about 2000 years since Christ's first coming. What is 160 or 180 years in comparison with almost 2000 years?

But this brings up the question, what does the Bible mean by "the time of the end"?

When Christ says "behold I come quickly," or "soon," it should be obvious that "quickly" and "soon" do not mean the same to God that they mean to humans.

[John317]

Indeed, most truths in the Bible are NOT found in the Ten Commandments.

[Dr. Rich]

John, please notice to WHO Jesus wants to know and understand the book of Revelation. That's a clue just as there are many clues that only that small little group will understand. What does it mean to have that special "insight" as found in Dan. 12? Jesus told His disciples 'to you it is to be made known, but to them it is not' for a real reason. Therefore, if you are NOT in that 'insight' or 'wise' group you will not understand AND you just might be one of the wicked.

[John317]

When do you believe the Bible indicates the time prophecies of Daniel were unsealed? When did God intend for people to begin understanding those prophecies?

[John317]

.... please notice to WHO Jesus wants to know and understand the book of Revelation. That's a clue just as there are many clues that only that small little group will understand.

Of course the Apocalypse was never sealed. It has been a revelation of Christ since John wrote it. God wanted Christians of all ages to understand it. This is made plain by the fact that around the year 100 AD, Jesus Himself said in the first part of Revelation, "Blessed is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near."

When it comes to the book of Daniel, the Holy Spirit inspired Matthew to write, "Whoever reads [the prophet Daniel], let him understand." Naturally, though, since all truth is revealed progressively as people are ready to understand it and apply it, believers will understand both Daniel and Revelation more and more as the Holy Spirit leads us and as we draw closer to the time when Christ returns.

[doug yowell]

I have no idea what you're talking about,SD. Jesus is the Most Holy Place?? Miz says that the Father is the Holiest place so maybe the two of you can work this thing out.

[doug yowell]

My friend Doug Y. the burden of proof is on you to show that your position is Biblical.

That you have not done.

Yet, you have merely asserted that my Biblical position is unBiblical without offering any Biblically based evidence that, in fact, the unBiblical position that I claim is Biblical is Biblically unBiblical. Biblically (and logically)it is unBiblical to offer any opinion that is not Biblically evidenced whether it is asserting that the Biblical assertion is unBiblical or that what is asserted to be unBiblical is really Biblical. I've offered the Biblical examples taken from the Divinely ordered principles of justice and judgment. What in the Bible contradicts that?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

My friend Doug Y. the burden of proof is on you to show that your position is Biblical.

That you have not done.

Yet, you have merely asserted that my Biblical position is unBiblical without offering any Biblically based evidence that, in fact, the unBiblical position that I claim is Biblical is Biblically unBiblical. Biblically (and logically)it is unBiblical to offer any opinion that is not Biblically evidenced whether it is asserting that the Biblical assertion is unBiblical or that what is asserted to be unBiblical is really Biblical. I've offered the Biblical examples taken from the Divinely ordered principles of justice and judgment. What in the Bible contradicts that?

UnBiblical means that the IJ is not found in the Bible. Its that simple.

The IJ is not there until you prove that it is there. Again, its that simple.

No need to get complex about it.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Kevin, I am a full time 'student' and I have seldom wanted anyone to answer a question as to what EGW, or for that matter, ANYONE other than what Jesus said or taught. It makes no difference to me who wrote what IF it did not come from Jesus. why? because they are just opinions and those are a dime a dozen.

Would that mean you would also deny this, Dr Rich.

"...knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.2 Peter 1:20-21 NKJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

UnBiblical means that the IJ is not found in the Bible. Its that simple.

The IJ is not there until you prove that it is there. Again, its that simple.

No need to get complex about it.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

"saying, ‘Go to this people and say: “Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; And seeing you will see, and not perceive..."Acts 28:26 NKJV

"Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains."John 9:41 NKJV

God blesses!

[phkrause]

Just WOWW!!

This is such reassurance, that no matter HOW HARD the critics try to attack our Sanctuary Doctrine, the Investigative Judgment, and 1844 as the terminus of the 2300 days, THEY WILL NOT SUCCEED!

Their attempts are based on DELUSIONAL interpretations of scripture. Not a plain thus-saith the Lord.

They THINK they know what those verses are talking about, but they do not.

And to think that it is the HOSTS of HELL and Satan that are on the side of those trying to attack this Sanctuary Doctrine? Just wow.

They will "triumph in the thought" that they have succeeded, but they have NOT succeeded. They are deceived. But they "think" they know what they are talking about. But they choose to remain in their prideful ignorance.

[Nic Samojluk]

skyblue888 wrote:

“The majority of the Jews were lacking in their understanding of the 70 week prophecy which pointed to the coming of a suffering Messiah who would be "cut off". They expected a totally different Messiah. In fact they expected that the Messiah would lead the Jews to defeat the Romans and that He would establish a temporal kingdom on earth and that they would rule the whole world with Him. Those who persisted in studying the 70 week prophecy showing a suffering Messiah, the anathema was pronounced upon them.”

The Jews were not totally wrong! Ellen White told us that if the Jewish leaders had accepted Jesus as their promised Messiah, Jesus would have sat on David’s throne and Jerusalem would grow and eventually become the capital of the entire world. This means the Romans would have either conquered or converted.

Bear in mind that the Angel Gabriel promised to Mary, the mother of Jesus, that her Son would sit on David’s throne. This was God’s original plan for the Jewish nation. Jesus would have probably liberated his people as Moses, Samuel, and David had done in the Old Testament.

[Nic Samojluk]

And to add to that, here's the CJBs translation of Daniel 8:14 The first said to me, "Two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings, after which the sanctuary will be restored to its rightful state."

and here's the same verse from the online Tankh, that all Jews go by: 14. And he said to me, "Until evening and morning, two thousand and three hundred, and the holy ones shall be exonerated."

I like this translation. It fits very well with John Newton’s interpretation of Daniel 8 with a terminus for the 2300 prophetical days in 1967 with the signal victory of Israel over the Arabs. This is the simplest and clearest explanation of said prophecy. The starting point is given by what the angel indicated: the battle between Alexander the Great against the army of Medo-Pesia at Granicus in 334 BC.

The beginning of said period is given in chapter 8; there is no need of jumping through all Scripture to elucidate the meaning, and no need for esoteric arguments. Our Adventist movement was important, but so was the Luther’s protestant movement, which was probably more significant than what we Adventists have done. We need to be lses self centerd!

[doug yowell]

UnBiblical means that the IJ is not found in the Bible. Its that simple.

[Kevin H]

The Jews were not totally wrong! Ellen White told us that if the Jewish leaders had accepted Jesus as their promised Messiah, Jesus would have sat on David’s throne and Jerusalem would grow and eventually become the capital of the entire world. This means the Romans would have either conquered or converted.

Bear in mind that the Angel Gabriel promised to Mary, the mother of Jesus, that her Son would sit on David’s throne. This was God’s original plan for the Jewish nation. Jesus would have probably liberated his people as Moses, Samuel, and David had done in the Old Testament.

Amen Nic!!! In study we have to first see what it meant to the original audience, then how are things reapplied to different times in scripture and from this we can see what it means for us, but too often we are focused on what it means and see that as the only meaning. We have a better understanding of what it means by seeing what it meant and how things could have worked out. Deuteronomy 4 honestly predicted that the exile should have been THE LAST DAYS! And the original setting of the 2300 evenings-mornings was the year that included 2300 literal days from the fall of Babylon. (by the way, Daniel 9 re-applys the prophecies to the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Ezekiel 38 - 39 applies the 2300 days to how they would have been fulfilled had Jesus been accepted and sat on David's throne)

[Kevin H]

I like this translation. It fits very well with John Newton’s interpretation of Daniel 8 with a terminus for the 2300 prophetical days in 1967 with the signal victory of Israel over the Arabs. This is the simplest and clearest explanation of said prophecy. The starting point is given by what the angel indicated: the battle between Alexander the Great against the army of Medo-Pesia at Granicus in 334 BC.

The beginning of said period is given in chapter 8; there is no need of jumping through all Scripture to elucidate the meaning, and no need for esoteric arguments. Our Adventist movement was important, but so was the Luther’s protestant movement, which was probably more significant than what we Adventists have done. We need to be lses self centerd!

I am very uncomfortable with this post Nic. the evidence points to the time prophecies started on the day of atonement 457 BC. The 69 weeks ended and the 70th week started when Jesus was baptized, and Jesus was cut off in the middle of the week. Of course Jesus could have died differently had had he been accepted, and Ezekiel's application of the 2300 would have been applied. (The 70 weeks of years were automatically day-year application, the 2300 was 2300 cycles meaning that it could be days, half years or whole years).

Thus the longest cycle would have been 2300 years and we find in the mid 1800s a dramatic change occured in the religious world. The split between liberal and conservative churches, the rise of evolution and God raising up people keeping the cultic ritual to point to creation, the rediscovery of the ancient world with Robinson rediscovering Biblical Geography and the deveopment of Biblical Archaeology making the Bible come alive as never before.

[Lysimachus]

I like this translation. It fits very well with John Newton’s interpretation of Daniel 8 with a terminus for the 2300 prophetical days in 1967 with the signal victory of Israel over the Arabs. This is the simplest and clearest explanation of said prophecy. The starting point is given by what the angel indicated: the battle between Alexander the Great against the army of Medo-Pesia at Granicus in 334 BC.

The beginning of said period is given in chapter 8; there is no need of jumping through all Scripture to elucidate the meaning, and no need for esoteric arguments. Our Adventist movement was important, but so was the Luther’s protestant movement, which was probably more significant than what we Adventists have done. We need to be lses self centerd!

Hi Nic.

This interpretation is wrong.

The starting point is not given by the angel as beginning with the battle between Alexander the Great against the army of the Medo-Persian empire at Granicus in 334 B.C.

• STARTING POINT OF THE VISION:

  8:2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I [was] at Shushan [in] the palace, which [is] in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

  8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

  8:4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great. (Daniel 8:2-4)

Notice that the vision does not start with a battle. It starts with the Ram just "standing" there. In other words, the "vision" (chazon) begins in the "middle" of the Ram's (Medo-Persia's) existence.

But the NEXT scene begins with a battle:

• 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat [had] a notable horn between his eyes.

  8:6 And he came to the ram that had [two] horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

  8:7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. (Daniel 8:5-7)

As we can see, the "vision" already started before any battles took place. So you are wrong in your interpretation. The 2300 days in Daniel 8:14 "encompasses" the time-frame of the "chazon".

Now, when the angel Gabriel responded and said "unto 2300 days", obviously the angel would start the 2300 during the sanctuary's full operation. However, during the 2300 years, there was a shift from the earthly to the heavenly in circa 31 A.D. The sanctuary's operation began long before 334 BC. In fact, it's full function commenced back to 457 B.C.

457 B.C., according to Ezra 7, is when the Temple commenced its full priestly function when the priests and temple servants came up to the temple in the seventh year of the King of Artaxerxes (verse 7), and the king gave the priests and others to go to Jerusalem (verse 13), and the priests and people could bring their freewill offerings for the temple of their God in Jerusalem (verse 16), and with this money they could buy bulls, rams, male lambs, together with their grain offerings and drink offerings, and sacrifice them on the altar of the temple of their God in Jerusalem (verse 17). Verse 19 shows that they could deliver to the God of Jerusalem ALL the articles entrusted to them for worship IN the temple of their God (verse 19), and ANYTHING ELSE needed for the temple of their God that they were responsible to supply, they may provide from the royal treasury (verse 20). Verse 23 gives authorization that whatever God has prescribed, let it be done with diligence for the temple of the God of heaven.

Therefore, when a sanctuary is "cleansed", this cleansing would only be at the end of the prophetic time period given, for which the sanctuary would only be in full operation during this allotted time period.

Conclusion:

The interpretation for the 2300 days commencing at the Battle of Granicus in 334 B.C. does not withstand the test of investigation. The Battle Granicus in 334 B.C. has no connection whatsoever to do with the commencement and operation of the sanctuary.

Thus, we as Adventists do not have to admit that we went wrong that the 2300 days/years ended in 1844. We were right all along! The date was right, but the nature of what took place was wrong.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

I like this translation. It fits very well with John Newton’s interpretation of Daniel 8 with a terminus for the 2300 prophetical days in 1967 with the signal victory of Israel over the Arabs. This is the simplest and clearest explanation of said prophecy. The starting point is given by what the angel indicated: the battle between Alexander the Great against the army of Medo-Pesia at Granicus in 334 BC.

The beginning of said period is given in chapter 8; there is no need of jumping through all Scripture to elucidate the meaning, and no need for esoteric arguments. Our Adventist movement was important, but so was the Luther’s protestant movement, which was probably more significant than what we Adventists have done. We need to be lses self centerd!

I am very uncomfortable with this post Nic. the evidence points to the time prophecies started on the day of atonement 457 BC. The 69 weeks ended and the 70th week started when Jesus was baptized, and Jesus was cut off in the middle of the week. Of course Jesus could have died differently had had he been accepted, and Ezekiel's application of the 2300 would have been applied. (The 70 weeks of years were automatically day-year application, the 2300 was 2300 cycles meaning that it could be days, half years or whole years).

Thus the longest cycle would have been 2300 years and we find in the mid 1800s a dramatic change occured in the religious world. The split between liberal and conservative churches, the rise of evolution and God raising up people keeping the cultic ritual to point to creation, the rediscovery of the ancient world with Robinson rediscovering Biblical Geography and the deveopment of Biblical Archaeology making the Bible come alive as never before.

[BobRyan]

DATE-SETTING is your sin and sickness, beloved Seventh-day Adventists,

REPENT AND TRIUMPH WITH CHRIST!

Less pulpit pounding - more facts please.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

God said that Moses made the earthly tabernacle after the two-appartment pattern provided for him in heaven. The heavenly one is real - it contains both a holy place and a most holy place.

The throne of God was in the Holy place until 1844 - and then as Daniel 7 points out - it moved to the Most Holy Place.

There the investigative judgment of Daniel 7 has been going on to this very day.

The terms - "Holy Place" and "Most Holy Place" are the ones God uses - I did not make them up. Those who are unhappy with God's choice of names - need to take it up with Him.

in Christ,

Bob

[phkrause]

God said that Moses made the earthly tabernacle after the two-appartment pattern provided for him in heaven. The heavenly one is real - it contains both a holy place and a most holy place.

The throne of God was in the Holy place until 1844 - and then as Daniel 7 points out - it moved to the Most Holy Place.

There the investigative judgment of Daniel 7 has been going on to this very day.

The terms - "Holy Place" and "Most Holy Place" are the ones God uses - I did not make them up. Those who are unhappy with God's choice of names - need to take it up with Him.

in Christ,

Bob

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

God said that Moses made the earthly tabernacle after the two-appartment pattern provided for him in heaven. The heavenly one is real - it contains both a holy place and a most holy place.

The throne of God was in the Holy place until 1844 - and then as Daniel 7 points out - it moved to the Most Holy Place.

There the investigative judgment of Daniel 7 has been going on to this very day.

The terms - "Holy Place" and "Most Holy Place" are the ones God uses - I did not make them up. Those who are unhappy with God's choice of names - need to take it up with Him.

in Christ,

Bob

[cheddar]

So what about the feast of trumpets and feast of tabernacles?

If you’re going to say that 1844 is the fulfillment of the day of atonement then you have to show where the other feasts were fulfilled as well.

Paul said that the holy days or feasts are a shadow of things to come.

The spring feasts were all fulfilled within the lifetime of one man – Jesus Christ. The feast of weeks came after at Pentecost so I doubt the fall feasts would be spread out over thousands of years.

I think you will agree that the trumpets of Rev. are the antitype of the feast of trumpets so I want to know how all seven were fulfilled prior to 1844 when the trumpets don’t even begin until the 144K are sealed. (Rev. 7).

Were the 144K sealed before 1844?

So where’s my answer to this post? Bob Ryan took a stab at it but even he didn’t mess with the trumpets.

Adventists are afraid of the trumpets because they know how absurd their historical ideas are concerning them.

I do agree with one thing that Bob Ryan said – that the ‘time of trouble’ is the antitype of the feast of tabernacles. During the time of trouble God’s people will flee into the wilderness and live off the land similar to how the Israelites lived in outdoor booths during the feast.

So here we have a timeline that follows the fall feasts precisely:

The trumpets of Rev. are sounded with one each getting worse and bringing a new judgment upon the earth. The 7th trumpet is sounded signifying the ‘time of the dead, that they should be judged' and the most holy is opened and the Ark of the Covenant is seen.

Jesus goes into the most holy and makes the final atonement (not 150+ years but most likely 70 literal weeks). He comes out, probation closes and the time of trouble begins bringing with it the seven last plagues.

If you can’t prove that the trumpets happened prior to 1844 then the judgment didn’t begin in 1844.

[Nic Samojluk]

The book of Hebrews plainly reveals the existence of a heavenly sanctuary described as "the TRUE tabernacle"(Heb.8:1-5). Moses was shown a pattern by God by which he constructed the first mobile sanctuary (Ex.25:40)and David was also shown (I Chron.28:11,12,19)when he made plans for the sanctuary that Solomon built.

Try reading chapter 8 of Daniel and tell me whether there is any reference to the heavenly temple in it! The context deals with what was taking and would be taking place on the earth.

All non-Adventist scholars have always understood that the vision deals with what was and would be taking place on earth.

We do share with other Christians many doctrinal truths; we even share the Sabbath truth with other denominations. Why is it that no other Christian denomination has fallen for the IJ and our convoluted interpretaion of th 2300 days prophecy?

[Nic Samojluk]

Nonsense. Even a quick concordance scan of the word pollute will demonstrate where the real culpability of pollution historically lay.Jesus,long after the events of the Grecian occupation referred to the fulfillment of the "abomination in the holy place" as a future event (Matt.24:13-16)which would even preclude the Roman destruction of Herod's temple as the final fulfillment of Daniel's vision.

Jesus referred to the abomination in the holy place as a future event simply because the presence of Israel's enemies was a recurrent event from the time of Daniel the prophet. Following the destruction of the city of Jerusalem, Israel's enemies did continue the abominable presence in the Holy Land. This came to an end with the victory of Israel over the Arabs.

If you use the natural point given by the context, the battle of Granicus in 334 BC between Alexander the Great and Medo-Persia, you arrive at 1967. This computation requires no gimmicks and it does justice to the context. There is no logical reason for us to ignore the explanation which the angel gave to Daniel.