Racism? I doubt it.

[CoAspen]

Maybe copying your vagueness in answering my questions?

[Woody]

Well CoA. They did try to the best of their abilities as limited as it might be.

[lazarus]

Why be so vague. Why not just answer the question?

This is how you will learn...grasshopper.

[doug yowell]

I love that shark thing!!

[Kountzer]

Quote:

Good that the arrest was made. Sounds like George turned himself in and cooperated fully.

Yes. And I predicted that the arrest would happen.

But let me point out - that as you said George cooperated. If George was black there would have been protests in the streets about dear George being arrested. Quite the contrast huh?

You're going around and around in circles. It has already been said that if the roles were reversed a black person committing this crime would of been in jail from day one, which is true.

There would be no protests. He would already be in jail, facing a trial and at least a long time in jail, if not death row.

[Kountzer]

Is this topic/discussion(tic) really a good display of Christianity? Are so arrogant that we do not care what other readers may think of us?

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

I love that shark thing!!

[Woody]

Quote:

You're going around and around in circles. It has already been said that if the roles were reversed a black person committing this crime would of been in jail from day one, which is true.

There would be no protests. He would already be in jail, facing a trial and at least a long time in jail, if not death row.

Hmmm. Sounds like a little prejudging going on here.

[Woody]

What we DO know - is that a Hispanic man was following a suspicious person because there had been a series of crimes. This was his job. He was part of the Neighborhood watch. Unlike the hype - he was not really sure if the person was black or not. But when pressed for an answer he indicated he thought the person might be black.

The operator suggested that he did not need to follow the person but instead meet up with the police. Zimmerman then agreed to stop following and do as the operator suggested.

At some point he got ambushed by Martin and was smashed into the pavement. The medical reports show that he has a broken nose and head injury. Zimmerman felt his life in danger which it was and he defended himself.

I do not see a speck of racism in this case. If someone does - where is it?

The only thing racial is that certain black organizations and politicians have called for a lynching.

[Kountzer]

That's not accurate.

[fccool]

Quote:

What we DO know - is that a Hispanic man was following a suspicious person because there had been a series of crimes. This was his job. He was part of the Neighborhood watch. Unlike the hype - he was not really sure if the person was black or not. But when pressed for an answer he indicated he thought the person might be black.

Neighborhood watch members are discouraged to carry weapons. They also discouraged to intervene or make people paranoid. It's not their business to follow people for extended periods of time, and chase them by running.

If someone chased you on the street, and it was apparent that that someone had a gun, I think it would make you a bit paranoid. It's not uncommon for paranoid people to act irrationally.

If you were clearly following me to the point of running after me, then I have every reason to believe that one of the possible determinations is for you to harm me.

I doubt Zimmerman would have followed a white teen in Jeans and T-Shirt. He followed a guy, and he was wrong. The guy was unarmed. He was not "on drugs". He was mislabeled as "suspicious and dangerous" by Zimmerman's prejudice of what is considered "suspicious", and "on drugs".

If you really think that racial prejudice had nothing to do with the situation, you are only kidding yourself.

Quote:

The operator suggested that he did not need to follow the person but instead meet up with the police. Zimmerman then agreed to stop following and do as the operator suggested.

What you have is a testimony of implicated man. We really have no idea what really happened. Did Zimmerman confront him, and told him to move to follow him to the car by flashing the "piece"? You have no idea. The guy who has the other part of the story is dead to tell it.

I think it's a common sense that a person who can have enough coordination to pull out a gun, take down the safety, [censored] it, and shoot it... is not so helpless after all?

Did it cross your mind that perhaps he had the gun ready to go? Perhaps Martin saw that and assumed that attacking the guy is the thing to do in this strange situation?

You only listening to Zimmerman's account, and you assume that that's all there is to know.

Quote:

At some point he got ambushed by Martin and was smashed into the pavement. The medical reports show that he has a broken nose and head injury. Zimmerman felt his life in danger which it was and he defended himself.

Once again, you are assuming. How do you know that it was not Martin that was trying to escape a man with a gun? If you ever been in this situation, you would understand how difficult it would be to remove a concealed weapon (from underneath your clothes), and to perform precision tasks such as removing the safety, cocking and shooting. Especially is the attacker is on top of your waist. Have you ever thought about it? How could he even got that shot off if he was constrained to the point of fearing for his life?

Quote:

I do not see a speck of racism in this case. If someone does - where is it?

Would Zimmerman follow a white guy who is wearing a T-shirt, carrying an umbrella walking around in neighborhood in the rain? Would he see him as suspicious and on drugs.

[Woody]

Martin attempted to grab the concealed weapon from George. George felt his life was in danger - which is was. He then defended himself. (Which according to the law - he was allowed to do)

[Woody]

Quote:

Would Zimmerman follow a white guy who is wearing a T-shirt, carrying an umbrella walking around in neighborhood in the rain? Would he see him as suspicious and on drugs.

Trained eyes can tell a drug user when they see one. And Martin was a drug user and had just been busted. Good observation skills in my book.

[Kountzer]

Zimmerman has a history of violence. He had a Jekyll & Hyde personality, per statements by some who know him. He could be nice, but when he snapped he lost control. He assaulted a police officer, beat up his girlfriend. He over reacted as a bouncer and grabbed a female patron at a bar and threw her against the wall. He stalked Martin, shot him and killed, after he lost his temper. Hopefully all this will come out in the trial.

[Woody]

Quote:

He stalked Martin, shot him and killed

What evidence have you seen that Martin was killed by George? The correct term is that he "allegedly" killed him. I do not believe there were any witnesses. Are you aware of any? Please share with us what you know. Not just tabloid hype.

[Liz]

What evidence have you seen that Martin was killed by George? The correct term is that he "allegedly" killed him. I do not believe there were any witnesses. Are you aware of any? Please share with us what you know. Not just tabloid hype.

George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch captain who admits he shot unarmed Florida teenager Trayvon Martin, was charged with murder today and has been taken into custody. Zimmerman

[Woody]

I'm not sure that he has admited it - but even if he did admit it - it is just alledged that he killed him till the evidence says so.

[fccool]

Quote:

Martin attempted to grab the concealed weapon from George. George felt his life was in danger - which is was. He then defended himself. (Which according to the law - he was allowed to do)

The map simply does not work out with the his story. I think it should be clear, so there's no further misunderstanding. And that's the very reason why the guy is charged with murder of 2nd degree.

I think this should make things a bit more obvious.

Where was Martin going?

He was going to the house in the end of the street marked above. He was not "aimlessly wondering". The community was a gated community and his movement was quite purposeful as you will see further.

Where did Zimmerman made a call from when he was told to stop following Martin?

Zimmerman called the police at point A, at which time he was told to stop following the guy. The incident occurred at point C. As you can see, the idea that Zimmerman was going back to his car simply does not add up. Martin was in fact on his way to his destination. Zimmerman was told to stand down, but he seemed to chased Martin (who was running to the place where he was staying) two apartment blocks from where he was staying. He was not aimlessly wondering, he was in direct path home.

There simply no other explanation other than Zimmerman disregarded the order, and followed him, whether on foot or by car, and some sort of confrontation resulted.

Where was Zimmerman's car? This part remains a mystery to me, but the police was called to the point B. Likewise it would be odd that if his car was located at the place of the incident, that his "return" would neglect seeing the teen right there.

Once again, this is the reason the guy is being charged with murder.

[lazarus]

I'm not sure that he has admited it - but even if he did admit it - it is just alledged that he killed him till the evidence says so.

If he didn't shoot Martin then why would he claim self defense? Next you'll be suggesting that someone else shot the boy.

[Woody]

Quote:

There simply no other explanation other than Zimmerman disregarded the order

There was no order. There was an opinion from some phone operator that it probably was not necessary. This was not an order nor even an opinion of the police department.

And it is clear that Martin did not live in the area - thus he was suspect. George knew that Martin was out of place and had reason to approach him. If Martin was so innocent - all he had to do was explain his reason for being in the community. But no - he had just been busted for drugs - so he had a rough mindset to not cooperate. There were signs to indicate that it was a Neighborhood watch area. So, anyone who entered should expect to see participants.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

I'm not sure that he has admited it - but even if he did admit it - it is just alledged that he killed him till the evidence says so.

If he didn't shoot Martin then why would he claim self defense? Next you'll be suggesting that someone else shot the boy.

Perhaps Laz since you are not a citizen of our country - you might not be aware that a person is innocent till proven guilty in a court of law. Many people have been known to confess for crimes they did not commit. It is up to the courts to determine guilt no matter if there are confessions or not.

[Kountzer]

Quote:

There simply no other explanation other than Zimmerman disregarded the order

There was no order. There was an opinion from some phone operator that it probably was not necessary. This was not an order nor even an opinion of the police department.

And it is clear that Martin did not live in the area - thus he was suspect. George knew that Martin was out of place and had reason to approach him. If Martin was so innocent - all he had to do was explain his reason for being in the community. But no - he had just been busted for drugs - so he had a rough mindset to not cooperate. There were signs to indicate that it was a Neighborhood watch area. So, anyone who entered should expect to see participants.

Martin did not need to explain anything to him. Zimmerman is not a police officer.

[Woody]

Quote:

Martin did not need to explain anything to him. Zimmerman is not a police officer.

I suspect that kind of attitude - lead to his death.

Like I said - the signs were posted that it was a neighborhood watch area. And so people like Martin should expect to be approached.

I've been in these neighborhoods for my work. I've been approached. I've simply stated my purpose and was left alone.

[fccool]

There was no order. There was an opinion from some phone operator that it probably was not necessary. This was not an order nor even an opinion of the police department.

And it is clear that Martin did not live in the area - thus he was suspect. George knew that Martin was out of place and had reason to approach him. If Martin was so innocent - all he had to do was explain his reason for being in the community. But no - he had just been busted for drugs - so he had a rough mindset to not cooperate. There were signs to indicate that it was a Neighborhood watch area. So, anyone who entered should expect to see participants.

That would all be good, but you are missing a couple of things.

1) Zimmerman is not a policeman. He has 0 authority to stop and question anyone, let alone with a gun. That's not what neighborhood watch does. If someone is chasing you, they are not in uniform, and you see that they have a gun, you have every reason to believe that they are up to no good.

If someone asked me where I live, and where I'm going... I have no reason to tell them, and I won't. It's not their job to know.

2) Neighborhood watch people are voluntary organizations that call and report to police potential crimes in the area. Their policy and guidelines would never include following someone to question them, let alone with a gun.

3) Martin's offenses are minor, compared to those of Zimmerman, who actually had outbursts of violence against the police, and had restraining order against him. So, your idea that "people with history of drugs are dangerous" simply does not fly. Would you follow anyone out of the bar, when they are intoxicated and on foot? Does that justify making them paranoid and killing them when they confront and beat the [censored] out of you?

4) You ignoring the story that maps telling. They are not telling the same story that Zimmerman is telling.

Here's what I take away from this situation. Treyvon is a kid. Like any kid he is taught to do something in a strange environment. He is taught not to talk from the strangers, and he is taught to run away from the strangers that are following you. As a kid I was taught that. So, when he sees a strange man following him, he runs. Where does he run? He runs HOME... to the place where he is staying. As he runs, the man is pursuing him. When he sees that he can't outrun the guy, the Treyvon stops and Stands His Ground. Zimmerman reaches for the gun, Treyvon seems it fit to defend himself. Zimmerman shoots him.

Zimmerman then makes up the bogus story of being ambushed while the witnesses only see the part where Treyvon is "defending himself".

So, there are to versions of "self-defense" here that we can look at.

[Woody]

A lot of wild unfounded assumptions.