I don't think I will be an SDA member

[Dr. Rich]

Why not? Baptism is not being born again as many people believe, it is the start of a educational trip truth learning process leading up to sanctification, that being the true born again experance.

Heroin was popular a few hundred years ago and so to was all of the above as you seem to be picking and choosing what you want the bible to say instead of following the words of Jesus. Jesus said it was not what goes into your mouth that defiles you, but what comes out. Therefore what one eats or drinks should not keep one from being baptized.

Marriage is none of the government's business even though they made it that way, and as Jesus presented a picture of love for the woman who was living with a man not her husband at the well, He did not show any condemnation for her and gave her living water. Living water is what the act of baptism clearly represents--as a person then becomes, as a baby, a brand new learner or the truth which lasts his entire life time.

[M. T. Cross]

Right now I don't have any strong feeling/conviction whether to baptize a person who continues to smoke or not. But for the sake of discussion, let me argue the point. Should we baptize current heroin addicts? Current pork eaters? Alcoholics? Someone living with a person not his/her spouse? The list goes on.

I guarantee you have baptized members of the church doing all of those thing and more.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Right now I don't have any strong feeling/conviction whether to baptize a person who continues to smoke or not. But for the sake of discussion, let me argue the point. Should we baptize current heroin addicts? Current pork eaters? Alcoholics? Someone living with a person not his/her spouse? The list goes on.

I guarantee you have baptized members of the church doing all of those thing and more.

I seriously doubt that. As a rule, heroin addicts, and people who are still eating pork, and still drinking, don't line up to be baptized. And it would make no sense to baptize unconverted people into the church. You would only be doing them a disservice by doing that, and a disservice to the church also.

They are still welcome to come to church though. Baptism says publicly that I have given up my old lifestyle and embraced a new one by the grace of God. What message would it send to go ahead and baptize me anyway, knowing that I have not done that?

And my statement that I am making by being baptized, would be nothing but a lie. What a way to start off a new Christian. That would be wrong all the way around, for both the church and the person.

And it has NOTHING to do with the individual preacher. This is the policy of the church, worldwide, and it is Biblical.

Those who would get mad at the preacher, or the church, for not going ahead and baptizing them anyway, are basically saying that the church should change, and start embracing sin, instead of the new convert changing, and embracing the doctrines of the church.

And don't forget that God knows the thoughts and the heart. If you go ahead and get yourself baptized knowing that you don't meet the requirements for baptism, who have you fooled?

[Dr. Rich]

What comes first, the chicken or the egg? Seems to me what Jesus said in Matthew 28 should be what we abide by instead of man made regulations.

[Windsor]

I know at least two nearby grocery stores that don't sell cigs. That of course may not be the case where you live. The point being that it helps to stay away from temptation. You don't tell the recovering alcoholic to get Sprite from a bar.

You grab a pack of cigs out of your nightstand first thing in the morning? Sleep in a different room. Changing the scenery gets you out of old habits.

[Guest]

Find a 5 day smoking plan....it works. Find someone else who wants to quit also, and do it together.

[M. T. Cross]

I seriously doubt that. As a rule, heroin addicts, and people who are still eating pork, and still drinking, don't line up to be baptized. And it would make no sense to baptize unconverted people into the church. You would only be doing them a disservice by doing that, and a disservice to the church also.

They are still welcome to come to church though. Baptism says publicly that I have given up my old lifestyle and embraced a new one by the grace of God. What message would it send to go ahead and baptize me anyway, knowing that I have not done that?

And my statement that I am making by being baptized, would be nothing but a lie. What a way to start off a new Christian. That would be wrong all the way around, for both the church and the person.

And it has NOTHING to do with the individual preacher. This is the policy of the church, worldwide, and it is Biblical.

Those who would get mad at the preacher, or the church, for not going ahead and baptizing them anyway, are basically saying that the church should change, and start embracing sin, instead of the new convert changing, and embracing the doctrines of the church.

And don't forget that God knows the thoughts and the heart. If you go ahead and get yourself baptized knowing that you don't meet the requirements for baptism, who have you fooled?

I will give you the heroin most likely, but I have been in the homes of baptized members and been served pork and had a beer or glass of wine with them. People often join a church because they believe the over all concept but not always all the fine details.

[Gibs]

Gibs, have you ever been a smoker?

For sure, for sure EmptyCross, I had gotten up to 4 packs of Camel cigarettes a day and had yaller fingers.

But like I told O.W. I needed more power than was in me and got on my knees and He strengthened me, I had two packs left, put one in my pocket carried it for 3 weeks until the pack and cigs feel apart, second pack the same. Many times the hand went for that pocket and each time He in me to give me strength the hand refusesed to pull a cig and have not smoked one to this day, I was in my 33rd yr.

For a yr. though to be around someone smoking or having a cup of coffee called for a cig, but after that the smell is repulsive. Yes I then put coffee away too and needed too as I have been bothered with an ulcer most of my life.

Jesus Christ is our victory and He wants to strengthen all to overcome sin and all that is detrimental. Surrender all is the victory as then He comes and dwells within and all things are possible, wonderful victory brings true peace.

It's a promise to us,

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Gibs, have you ever been a smoker?

For sure, for sure EmptyCross, I had gotten up to 4 packs of Camel cigarettes a day and had yaller fingers.

But like I told O.W. I needed more power than was in me and got on my knees and He strengthened me, I had two packs left, put one in my pocket carried it for 3 weeks until the pack and cigs feel apart, second pack the same. Many times the hand went for that pocket and each time He in me to give me strength the hand refusesed to pull a cig and have not smoked one to this day, I was in my 33rd yr.

For a yr. though to be around someone smoking or having a cup of coffee called for a cig, but after that the smell is repulsive. Yes I then put coffee away too and needed too as I have been bothered with an ulcer most of my life.

Jesus Christ is our victory and He wants to strengthen all to overcome sin and all that is detrimental. Surrender all is the victory as then He comes and dwells within and all things are possible, wonderful victory brings true peace.

It's a promise to us,

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

See now Gibs, that is a much more heartfelt and inspiring story than your first post about it. As I am sure you know, there is really not many things more irritating than someone that has never smoked telling smokers how to quit. But this you posted is as I say inspiring.

[Guest]

Quote:

I will give you the heroin most likely, but I have been in the homes of baptized members and been served pork and had a beer or glass of wine with them. People often join a church because they believe the over all concept but not always all the fine details.

If you have been to SDA homes that are still doing those things, then I would suggest to you that they are not really SDAs at all.

Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. Not by what they profess.

[CoAspen]

EC,

Am beginning to understand why you have chosen to not be a member of the church, official one that is! If I believed in some of these answers, neither would I!!

[Windsor]

I once spoke to an old 70+ non-SDA lady who smoked. She said that she enjoyed it and had no plans of ever quitting. In fact, she said she would enter the pearly gates with a cigarette in her hand and Jesus would just have to understand as she continued to smoke in Heaven. She didn't realize God doesn't allow poison in the New Jerusalem.

The point being is you have to want to quit smoking and you have to keep trying to quit. Every single day. Victory may not come today or tomorrow or this year but victory will never come without effort.

As to the aversion to gums and patches, nicotine by itself is far less dangerous than all the chemicals found in a cigarette. A pregnant lady once told me she didn't want to use a nicotine patch in place of her daily pack of cigarettes because she was afraid the nicotine would hurt the baby!!!!! Oh, but she somehow thought the cigarettes were better!

[FISAU]

Addiction to anything of this world (not only drugs) is a problem,

born out of sin, as long as you seek, ask and knock at his door (Matt 7:7) in faith, "he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all unrigteousness" (1 John 1:9)

A.Do I have to be completely cleaned up before I can be baptized? certainly not

1.Matt 11:28"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

2.2 Peter 3:9"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

3.Luke 5:32"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

B.To whom am I baptized to? Certainly not to the name of the SDA church

Matt 28:19"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

C. Can my addiction be completely overcomed in Christ? This question should never have been asked in the first place, this is an expression of doubt in his power to change lives, however if one wilfully sins then the answer is plain:

Hebrews 10:26-28"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

[Gustave]

According to Jesus what defiles a person is what comes out of their mouth & not what goes in...

...Therefore if they don't want to baptize you because you currently smoke.

...It's something other than historic Christianity you would be baptized into anyway.

...You sure you are up that type of thing?

[olger]

"Adventist churches are better off with 10 people who know why they are there than 100 who don't have a clue" (Andy Nash).

[Gustave]

Quote:

I will give you the heroin most likely, but I have been in the homes of baptized members and been served pork and had a beer or glass of wine with them. People often join a church because they believe the over all concept but not always all the fine details.

If you have been to SDA homes that are still doing those things, then I would suggest to you that they are not really SDAs at all.

Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. Not by what they profess.

Not having a glass of wine or not smoking is understood to be a "fruit" within Adventism?

....Did I understand you correctly there?

[Woody]

A couple of points -

Is baptism the beginning or the end? Are we perceived as perfect when we come to baptism or is it a symbol of dead and the desire from that day forward to put the things of this earth behind one's self?

Also - I find it interesting that when the Gospel Commission was given ... that the disciples did not have total faith in Jesus. They were doubting him. They had unbelief and hardness of heart. Yet he told them to go forth and baptize.

Read again Mark 16: 14-16

Surely - if the one whom is doing the baptizing ... has doubt, unbelief and hardness of heart - surely the person to be baptized should be allowed to smoke.

That is my theory and I'm stickin' to it.

[Woody]

I know of a number of peeps that have witnessed to me that once they prayed to God to take away their desire for smoking - that it was done. Very simple. No more desire. An answer to prayer.

But I have to wonder why the rest of the people who have prayed and their desire was NOT taken away - why was their prayer not answered?

I have concluded - that God does not always answer our prayers in the way we would have them to be answered. And to presume to know how God will answer them is taking upon ourselves the prerogative of God.

That is my belief and I am stickin' to it.

[phkrause]

If you have been to SDA homes that are still doing those things, then I would suggest to you that they are not really SDAs at all.

Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. Not by what they profess.

Not having a glass of wine or not smoking is understood to be a "fruit" within Adventism?

....Did I understand you correctly there?

I don't believe that that is what he's saying or he means at all Gustave. I can't believe that you would even think that. I think you know exactly what he meant.

[olger]

People who smoke, score above 70% percentile on the Taylor-Johnson Nervous/Composed category (test).

For some they must resolve the core issue(s) that is driving the nervousness, in order to get free from the bad habit of smoking.

[SivartM]

People who smoke, score above 70% percentile on the Taylor-Johnson Nervous/Composed category (test).

For some they must resolve the core issue(s) that is driving the nervousness, in order to get free from the bad habit of smoking.

Correlation is not causation. Do they smoke because they're nervous? Are they nervous because they smoke? Are people who smoke simply more likely to be nervous for reasons unrelated to smoking? And even if they smoke because they are nervous, it is still a chemical addiction, and can you cure a chemical addiction simply by being less nervous? I doubt it.

[Guest]

Not having a glass of wine or not smoking is understood to be a "fruit" within Adventism?

....Did I understand you correctly there?

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5:19-23

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Not having a glass of wine or not smoking is understood to be a "fruit" within Adventism?

....Did I understand you correctly there?

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5:19-23

I think the way you are interpreting that - I am doomed to Hell. But I will not be alone. For all of us manifest the works of the flesh as you have outlined.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Not having a glass of wine or not smoking is understood to be a "fruit" within Adventism?

....Did I understand you correctly there?

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5:19-23

So you are saying that not smoking is a fruit of the spirit...

...Thus you can tell if a person is good by the fact they don't smoke.

...Therefore if someone wanted to be baptized into the SDA church.

...If they smoked or drank a glass of wine they would have to stop prior to baptism.

[Guest]

You may believe that smoking cigarettes is a temperate thing to do. But I do not. The Bible clearly embraces a health message for the people of God.