RE: Father, Son & Holy Ghost....3 gods.

[Overaged]

The Trinity dogma has blinded your eyes to the point that you can’t see what I see in Scripture.

“Jesus said of Himself: "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He hath anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor, He hath sent Me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind; to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord."

(Luke 4: 18,19).”

What Jesus said makes logical sense provided you remember that Jesus divested himself from divinity while on earth and relied entirely on the presence and power of his Father who is “Holy” and is “Spirit.”

“How then can the broken-hearted be healed without the Third Person of the Godhead; without The Holy Spirit, who sent Jesus to do this? Does the Bible say "Jesus sent Himself?"”

No, he was sent by his Father.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

The created beings had a nieve love of a child, God wanted it to grow into a mature love and to reach that depended on them looking into the questions about whether or not God is really God or just a higher evolved life form with a natural start, and if he is God can he be both just and merciful. Whether Lucifer and any of the rest of us ever sinned or not the death of Jesus was needed for the non-fallen beings to close their probation.

That is just about the most odd thing I've ever heard Kevin...

...Is this what SDA's believe ( are taught )?

...What you said sounds Mormonish with some Scientology thrown in as well.

"Non-fallen beings closing their probation"????

"Whether or not God is really God or just a higher evolved life form with a natural start"????

Yes, some of it does because what I had included in this paragraph was the three deceptions of Satan, I'm sorry that you did not notice where I was talking about the context and talking about the issues of the Great Controversy, the three deceptions of Satan. Mormonism, Scientology and all other deceptions come from the three deceptions of Satan. So that was very insightful of you to notice, unfortunetely you did not differeniate between what I was trying to say and where I was pointing out what Satan was saying. For a clearer understanding of this paragraph my I recommend three chapters in "Sanctuary and the Atonement by the Biblical Research Committee of Seventh-day Adventists" 1981 (the original 1981 edition with the yellowish-cream and black cover) "The Mighty Opposits: The Atonement in the Writings of Ellen G. White" parts 1 and 2 and "We Must All Appear: The Investigative Judgment in the writings of Ellen G. White"

[Gibs]

OV,

I think you will find Nic is right in the statement he made and you say,

"Nic says "He was sent by the Father; the Bible says (Luke 4:18-19), that "The Spirit sent Him." God "Gave Him;" (John 3:16) and the Holy Spirit sent Him. (Luke 4:18-19)

Well here is one and there is more that the Father did send Him.

Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

Then what of the ones that the Spirit sent Him, when, well, read,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

That verse makes it clear that God is primarily a Spirit. We know He fills the total of His creation, there is just no place that you could go to escape Him that He isn't there.

The real you and me is spirit, we just dwell in a body and we think that makes us real because the body is seen by us, well the angels and God are real too but our eyes aren't opened to see the spirit world. Someday it will be so.

The Father was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, Jesus was not another God, but THE GOD dwelt in Him.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Nic Samojluk]

Gustave wrote:

“You should start reading your Bible more & Ellen White less then.”

My main source is the Bible. I give priority to what Scripture teaches above any other source.

“Acts 2,23

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God”

God knew that this might be the outcome. He also knew and predicted through the Angel Gabriel that Jesus would sit on David’s throne. This prediction did not take place. Two alternatives were open to the Jewish nation. The Jews were free to choose between those two outcomes.

“Isaiah 14,24

The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand”

Are you saying that God masterminded the worst evil ever committed in the universe? If so, then you are worshipping a very strange God—one who resembles the Devil himself! The Devil is a murderer. God is not!

Do you mean that it was God’s plan and desire that his Only Son be killed? If God is the one who planned the death of Jesus, then God is guilty of murder, and we need to credit the Devil for helping God secure the Plan of Salvation.

Was God among the crowd which claimed “crucify him”? If God wanted the death of Jesus, then why did he send an angel to Pilate’s wife warning her that her husband was on the verge of killing an innocent man?

And why did God empower Jesus to perform all his miracles? Weren’t those miracles designed to help the Jews realize that he was in fact the Son of God sent to save them first from sin and then from the Romans?

“Isaiah 14,27

For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?”

What God purposed was to save repentant sinners even if they chose to kill the one sent to save them. The choice to have Jesus killed was not his, but the Devil’s and his followers'.

“Isaiah 46,11

I have purposed it, I will also do it.”

See my comment above!

“Eph 1,9

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him”

His will was to save those who repent!

"NOW, Read The Following S L O W L Y.

Eph 3,11

ACCORDING to the ETERNAL PURPOSE which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord”

His eternal purpose was to give the Jewish nation plenty of evidence that Jesus was the promised Savior and their rightful King, and to offer salvation to all repentant sinners, even those who rejected him if they repent of their awful sin. This is why Jesus prayed: “Lord, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

“2nd Timothy 2,19

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which WAS given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE the world began”

Read my comment above!

“And 1st John 3,8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.”

Planning and masterminding the death of the most innocent man who ever lived is the work of the Devil—not the requirement of a just God who hates evil.

The Lord is willing to forgive in spite of the fact that we killed his Son—not thanks to this most awful crime!

God’s plan was for Jesus to sit on David’s throne. This could have taken place if the Jews had considered the evidence provided by heaven through the miraculous works performed by Jesus Christ.

It is high time that we lay the blame for the death of Jesus on the shoulders on the one who has been "a murderer from the beginning," the Old Serpent who deceives the whole world--even Christians and Adventists--instead of blaming God for this crime.

[Nic Samojluk]

John317 wrote:

“Nic, it's your word against many clear statements the Bible.”

It is rather the Bible against the Christian tradition of blaming God for the worst crime ever committed by humanity.

“Without Christ's resurrection, none of us would have a chance to be resurrected and saved in God's kingdom. But in order for Christ to be resurrected from the grave, He first had to go into the grave.”

You are making the same mistake Joseph of old did when he told his brothers not to worry about their sin of selling Joseph as a slave. My question to you: Did God plan to have Joseph sold as a slave by his brothers? Did God mastermind this evil and cruel act?

You seem to view God as masterminding and designing evil acts in order to bring good out of this. I see God as allowing humans to make mistakes and using the undesirable circumstances to bless humanity. I see God as bringing good in spite of our mistakes—not thanks to them!

Take the case of Levi, the son of Jacob. Jacob predicted that because of his sin God would disperse his progeny among the nation of Israel. This was God’s punishment. This punishment resulted in a blessing when the Levites repented. They were dispersed among the Israelite nation, but they became God’s teachers among God’s people.

“Luke 24:46

[Jesus] said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead.." The NKJV reads, "and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer..." (Compare verse 44)”

It is also written in Luke 1: “30But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.”

Ellen White did tell us that God’s warnings and threatening are conditional:

“But has the word of the Lord failed? Never! It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional.” {Mar 61.1}

“God's favor toward Israel had always been conditional on their obedience.” {PK 293.1}

Acts 2:23

"this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."

God knew that this was one of the alternatives. He also knew that the other alternative was for the Jews to accept Jesus as their promised Messiah and rightful King. The future was open to the Jewish leaders. They had a real alternative. This is why Jesus lamented over the city of Jerusalem:

“34“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 35Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’b”

41As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

Why did Jesus weep? Because he knew that the future of God’s chosen nation could have been different. They could have accepted him as their Savior. They chose to follow the Devil’s plan—not God’s—which included the death of Jesus.

God’s plan was to save sinners. This he has determined to accomplish in spite of the Jewish rejection of God’s original plan of having Jesus sit on David’s throne. After the fact explanations are not the best.

Likewise, God could have saved Jacob’s family from famine in many ways. God was not dependent on Joseph’s brother cruel deeds to accomplish this. God carries out his beneficent will in spite of our mistakes—not thanks to them.

“Acts 3:14-15

"But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, [15] and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses."”

Yes, the Jewish leaders made the wrong choice. It was not according to God’s preferred option. God was determined to save sinners in spite of their evil ways provided they repented from their sins.

“NOTE: Christ's death and resurrection were both necessary for the salvation of the human race. It couldn't happen without Christ's death. This doesn't mean humans and the Devil aren't responsible for Christ's death.”

It was also necessary and predicted that Jesus would sit on David’s throne. Do not forget this. If God depended on the worst murder ever committed to save us, then we owe a debt of gratitude to the Devil for helping with the Plan of Salvation. God saves in spite of the murder of Jesus—not thanks to it!

[Gustave]

God knew that this might be the outcome. He also knew and predicted through the Angel Gabriel that Jesus would sit on David’s throne. This prediction did not take place. Two alternatives were open to the Jewish nation. The Jews were free to choose between those two outcomes.

[Overaged]

...And based on the error of thinking God formulated a plan SUBSEQUENT to sin en

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...And based on the error of thinking God formulated a plan SUBSEQUENT to sin en

You called it "murder;" but our Lord calls it a Sacrifice; and that Sacrifice was planned.

Quote:

Heb_9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

1Pe_1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Did you mean this reply for Nic?

[Nic Samojluk]

John317 wrote:

“I don't have a theory, Nic. All I have is the Bible and all of the ancient Greek manuscripts as well as all of the ancient translations of Matthew, which contain the verse that you claim was fraudulently inserted by Trinitarians.”

The weight of evidence favors my understanding of this issue, since all the references to baptism do not use the threefold baptismal formula. Do you have a convincing explanation for this apparent biblical anomaly?

If the original manuscripts did contain the three names in Matthew 28:19, then tell me why no one used said baptismal formula in all the New Testament?

You also need to offer a logical and credible explanation for the disappearance of all the older manuscripts around the third and fourth century precisely at the time when entire libraries were being destroyed by fire and the persecution of non Trinitarians was taking place.

“It is your theory that you need to prove and it falls flat. The only reason you don't accept Matt. 28: 19 is that you don't like what it obviously teaches: that the Godhead consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, three distinct divine Persons.”

Wrong conclusion! I do not need to prove anything. Al I need is to weigh the available evidence from the Bible and from history for myself. This I have already done.

I am not in a crusade to convince anybody about the correctness of my understanding. There is another wrong positions espoused by my church which is a hundred times more important than the Trinity.

I am referring to the issue of abortion which my church justifies under a variety of circumstances. This is where my main interest is and where I have invested thousands of hours at great loss of revenue from my business.

[John317]

John317 wrote:

“I don't have a theory, Nic. All I have is the Bible and all of the ancient Greek manuscripts as well as all of the ancient translations of Matthew, which contain the verse that you claim was fraudulently inserted by Trinitarians.”

The weight of evidence favors my understanding of this issue, since all the references to baptism do not use the threefold baptismal formula. Do you have a convincing explanation for this apparent biblical anomaly?

Actually, if you understand Matt. 28: 19 correctly, you will see that baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ is the same as baptizing in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All Three divine Persons have a single Name, or authority. It isn't necessary to repeat the names of all Three divine Persons in order to be citing their authority.

For instance, in Acts 3: 6, Peter tells a certain sick man to get up and walk "in the name [authority] of Jesus the Nazarene." The fact that Peter didn't cite the names of the Father and the Holy Spirit doesn't mean that they weren't included in the authority by which the man was healed. They obviously were.

[Gustave]

Actually, if you understand Matt. 28: 19 correctly, you will see that baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ is the same as baptizing in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All Three divine Persons have a single Name, or authority. It isn't necessary to repeat the names of all Three divine Persons in order to be citing their authority.

For instance, in Acts 3: 6, Peter tells a certain sick man to get up and walk "in the name [authority] of Jesus the Nazarene." The fact that Peter didn't cite the names of the Father and the Holy Spirit doesn't mean that they weren't included in the authority by which the man was healed. They obviously were.

That is absolutely correct.

[Overaged]

Yes, I did mean that reply for Nic

[Gibs]

On the topic,Father,Son & Holy Ghost, 3 or 1?

Who Art Thou? Jesus Was asked

Here He was appearing as a man claiming to be God.

Of a certainty all Christians should believe Yahshua/Jesus is THE only WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE. But not all as when He was here as one of us many did not know who He was. He was asked “Who Art Thou”.

This time we will look at the scriptures that reveal Who He is, who the Father is and who the Holy Spirit is.

I don't think it is hard to clear up this issue. The Father, 1, the Son, 2, Holy Spirit, 3, are one in Truth. The Son was brought out of Himself, the Father before anything and the Father sent Him the Son to do all the creation, all of the hosts and everything. His name though was LORD, YHWH, of Hosts before Bethlehem. Please read on to see if these statements are true that I've stated.-

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (Then --)

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. (notice LORD of hosts above which is also YHWH)(notice also “beside me there is no God”. They are one and will be brought out in later verses.)(Also who is the "I" that stated "I am the first, and I am the last".)

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. (We are his witnesses as to who He is)

All the Gods there are is brought out in Isa 44:6 above and notice "I am the first, and I am the last" in the following verse. -

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. - - now I ask you, how many firsts can you have? Just one, it means before any other, and you know that is Jesus speaking. We know He isn't the father so there is only one solution, The Father Was In Him and scripture proves it.

OK now let's see who the Holy Spirit is. - - Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Since we now know the Father and the Son are God and the above verse Jesus tells us that He and the Father are Spirit..

People all get it wrong with our Lord's statement here - -

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. Truly yes Truly one substance. Spirit beings are real, we are not made to see them but we are surrounded by them.

Now another verse - - 2Co 5:19 To wit, that God ( the Father ) was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Christ then is the Father extended to be our redeemer and one of us.

Then the Lord's statement to Philip - - Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

You should see that Jesus the son has revealed who He and the Father are

Mt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

To sum it up He has told us He and the Father ARE ONE and that they are Spirit, The Holy Spirit. He came to us in the form of His Son and now abides in us by Spirit. He is not limited that He can not be what He needs to be for the salvation of man and that plan was laid before anything. And so hence, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and so 1 John is correct, -

- 1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

When He Jesus has finished all He is brought fourth out of the Father to do, as He says, I was sent, - -

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Then when it is finished. - -

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. ( Yet reigning )

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. ( Only the Father is excepted )

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Son then becomes subject to the Father and so now the Father is as He was before bringing forth an equal from Himself to take care of the rebellion He knew would happen. Also now the Son is just that, His Son the Prince and also at the same time one of us. He no longer is the ruling Deity He had been to accomplish the Redemption plan. The Father gave of Himself and dwelt in the Body prepared Him and so knows us as He was one of us, for remember the Father was in Christ. 2 Cor 5:19 above. The Body prepared verse is, - - Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

A body was prepared that He would have blood to shed as the blood of animals etc. could not suffice.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Notice this verse very carefully,

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.We sing “How Great Thou Art” in much awe realizing this

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Nic Samojluk]

But Acts 1: 2 says that Christ gave them commands before He went back to heaven. So it wasn't through His "invisible presence" that He gave them the order. He gave them the order while He was still physically present with them.

Excellent observation! I should have said "through the invisibloe presence of God the Father."

[Nic Samojluk]

Kevin H wrote:

“Whether Lucifer and any of the rest of us ever sinned or not the death of Jesus was needed for the non-fallen beings to close their probation.”

We Christians have been deceived into believing that Jesus had to die because it was predicted. We have learned nothing from the story of Jonah. So let me ask:

When God sent his prophet to Nineveh with the prediction that the city would be destroyed in 40 days, was the Lord’s chief concern about the accuracy of his prediction or rather in the repentance of those people?

Notice that Jonah was more concerned about his own prestige. He feared that if his prediction did not come true he would be considered as a false prophet. When the 40 days were over and his prediction had failed, he wanted to die. God, on the other hand, rejoiced because a large number of people and animals were saved from destruction.

It is true! It was predicted that Jesus would suffer and die; but we forget that it was also predicted that he would sit on David throne. These predictions were contradictory. Only one of them could take place. Jesus never sat on David’s throne. Why? Because out of the two alternatives the Jewish leaders chose to reject their promised Savior and King.

We believe that without the death of Jesus there would be no forgiveness. I decided to check my dictionary, and discovered that forgiveness is defined as the forfeiture of the right to exact the payment of a debt.

Can you demand payment of a debt which has been forgiven? We have attributed to God the character of his enemy. We have painted God as a vindictive King who will demand his pound of flesh as a condition of forgiveness.

We say that it was necessary for God to suffer before he could forgive, forgetting that suffering is the natural result of rejected love. The Bible states that “In all their afflictions, he was afflicted.”

God’s suffering started when rebellion open the floodgates of suffering and death in the universe. God was on the cross beginning with day one when Lucifer chose to rebel against the Creator. This is why Jesus is described in the Bible as the “Lamb of God.”

That Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. God’s suffering started with the entrance of sin and rebellion—not when Jesus hung on the cross. Had Jesus been accepted as the rightful king of the Jews, there would have been no need for Jesus to suffer, because God had suffered enough already for thousands of years as he witnessed the awful results of sin.

Ellen White has a statement in her book Education where she describes the cross as a window designed to show us the suffering and pain God was subjected to since the inception of sin.

This passage emphasizes God suffering prior to Jesus birth as a baby in Bethlehem. She says that the cross is a process instead of an event. This process started the day Lucifer rebelled and it will end with the eradication of sin from the universe.

[Nic Samojluk]

Jerusalem will still be the capitol of the world made new! And guess who will be on the throne? Being that Jesus was rejected, does not negate the fact that he was from the line of David and in that respect would've been sitting on David's throne.

Are you suggesting that God's promise meant nothing for the Jewish nation?

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

I do not believe that God’s plan was for his Only Son to die.

The Devil and humans are the ones responsible for the death of Jesus—not God!

PLAN OF REDEMPTION INVOLVES ONLY TWO:

Zechariah 6:13 "Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both."

HOWEVER, ELLEN WHITE SAYS THAT THE PLAN OF REDEMPTION INVOLVES THREE:

"The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin. What line can measure the depth of this love? God would make it impossible for man to say that He could have done more. With Christ He gave all the resources of heaven, that nothing might be wanting in the plan for man's uplifting. Here is love--the contemplation of which should fill the soul with inexpressible gratitude! Oh, what love, what matchless love! The contemplation of this love will cleanse the soul from all selfishness. It will lead the disciple to deny self, take up the cross, and follow the Redeemer." {CH 222.2}

Is what Ellen White states above in violation for Revelation 22:18?

Revelation 22:18 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book"

Ellen White also states that Lucifer occupied the third position of honor in heaven before his fall. My question: Did the Holy Spirit occupy the fourth position?

[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged wrote:

“Nic says "He was sent by the Father; the Bible says (Luke 4:18-19), that "The Spirit sent Him." God "Gave Him;" (John 3:16) and the Holy Spirit sent Him. (Luke 4:18-19)”

Did anybody see the Holy Spirit doing this? What did Jesus say about the action of the Holy Spirit to Nicodemus? Didn’t Jesus describe it as the action of the wind? We do not see the wind, but only the results of its activity.

“God's presence and power is not manif

ested invisibly at all.”

I have heard many times pastors and even Ellen White say: “We could feel the presence of God.” How can you claim that God’s presence is no manifested in an invisible manner?

“Jesus did not say He would do this "invisibly." He did not once say this.”

But he did say that he would come back to them and that he would not leave them orphans. You need to read said passage in John 14 again without the Trinitarian lenses. It clearly states that Jesus, the one who had been living with them would come back.

“In fact, what He said was very specific: ANOTHER Comforter would come. The word "ANOTHER" is the opposite of the same, as you say it.”

Jesus referred to himself in the third person more than once in Scripture.

[Kevin H]

Nic, the Father and Son are two objective revelations of the infinite God which is why they have the two positions of honnor, the Holy Spirit is God's revelation to the subjective expirence and thus with us individually and therefor not in one of the two subjective positions.

[Kevin H]

I know that the prophecies are conditional to how people respond. However in the Bible and Mrs. White the condition for Jesus to die is having created, non-infinite beings who would need it as an aspect of their growth so that they would be able to trust God for all eternity and maintain that righteousness by faith relationship that is needed to live.

[Guest DennisKean]

Quote:

Then you have this statement by Jesus,

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Question here now is, how many firsts can we have? Answer, JUST ONE!

That is your proof it is the Father that is in Christ rconciling the world unto Himself.

Gibs,

When the savior was resurrected he spoke to the disciples and said:

Quote:

• 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

  19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

The reason the Savior deferred to His Father was not because He was not a member of the Godhead. It was because He gave up power in order to solve the issue of sin by the Spirit of God, not by power.

Quote:

Zec_4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

If the Father is God only, how could ALL POWER in earth and heaven be given to the Son? It makes no sense. Power was restored to the Son of God. And the Savior is God because He is the only begotten son of the Father. If He was not a member of the family of God, then He would be nothing more than what we are. For we all are the sons of God! But He is referred to as "THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD"

And most importantly, if the Savior was not God. then God would not have saved man. It would have been a man who saved us!!! It might as well have been Gabriel. But such an act, though grand for Gabriel would be meaningless to bring salvation of man. The Sacrifice of the Savior was a sacrifice of God the very Almighty God. Lucifer was known to be a murderer from the beginning. But the infamy of his character was that he did not hesitate to kill his own God to advance his cause.

To preach that the Savior is not God is to discredit the plan of Salvation, my friend. It is to insult God from the highest honor He has shown toward His creation. God came to die in order to save man. You do not realize what you are saying, dear friend. This is one of the harshest position one could take to slander God and His marvelous character of love.

Finally, here is the clearest reason to recognize the Savior as God! The Bible says that He is God!

Quote:

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The Savior has a Father and our direct Father outside of the GrandFather God (whom we call Father) is the Savior. He is our immediate Father because He created us!!! The Bible is a precision instrument when you read it carefully. The only limitation is the Hebrew language. Grandfathers were referred to as Fathers.

Dennis Kean

[Lysimachus]

I am totally persuaded that Jesus, the Son of God is 100% equal with His Father, and fully God, despite the fact that the Scriptures and the Spirit of Prophecy leave no room for a role play--that is, that despite Christ being fully God and from eternity, is truly His Son. Not a pretended Son. That is a mystery we may never figure out till we get to heaven, but we accept it by faith. That God is truly the Father of Christ, and Christ is truly the Son of God, as inspiration says.

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God." (Phil. 2:5,6)

"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." (John 5:18)

"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name." (Phil. 2:18)

Inspiration sheds more light on this:

• God IS the Father of Christ; Christ IS the Son of God. To Christ has been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to His Son. {8T 268.3}

[Gibs]

Lys,

Of course He, Jesus is not a pretended son. He is the Prince of the Father any way you look at it. He was with a human nature and a Divine Nature, the two were blended in the man who Mary birthed and was to and did name Him Jesus. What made Him Fully God is the Fact The Father was in Him.

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jesus said it there himself and here we have an apostle tell us the same,

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

You can't make three God's out of the one and only TRUE GOD.

He will eternally be but the one and only ONE there is.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

X100

[John317]

I am totally persuaded that Jesus, the Son of God is 100% equal with His Father, and fully God, despite the fact that the Scriptures and the Spirit of Prophecy leave no room for a role play--that is, that despite Christ being fully God and from eternity, is truly His Son. Not a pretended Son.

Is Christ a "pretend Son" if He isn't a Son like humans are sons of their fathers?

What does the Bible mean when it says Christ is "the Son of God"?

To find the answer, we have to study the way the Bible uses the term, "son of". What we find when we do that is that "the son of" EQUALS "of the order of." For instance, the sons of the prophets weren't literal sons of a prophet but they were of the order of the prophets. Simiarly, the sons of the singers weren't the sons of a singer but were of the order of the singers. So the pre-incarnate Christ was "THE Son of God" not because He came out of God's being in some way but because He was of the same essence or nature as God the Father. Christ is the perfect image of God's Person. That's what Hebrews 1: 3 is saying.

Consider this statement:

Quote:

Christ brought men and women power to overcome. He came to this world in human form, to live a man amongst men. He assumed the liabilities of human nature, to be proved and tried. In His humanity He was a partaker of the divine nature. In His incarnation He gained in a new sense the title of the Son of God. Said the angel to Mary, "The power of the Highest shall overshadow

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thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). While the Son of a human being, He became the Son of God in a new sense. Thus He stood in our world--the Son of God, yet allied by birth to the human race. {1SM 226.2}

When Christ was born on earth, Christ became the Son of God in a new sense. At that point He became the literal Son of the Father. He wasn't the literal Son of the Father before His birth on this earth. The mistake many people make is that they think that unless the pre-incarnate Christ derived His existence from the Father, then He wasn't truly the Son of God.

Being truly the Son of God prior to coming to this earth as the Messiah is not synonymous with being the literal Son of God in the sense of coming out of the Father in some way.

We have to consider all of the Bible and all of the Spirit of Prophecy on this topic. Ellen White says plainly that Christ is "self-existent." "Self-existent" means not depending on anyone or anything else for one's existence. She also makes plain that Christ's life originates with Himself alone. DA 530.

Jesus Christ the man had a beginning, and was the literal Son of God, but the pre-incarnate Christ, the eternal Son of God, had no beginning and was not a son in the exact same sense in which humans are sons.