RE: Father, Son & Holy Ghost....3 gods.

[doug yowell]

I don't believe the Trinity is of itself a matter of salvation. People of both views will be in heaven.

An important concept to keep in mind since we are attempting to understand Infinity with a finite mind.And the mysteries of sin and redemption from a sinfully warped perspective.

[John317]

Do you have a plain "Thus saith the LORD" to support your doctrine that "begotten" means "only" or "unique" or "one of a kind" rather than actually "born"?

I cannot accept your doctrine except for a plain "thus saith the LORD"

It's not a doctrine that "begotten" means "one of a kind" and "unique." It's a well recognized definition of a Greek word that you will find in all the standard Greek-English lexicons. I'm fairly sure you aren't suggesting that we need a "thus saith the Lord" for every definition of a Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic word. At least I hope you aren't.

There are examples of the use of "begotten" [Gk monogenes] which show that it isn't referring to the process of literal birth. Look, for instance, at how it is used in Hebrews 11: 17, where Isaac is called Abraham's "only begotten son," even though Ishmael was also a biological, natural son of Abraham.

Monogenes comes from two Greek words:

Monos (Strong's #3441)=alone, sole, only, unique.

Genos (Strong's #1085)=kind, sort, species, race (For instance, Matt. 13: 47)

[John317]

I think Jesus is going to hold a very large class-- perhaps a number of them-- to get us all straightened out on doctrines. The only problem will be if people tell God that they refuse to change their mind and prefer to believe lies. That will be a problem.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...You have adopted some very strange and alien concepts John.

Quote:John317

Like the weekly Sabbath, you mean?

Why would one be persuaded re the doctrine of 'Sabbath' when he or she rejects the words of Jeremiah and Hosea re the dissolution of the OT calendar; yet, embrace the words of another -- for whom we've received no sure word.

>>Or that we should not pray to Mary and the other dead saints?<<

Interesting choice of words -- "We should not...", as it is textually impossible to validate the negative from Writ.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Are not the four and twenty elders saints? But of course they are. Are they not acting intercessorially re the prayers of other than themselves?--the prayers of saints for instance? But of course they are. However, one might still ask, "What of the protocols and the mechanics?"

Per them and St Mary: one would expect more righteousnrdd than we who are upon earth not yet received into perfecton, who are still Biblically enjoined to pray for one another intercessorially -- and of whom it is said that the prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Seems to me "mo' righteous, mo' better, yes?"

Jesus Christ Himself told us to pray intercessorially for even those who persecute us -- and gave us the example of the effectiveness of the pleading of one who does so for another: "And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, [so] be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour." (Matt 8:13)

Remember, that Jesus Christ is the author, Judge, Priest, and King of a New Covenant; whereas, Moses was of an Old Covenant -- the Old having passed away... according to St Paul.

We are not afforded the rigor dogma of intellectual decay, as we are told that where there exists a New Covenant -- there exists new laws.

Lastly, having argued for a Tri-part Gdhead, is there any text or passage in Writ that either proscribes or precludes [an]other member(s) of the Gdhead?--I mean, should my conversation revolve about a sister and a brother -- should one adduce that [abbreviation] as my not having other siblings? Logically, the answer would be, "No, it should not" -- with the question obtaining.

[Gustave]

The Trinity/Godhead as the Bible teaches it, not the Trinity of church traditions or of the creeds.

[Nic Samojluk]

John317 wrote:

“Nic, the truth is that if Ellen White wrote as many false things are you claim she did, she was of necessity a false prophet. She couldn't have been a true prophet of God and make what you claim to be false statements. A genuine prophet of God doesn't need to be infallible. ”

You seem to have a false expectation of true prophets. Tell me: Was Martin Luther a false prophet? Did he have a true view about the Sabbath? Add to this all the great Reformers the Lord used as his instruments in the past. Were they all false prophets? Do you believe that Billy Graham was also a false prophet?

Have you read the book Counsels to Editors and Writers? Did you notice what Ellen wrote about new truths to be discovered? Should we be content with what she learned from her study of the Bible? Should her teaching be a roadblock to further study of Scripture?

“The Bible writers weren't infallible men, either, yet they didn't write false teachings, which you claim Ellen White did.”

You are forcing me to repeat myself! Do you accept Paul’s doctrine of God’s sovereignty as described in Romans 9? Do you accept his teaching that it was God who hardened the heart of Pharaoh?

Do you accept David’s teaching that God’s people should rejoice when the children of Israel’s enemies are dashed against the rocks? Does such an attitude agree with what Jesus said about loving our enemies?

The revelation of truth and God’s character is progressive. Do you accept this? Ellen did believe this! Do you believe that the Lord did reveal to Ellen everything that is hidden in God’s Word?

“If she did, then we can't trust her.”

Wrong! We do trust that the Reformers were used by God for the salvation of thousands of people. We do trust in them for those doctrines which are true, but we do not trust them where they deviated from Scripture.

The Sabbath is a good example. Most past reformers never saw the light of the Sabbath. Nevertheless, we to not treat them as false prophets and false teachers.

“Ellen White never suggested that people are free to pick and choose what they want to believe of her writings and reject the rest.”

She did say that if her testimonies did not agree with Scripture, we should reject them. We do accept from the Reformers those doctrines that are solidly founded on the Bible and reject whenever they deviated from a “thus said the Lord.”

“If she doesn't pass the Bible tests, reject her. But don't think you can have it both ways. She said herself that she is either of God or of the Devil."

Can you apply the same test to the Reformers? Would you say that because they did not believe in the Sabbath, they were an instrument of the Devil? Why do you subject Ellen to a higher standard than all the other holy men God used in the past?

[Nic Samojluk]

John317 wrote:

“You are clearly misunderstanding Ellen White because she obviously is not saying that Lucifer is equal or above the Third Person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.

I'm afraid, Nic, it is you who are not reading Ellen White's writings carefully enough. Notice the following paragraphs and observe that the context has to do with Lucifer's envy of Christ:”

It all depends on how you interpret the phrase “inhabitants of heaven.” If you exclude God and Christ from the “inhabitants of heaven” phrase, then you are right.

Nevertheless, I see no logical reason to make such and exclusion. Ellen is talking about Lucifer, God, and Christ. How can you suddenly exclude Christ and God from being among the inhabitants off heaven?”

“Sin originated with him, who, next to Christ, had been most honored of God and was highest among the inhabitants of heaven. Lucifer, “son of the morning,” (Isaiah 14:12) was holy and undefiled. [From Eternity Past, Page 10]”

You further stated:

“It's absurd to claim that Ellen White's writings show that there was no Holy Spirit at the time of Lucifer's rebellion or that Lucifer was closer to Christ's position than the Third Person of the Godhead.”

What Ellen stated here is that among the inhabitants of heaven, Lucifer was the most honored next to Christ. Elsewhere she tells us that it was the HS the one who occupied the third position of honor in heaven. Logic demands that two individuals cannot occupy the third position of honor at the same time.

[Nic Samojluk]

What good would such a fake temptation [or test] have done? Would you call a test genuine if the person being tested cannot possibly fail?

If Christ could not possibly have sinned, Christ's temptation would only have proved that Satan's allegations against God were true.

As the Second Adam, Christ's temptations proved that it was possible for Adam to have obeyed God. Adam need not have disobeyed God. He could have obeyed God's law. That is what Christ did. But Christ could only demonstrate this if Christ could have sinned. If Christ had an advantage over Adam, the test wouldn't have proved that Adam need not have sinned.

Well said, John!

[Nic Samojluk]

John317 wrote:

“You sure of this? You are actually only showing how little you know and understand of Ellen G. White. For one thing, if you are right here, I wouldn't spend another dollar on her writings; they wouldn't be worth the paper they are printed on, and she would prove to be a very superficial thinker and writer. Happily for the SDA Church, you are wrong.”

I suggest that you read what Ellen White wrote about the Reformers. She would never have said about the Reformers what you just said about her. She described them as God’s instruments in spite of the fact that they never gave up their erroneous view of the Sabbath. God’s revelations to human beings are progressive. Don’ forget this!

[Nic Samojluk]

John317 wrote:

“Actually I think you have the importance of the doctrines confused. The keeping of God's commandments is far more important than being exactly right about all the details with respect to the Godhead. God commands us to obey the Ten Commandments and to be loyal to Him, but His law doesn't command us to believe in the "Trinity" or in certain concepts having to do with the relationship between the members of the Godhead. That's why our pioneers were right to emphasize the commandments of God and not the Trinity, and it's why James White wrote in the R&H that the Trinity is not a test of fellowship or character. I don't believe the Trinity is of itself a matter of salvation. People of both views will be in heaven. The problem comes when people allow the doctrinal differences to cause them to mistreat other believers.”

Excellent! I fully agree with your view. And let us not forget the our Adventist pioneers also believed in the sanctity of human life from the moment of conception and that they strongly condemned the practice of abortion, and described such practice as a direct violation of God’s Commandments.

Our involvement in the killing of innocent unborn babies in our own Adventist hospitals is a great sin which we must repent of and ask God’s forgiveness. We started offering elective abortions three years before abortion became legal in the U.S. mainland. In this, Rome has set for us an example of faithfulness to God’s injunction against the killing of innocent human beings.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

Do you have a plain "Thus saith the LORD" to support your doctrine that "begotten" means "only" or "unique" or "one of a kind" rather than actually "born"?

I cannot accept your doctrine except for a plain "thus saith the LORD"

It's not a doctrine that "begotten" means "one of a kind" and "unique." It's a well recognized definition of a Greek word that you will find in all the standard Greek-English lexicons. I'm fairly sure you aren't suggesting that we need a "thus saith the Lord" for every definition of a Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic word. At least I hope you aren't.

There are examples of the use of "begotten" [Gk monogenes] which show that it isn't referring to the process of literal birth. Look, for instance, at how it is used in Hebrews 11: 17, where Isaac is called Abraham's "only begotten son," even though Ishmael was also a biological, natural son of Abraham.

Monogenes comes from two Greek words:

Monos (Strong's #3441)=alone, sole, only, unique.

Genos (Strong's #1085)=kind, sort, species, race (For instance, Matt. 13: 47)

Great response!

[doug yowell]

“The Bible writers weren't infallible men, either, yet they didn't write false teachings, which you claim Ellen White did.”

You are forcing me to repeat myself! Do you accept Paul’s doctrine of God’s sovereignty as described in Romans 9? Do you accept his teaching that it was God who hardened the heart of Pharaoh?

[Nic Samojluk]

doug yowell wrote:

"Where does David (under Inspiration) ever imply that? Do you have to resort to making up Bible verses in order to illuminate Bible truth?"

Here is the Biblical passage you said I fabricated:

“Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks!”[Psalm 137:9]

You also wrote the following:

“Does the direct command by God for the Israelites to wipe out men, women, AND CHILDREN agree with the attitudes of loving our enemies demanded by Jesus?”

Yes, and God destroyed the entire pre-flood generation and the inhabitants of Sodom. I hope you see a difference between what he does and what we, prone to err humans, are allowed to do.

The Bible predicts that the Lord will destroy the evildoers at his Second Coming. God can do this because he can read our minds and determine with perfect accuracy whether there is still hope for us to repent of our evil ways. We humans cannot do this. This is why Jesus ordered us to love our enemies.

“How bout the "doctrine" of Paul in Romans 9 that tells us that God hated Esau before he was even born or done anything wrong?”

The meaning of the original Hebrew is “love less” instead of hate. We carry certain genes which the Lord can read and made a better selection between two otherwise very similar babies. We can’t!

“Where are you going with this, two different God's or One that Himself is progressively learning truth?”

I was talking about progressive revelation—not progressive learning by Almighty, All knowing God.

“Of course revelation of Truth is progressive but it is not progressively truthful.”

I amazed that you do not see moral progress between smashing innocent babies against the rocks and loving even our enemies!

"Herein lies your real issue with EGW. SDA's don't accept the Reformers as having the same gift of prophesy as EGW."

There is revelatory progress between the writings of the Reformers and the writings of Ellen White; nevertheless, we need to be careful in not placing Ellen on a pedestal which is too high from which she may fall.

If you assume that Ellen White’s writings are free from any imperfections, then you are placing her writings above the Bible. She told us that even the Bible contains some passages which were altered by copyists.

I have a question for you: When did the writings of Mrs.

White become doctrinally infallible: Before she copied what she borrowed from other authors or afterwards?

If you think that those Reformers were so inferior to Ellen

White, then why did she borrow from them so much? I am the product of her writings, but I do not place her writings above the Bible. Her writings must be subjected to the scrutiny of Scripture.

“Have you forgotten that or are you wanting to make the case against her possessing that gift and changing our understanding of how Inspiration works?”

Inspiration works on the thoughts of men. Men must struggle to find the best way to express what the Lord reveals to them. God is not revealed in Scripture as a writer. The Bible was not dictated by God, except when the actual words of the angel are quoted.

[Gustave]

UBBCode

Ok, this is odd - UBBCode, HTML and combined appears to be erasing my text...

...Is there anyone else that has noticed this?

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: testing123

UBBCode

Ok, this is odd - UBBCode, HTML and combined appears to be erasing my text...

...Is there anyone else that has noticed this?

Another test .

Somthing is wrong with the functionality of UBBCode....

...I've confirmed UBBCode, HTML is working fine on Crackberry, Catholic Answers & Christian Fourms.

...It's not here for some reason?

Anyone else experiencing this?

[Gustave]

Of course revelation of Truth is progressive but it is not progressively truthful. All of what Jesus spoke was predicated on His understanding of the OT ("that cannot be broken")"It is written", "You don't understand the Scriptures or the power of "God." Ect...ect...ect...ect...He never revealed, nor did the progressively Inspired Apostles, to us, that the OT contained the misguided, man-warped, and humanly entwined errors of the Holy Spirit led writers.NT truth never corrects OT doctrinal errors.Only self assured Bible skeptics do.

You do realize that you just made the whole point of my O.P. Doug?

...This was also the point of the Nicene Creed thread.

Luke 24,44

And he said unto them, THESE are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, THAT all things MUST be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, AND in the prophets, AND in the psalms, concerning me.

"MUST" Strong's G1163

1) concerning what Christ was DESTINED finally to undergo, his sufferings, death, resurrection, ascension

The Law of Moses was explicit that the Christ would NOT fail...

...The Prophets of the Old Testament were explicit that the Christ would not fail.

...The "Angel of the Lord" was explicit that the Christ would not fail.

...The Holy Spirit was explicit that the Christ would not fail.

...& Jesus Himself was explicit that He would not fail.

Yet Ellen White gloated that The Christ could have sinned and could have eternally ceased to exist...

...Then to add injury to insult she detailed about what else would have happened.

...IF The Christ WOULD HAVE FAILED.

Why do SDA's NOT, at the very least, conclude that Ellen White was a FALSE Prophet...

...If ONLY in this one area where she openly repudiates Christ?

This, right here IS THE REASON SDA's refuse to repeat the Creed in their churches....

...For the actual symbol of Nicaea would dispatch Ellen's status as a prophet.

...In a New York Second.

[phkrause]

Yet Ellen White gloated that The Christ could have sinned and could have eternally ceased to exist...

Gloated!!!!!!!! what a unreal statement!!!!! I have now lost all respect for anyone that can make a statement like this. If you disagree with her fine, than say that, but to say this garbage is really sad.

[Gustave]

Gloated!!!!!!!! what a unreal statement!!!!! I have now lost all respect for anyone that can make a statement like this. If you disagree with her fine, than say that, but to say this garbage is really sad.

Really? You agree that Jesus Himself said that EVERYTHING said about Him....

...In the Law ( 1st 5 Books of the Bible ) the Prophets & the Psalms.

..."HAD TO BE" or "MUST BE" 'fulfilled'.

...& that He told the Apostles THAT before He died on the cross.

You may wonder where these explicit "things" are at.

Genesis 3:15

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

Genesis 22,18

And in thy seed shall ALL the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Genesis 49,10

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Numbers 24,15

And he took up his parable, and said, Balaam the son of Beor hath said, and the man whose eyes are open hath said: He hath said, which heard the words of God, and knew the knowledge of the most High, which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open: I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth

Deut 18,17

And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Jesus said that EVERYTHING Moses said concerning Him HAD TO BE FULFILLED...

...And as Doug Yowell correctly asserted; "The Scriptures can't be broken".

...So HOW would ANY of the above happen IF Jesus sinned and lost His salvation pkrause???

You dare feign to be insulted!

I've already posted approximately 100 ( yes 100 ) explicit examples in Scripture...

...That explicitly state God would indeed save humanity.

...The question was ONLY "WHEN", it was never a matter of "if".

Jesus flat out said that everything said concerning Him in the Scriptures ( which existed at that time )...

..."Had to be" ( as in they MUST be ) FULFILLED.

...Jesus was crystal clear in that as was God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, the angels and Prophets.

Of course Ellen White and the anti-Trinitarian Pioneers promulgated something VASTLY different...

...& Ellen's grip on your mind forces you to feign being insulted.

...Instead of dealing with the reality of Ellen repudiating Christ in this area.

[John317]

John317 wrote:

Nic, the truth is that if Ellen White wrote as many false things are you claim she did, she was of necessity a false prophet. She couldn't have been a true prophet of God and make what you claim to be false statements. A genuine prophet of God doesn't need to be infallible.

You seem to have a false expectation of true prophets. Tell me: Was Martin Luther a false prophet? Did he have a true view about the Sabbath?

Martin Luther was not a genuine prophet of God. He was a great preacher and a great student of the Bible-- a great leader in the Reformation-- but no prophet. He never even claimed that God sent him messages for the church through dreams and visions.

[John317]

...Ellen White gloated that The Christ could have sinned and could have eternally ceased to exist...

What reason do you have for saying Ellen White was "gloating" when she made those statements?

[John317]

...

This, right here IS THE REASON SDA's refuse to repeat the Creed in their churches....

...For the actual symbol of Nicaea would dispatch Ellen's status as a prophet.

...In a New York Second.

SDAs wouldn't repeat the Creed even if we agreed with it. Creeds are not authoritative for doctrine.

The people who wrote the creeds were not inspired prophets of God.

The creeds can't judge a prophet of God. Prophets don't need to conform their messages to the creeds. The protestant Bible is the measuring stick of truth, not the creeds.

[John317]

[Gustave]

What reason do you have for saying Ellen White was "gloating" when she made those statements?

[Dr. Waite]

This comment and questions was placed in the "unpublished writings" thread. I will continue this in the trinity thread:

Originally Posted By: John317

Originally Posted By: Gibs

I do not care to use her writings to show there is not three Gods. Really I don't find she did either.

You are right here, Gibs. There is not three Gods. What there is is one God who is manifested as Three Persons. We worship one God.

You define "GOD" as a "unity of three co-eternal Persons" See http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/ No. 2.

Therefore, you worship a "unity" or a committee

Please, give me a "thus saith the LORD" which commands a person to worship of a "unity" or committee.

Did Jesus Christ worship a "unity" or a committee??

[Nic Samojluk]

John317 wrote:

“Martin Luther was not a genuine prophet of God. He was a great preacher and a great student of the Bible-- a great leader in the Reformation-- but no prophet. He never even claimed that God sent him messages for the church through dreams and visions.”

Did Ellen ever claim to be a prophet? Did she ever claim to be infallible? Did she ever say that we no longer need to search the Bible for new revelations of truth? Did all the Bible writers claim to have had visionary experience? Read what Ellen stated about Luther:

SPIRITUAL GIFTS. VOLUME 1, PAGE 120

“The angels of God moved upon Martin Luther, Melancthon, and others in different places, to thirst for the living testimony of the word of God. The enemy had come in like a flood, and the standard must be raised up against him. Luther was chosen to breast the storm, and stand up against the ire of a fallen church, and strengthen the few who were faithful to their holy profession. He was ever fearful of offending God. He tried through works to obtain the favor of God; but he was not satisfied until a gleam of light from heaven drove the darkness from his mind, and led him to trust, not in works, but in the merits of the blood of Christ; and to come to God for himself, not through popes nor confessors, but through Jesus Christ alone. O how precious was this knowledge to Luther! He prized this new and precious light which had dawned upon his dark understanding, and had driven away his superstition, higher than the richest earthly treasure. The word of God was new. Every thing was changed. The Book he had dreaded because he could not see beauty in it, was life, Life to him.”

TESTIMONIES FOR THE CHURCH VOLUME 1, PAGE 372

“Again, I was shown Martin Luther, whom God raised up to do a special work. How precious to him was the knowledge of truth revealed in the word of God! His mind was starving for something sure upon which to build his hope that God would be his Father, and heaven his home. The new and precious light which dawned upon him from the word of God was of priceless value, and he thought that if he went forth with it, he could convince the world. He stood up against the ire of a fallen church and strengthened those who with him were feasting upon the rich truths contained in the word of God. Luther was God’s chosen instrument to tear off the garb of hypocrisy from the papal church and expose her corruption. He raised his voice zealously and in the power of the Holy Spirit cried out against and rebuked the existing sins of the leaders of the people. Proclamations went forth to kill him wherever he might be found; he seemed left to the mercies of a superstitious people who were obedient to the head of the Roman Church. Yet he counted not his life dear unto himself”