RE: Father, Son & Holy Ghost....3 gods.

[Gustave]

Gustave, I've laid the proof here several times the scriptures deny a trinity. It only reveals Yahweh represented Himself through His Spirit, by His Name and His Presence in His Son the body prepared for Him to dwell in at bethlehem, Jesus Christ born of one of us, Mary. And 1 John is precisely right on, these 3 representations are of the one God.

[John317]

I had one of the larger posts I had ever done and my PC locked up...

...I will have to start all over John317 - I had a pile of SDA Pioneer statments.

...I will get on it.

While you are doing it, please post the quotes of Uriah Smith where he refers to "evolution" taking place within the Godhead. Also quote him where he says that Christ was the first created being.

See especially the writings of Loughborough, J.H. Waggoner, E.J. Waggoner, James White, Joseph Bates, J.N. Andrews, Prescott, and A.T. Jones. It is very important to take note of the dates of when they said things, because many of them changed between 1850 and the time of their death. They weren't static. Uriah Smith never did agree with Ellen White's statements on the Godhead, and neither did J.H. Waggoner. E. J. Waggoner had many disagreements with his father over the question of the Godhead. Prescott changed back and forth on the issue right up to 1920 and perhaps beyond.

[John317]

.... And 1 John is precisely right on, these 3 representations are of the one God.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

We cannot cut and choose and make of it what we want, 1 John 5:7 stands solid.

Do you want 1 John 5: 7 (KJV) as part of the Bible? I would think you would reject it. It clearly teaches the Trinity. I don't believe it was originally in John's letter, but my decision about that doesn't have anything to do with doctrine. I believe the verse teaches the truth.

It most definitely teaches that there are three living Persons in the eternal Godhead.

You seem to be confused in the matter of God being "one." The Bible makes it clear that God is "one" in unity, not "one" in person or personality. Ellen White supports this plainly in 8 T 269:

Quote:

The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either. They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. It is thus that God and Christ are one. {8T 269.4}

The relation between the Father and the Son, and the personality of both, are made plain in this scripture also:

"Thus speaketh Jehovah of hosts, saying,

Behold, the man whose name is the Branch:

And He shall grow up out of His place;

And He shall build the temple of Jehovah; . . .

And He shall bear the glory,

And shall sit and rule upon His throne;

And He shall be a priest upon His throne;

And the counsel of peace shall be between Them both."

Zechariah 6:12, 13, A. R. V.

[John317]

I know the SDA Church started to teach their heretical form of Trinitarianism after 1950...

This is false, Gustave. The Trinity was being taught in the SDA church long before 1950. By 1950, almost the entire SDA church was Trinitarian*. Remember that as far back as 1913, F.M. Wilcox wrote in the Review and Herald that the SDA Church believes in the Trinity. (I don't mean the Trinity doctrine as you find in the creeds or in the Roman Catholic Church.)

*See Jerry Moon's article, "Ellen White's Role in the Adventist Trinity Debate," presented at Andrews Univerity on April 13, 2001.

*Also see E.R. Gane's "The Arian or Anti-Trinitarian Views Presented in Seventh-day Adventist Literature and the Ellen G. White Answer" (M.A. thesis, Andrews University, 1963).

*Finally, also see Robert Olson's "Thoughts on the Deity and the Humanity of Christ." It is WDF #1475 in the Ellen G. White Estate, Loma Linda Branch Office.

[John317]

Gibs, I'd really like to know your thoughts and responses to the points I made in post#548236 on this thread, just a few posts above this one.

[Gibs]

No Gustave, there is not 3 distinct persons in the Godhead. The Holy Spirit is God, not another person, He is in the total of His Creation. God is Spirit! Jesus knows what he is saying, John 4:24, I've posted it many times.

Since God is Spirit it is no problem that He was in Christ. He dwelt in the body prepared for Him, and so was God with us, Emmanuel.

Divinity was covered with Humanity, only the humanity was another person but the one and only God dwelt in Him. Just as that Redeemer can dwell in us that we too may be able to overcome the world, sin and the devil and his angels. It is still the Spirit of the one and only God,YHWH.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Jesus could only state HE was the "first" if truly it was the Father dwelling in Him which is the case in surity.

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

The trinity doctrine will not be sold here, not buying by a long shot.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

Gibs, you are only repeating the same conclusions without dealing with the reasons and evidence for those conclusions.

Of course the Holy Spirit is God {Acts 5: 3,4}. Jesus Christ is God also {John 1:1; 20:28; Heb 1: 8, 10}. So is the Father {Eph. 1:17; 4:6; . Together they constitute one God {Matt. 28: 19; James 2:19}, just as Deut. 6: 4 says. We do not worship three Gods, or gods, but one God, who is manifested in three Persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Ellen White calls them "the eternal Godhead," which she defines as "the great Threefold power." According to Matt. 28: 19, these three divine Persons have one Name. That name can only be Yahweh, or God.

The Trinity, or the Three divine Persons of the heavenly trio, is shown clearly in the Scriptures in the following verses:

Jude 1:20-21

But you, beloved, build yourselves up in your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; [21] keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.

2 Cor. 13:14

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Matthew 28:19

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Matthew 3:16-17

And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; [17] and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."

NOTE: The above verses show that there are three distinct Persons who make up the eternal Godhead: (1)there's Christ being baptized, whom the Bible says plainly is God;(2) the Holy Spirit is manifested in the form of a dove, coming rest on Christ, as a sign that Christ is the Messiah; and (3) the Father speaks from heaven.

[Gibs]

John317,

You just don't seem to get it. There isn't a heavenly trio. The Holy Spirit and the Father, YHWH are one and the same. YHWH was in Christ, He wasn't another God. Jesus, the man, body prepared for Him to dwell in is a person, one of us and yet one of the Father. He, Jesus speaks to us but in reality it is the Father speaking. He speaks only the Father's will and He made it clear it was the Father in Him did the works.

YHWH just comes to us in three different ways, the same personage. These 3 are one and the same! This verse makes it clear but most want to make something out of it that it don't say.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Then others think to pick and choose what they can toss out of scripture. What other verse don't suit men, just give it the toss! Not on your life for me!

The trinity doctrine is another apostasy, another step back into the mother!

Never, never for this follower of Jesus Christ and the Father who is Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

There is a no sale here for that doctrine!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Enabled]

@John317 You asked:

Quote:

Gibs (and any other anti-Trinitarians on this Forum), I would like to know your thoughts about the following paragraphs:

Quote:

I think the Christ was called the Son of God by the virtue of the everlasting covenant and again, but in a literal sense due to His birth here on earth therefore the usage of the title "Son of God" prior to His birth is prolepsis and was fulfilled when He was born of the Spirit. (Luke 1:35). The Bible is clear on the eternality of God from everlasting to everlasting and it's clear that Christ is God (for God [Father] did not make another God [son] and then command not to have another god before Him) therefore we cannot say Christ became the Son of God by being born of the Father prior to His incarnation, but we also cannot say that the Godhead was role playing because Christ was literally the Son of God when He was conceived and justified in the Spirit (Luke 1:35, 1 Tim. 3:16, John 1:32-34)

Might I also ask you: who gave the Ten Commandments? Ex:19

Then might I ask who spoke with Israel on the mount?

And then who the God of Israel is?

Please answer from scripture or SOP relative to Father or Son. This will help me answer a little more clearly.

By the way I have never claimed to be anti-Trinitarian, although I don't subscribe to the Athenasian creed in its views of Divinity. I am an elder in the mainstream church and find my views are in agreement with the majority, I deliver sermons occasionally and teach an adult class regularly and have for 20 years.

I will respond as I am able.

[Gibs]

Joh317,

Let's get back to 1 Cor 15:24-28, I'll just post verse 28 here now.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

"That God may be all in all". What does that mean to you? After reading verses 24 through 28 you got to realize something. That is the Father hasn't been all in all since He brought forth His and our Redeemer from Himself. Now that verse 28 reveals that once again the Father is all in all, yes again. Yahshua now takes up a subject position, "that God may be all in all. As He was before anything else.

It is the end of needing a Redeemer, ever, for all eternity future.

Na 1:9 ¶ What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Not that I think you imagine anything against the LORD but to show sin is done, it will be no more ever and forever and forever.

I've brought these verses up in churches and the people would be dumbfounded and speechless after realizing what is being given to us to understand from those scriptures.

This Redeemer is who was in coucil with the Father before any thing else. He wasn't born, He wasn't created, the Father brought Him forth from Himself. Would we attempt to limit Him that He could not do that.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gustave]

No Gustave, there is not 3 distinct persons in the Godhead. The Holy Spirit is God, not another person, He is in the total of His Creation. God is Spirit! Jesus knows what he is saying, John 4:24, I've posted it many times.

[Enabled]

Silence is golden and so this thread appears to be.

Maybe someone would like to explain what she meant in the bold print (supplied)

Quote:

Christ brought men and women power to overcome. He came to this world in human form, to live a man amongst men. He assumed the liabilities of human nature, to be proved and tried. In His humanity He was a partaker of the divine nature. In His incarnation He gained in a new sense the title of the Son of God. Said the angel to Mary, "The power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). While the Son of a human being, He became the Son of God in a new sense. Thus He stood in our world--the Son of God, yet allied by birth to the human race. {1SM 226.2}

[Gibs]

Enabled,

Good post with a lot of meaning besides your question in bold.

Before Bethlehem and being born of Mary He was not born or a created being. To be born a son could only happen from among men whom God gave power to pro create.

Then Truly since He was conceived by God in the womb of Mary He was then born the Son of Mary and also the Son of God.

It was known by the men of old God would send a Redeemer and it appears Dan knew He would be called the Son of God.

Da 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Notice Dan says "four men loose" so he must have seen in vision what the Redeemer was to be.

However we know not that one has to be born a man to be a son but there is no reason to believe since God sent Him forth out of Himself in the beginning that He was a Son in a different sense than we comphrehend, being of the same substance and too being Eternal.

Good question and post Bro.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Enabled,

I noticed a post I hadn't caught you made before, you state,

"Might I also ask you: who gave the Ten Commandments? Ex:19

Then might I ask who spoke with Israel on the mount?

And then who the God of Israel is?

Please answer from scripture or SOP relative to Father or Son. This will help me answer a little more clearly.

By the way I have never claimed to be anti-Trinitarian, although I don't subscribe to the Athenasian creed in its views of Divinity. I am an elder in the mainstream church and find my views are in agreement with the majority, I deliver sermons occasionally and teach an adult class regularly and have for 20 years.

I will respond as I am able."

My answer is, Jesus was the creator of earth and the hosts and the God of the old testament. Please read,

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Now we will see that it is the Redeemer's whole project to take care of,

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Verse 28 reveals when it is accomplished He, Jesus becomes subject to the Father that He may be all in all. What a revelation!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Waite]

Jesus Christ will always be the son of the Father (both in the divine and in the human sense) who is the "only true God" and as the "son" He will always keep the 5th commandment just like He kept this commandment when he walked here on the earth.

[Gordon1]

To be born a son could only happen from among men whom God gave power to pro create.

Yes God gave this power - proof that He possesses this strength and authority Himself.

One cannot impart what one does not possess.

This power to procreate was imparted to mortals through God's Only Begotten Son, by whom God created the worlds and mankind.

[Gordon1]

It was known by the men of old God would send a Redeemer and it appears Dan knew He would be called the Son of God.

Da 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Notice Dan says "four men loose" so he must have seen in vision what the Redeemer was to be.

Daniel 3:25 is the spoken testimony of King Nebuchadnezzar, as recorded by Daniel.

How did a heathen King recognize God's Son, as the scriptures plainly state?

"How did that heathen king know what the Son of God was like? The Hebrew captives filling positions of trust in Babylon had in life and character represented before him the truth. When asked for a reason of their faith, they had given it without hesitation. Plainly and simply they had presented the principles of righteousness, thus teaching those around them of the God whom they worshiped. They had told of Christ, the Redeemer to come; and in the form of the fourth in the midst of the fire the king recognized the Son of God." Prophets & Kings 509.

[Gordon1]

The Redeemer was not 'called the Son of God' as a title or afterthought.

The Son of God offered to be man's Redeemer when in close counsel with His Father:

• "The fall of man filled all heaven with sorrow..."

  "..The Son of God, heaven’s glorious Commander, was touched with pity for the fallen race..."

  "..Christ would take upon Himself the guilt and shame of sin—sin so offensive to a holy God that it must separate the Father and His Son..."

  "..Before the Father He pleaded in the sinner’s behalf, while the host of heaven awaited the result..'the counsel of peace' (Zechariah 6:13)..."

  "..The plan of salvation had been laid before the creation of the earth; for Christ is “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13:8); yet it was a struggle, even with the King of the universe, to yield up His Son to die for the guilty race."

  Patriarchs & Prophets 63

[skyblue888]

Verses 10 & 12 of Isaiah 43 teach that "I am He," means "I am God."

John the Baptist said, "I am not He." Acts 13:25.

But Jesus Christ said to the Jews, "If you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." John 8:24.

In other words, if you do not believe that I am God in the highest sense, you will die in your sins.

Thus we read, "That all should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father." John 5:23.

One of of the titles given to Christ is "Everlasting Father" and even "The Almighty." Isaiah 9:6; Revelation 1:8.

sky

[Gibs]

Well Gordon1,

We know that God is Spirit and long before Bethlehem He brought forth of Himself our Redeemer. He wan't born or He wasn't a created being. Spirit beings are for real, we haven't had our eyes open to see them is all.

Yes the Redeemer was sent forth of the father to do the total of creation, including all the Hosts and all that is seen. Enoch states He made visible the things that were invisible. All is not made visible to us.

What we can know is only what is told us. He told Philip, "you've seen me you've seen the Father. Also He stated He was the First and the Last. So it can only be our Redeemer is of the Fathers Substance being also the pre-existent eternal one, claiming all the attributes of the Father. Then He is called Emmanuel, God with us in a human body prepared for Him to dwell in, Deity covered with humanity.

Then the Man was born at Bethlehem that this Redeemer Creator who once was in Heaven and Heaven was emptied of Him and He dwelt in this Body prepared for him. God is a Spirit remember so it is not too great a mystery. We then too may have this Redeemer dwelling in us to give us His power to overcome.

God the Father had a son born of Him at Bethlehem for sure, of the woman Mary.

Gordon, on King Nebuchadnezzar he saw four men, but Dan. wrote it and he only could know I would think that it was the Redeemer to come as a man. He would have been God at that time not covered with humanity so it appears to me he is given a vision of Him as one of us. God and angels are invisible to us unless our eyes are opened to see them. Neb. claimed to see a fouth man and not an Angel or higher. Yes I think the king knew of the comming Redeemer from the hebrews, but not that this was Him.

Before Bethlehem, was He actually a son? I doubt. He may have been named or called a son by projection of foreknowledge of God to men.

One thing I do know, is the fact God the Father is and was not limited as to what He needed to give of Himself for us the have of Him our Redeemer. We Know He Gave of Himself.

I know well that EGW called Him a Son before Bethlehem and I have too. The only thing is, a son is not the "FIRST", and He is the "FIRST" also, He said so Himself.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gustave]

An SDA from It is written television explaines the Trinity...

...And how it was affirmed by Synods and Councils of the Historic Christian Church.

http://www.itiswritten.com/television#episodes/1080

[Nic Samojluk]

Gibs wrote:

“Then Truly since He was conceived by God in the womb of Mary He was then born the Son of Mary and also the Son of God.”

Here is my question: Was Jesus the Son of God the Father or the Son of the Holy Spirit. If I accept the Trinity deoctrine, I must acknowledge the fact that Jesus was the Son of the HS.

On the other hand, if I believe what is clear from the Bible, then Jesus is the Son of God the Father whose presence is manifested in an invisible manner to us, since God the Father is Spirit and can be spiritually felt by us.

Read John 14. Jesus had physically lived with the disciples for three years. Then he told them he would leave them but that he would come back to live in them spiritually. He would be invisible, but present in them. He would not leave them orphans.

[Nic Samojluk]

Gibs wrote:

“Da 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”

Thanks for reminding us of this verse. This is evidence that Jesus Christ was the Son of God even before his incarnation.

Of course, I believe that this if figurative language. The Bible often uses the term son to denote preeminence.

[John317]

...& poor John317 does not realize yet that you can't accept the Trinity.

...While maintaining that Christ could have sinned.

This is misinformation, Gustave. The SDA church believes in the Trinity and at the same time believes Ellen White was a genuine prophet of God. We do both. Your problem is that you evidently think the Trinity doctrine MUST agree with the Roman Catholic doctrine.

[Gustave]

This is misinformation, Gustave. The SDA church believes in the Trinity and at the same time believes Ellen White was a genuine prophet of God.