RE: Father, Son & Holy Ghost....3 gods.

[Nic Samojluk]

Gustave wrote:

“What I'm telling you is that the Catholic Doctrine of the Trinity...

...Is also the Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, Eastern Orthodox, etc, etc, etc.

..."Doctrine of the Trinity".”

Yes, and this pagan dogma was borrowed from the Platonic philosophy based on dualism: the separate existence of the spirit from the body. The Bible tells us that God is Spirit, but Catholic theologians said: There is dichotomy between God and his Spirit.

The Bible talks about our human spirit, and the same Catholic theologians said: There is a dichotomy between our physical body and our spirit. Said human spirit enters our body at birth and survives our death.

How can Adventists accept this dichotomy? We inherited this erroneous dogma from the Catholic Church which in turn borrowed it from Plato.

[Nic Samojluk]

I am deleting a double posting!

[Gustave]

Gustave wrote:

“What I'm telling you is that the Catholic Doctrine of the Trinity...

...Is also the Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, Eastern Orthodox, etc, etc, etc.

..."Doctrine of the Trinity".”

Yes, and this pagan dogma was borrowed from the Platonic philosophy based on dualism: the separate existence of the spirit from the body. The Bible tells us that God is Spirit, but Catholic theologians said: There is dichotomy between God and his Spirit.

The Bible talks about our human spirit, and the same Catholic theologians said: There is a dichotomy between our physical body and our spirit. Said human spirit enters our body at birth and survives our death.

How can Adventists accept this dichotomy? We inherited this erroneous dogma from the Catholic Church which in turn borrowed it from Plato.

If you think that you don't know what the pagan philosophy was....

...And how the Chritian teaching is alien to it.

...Actually the SDA concept of the Trinity is what pagans were used to.

In any event no Catholic theologian I know of has ever suggested the human spirit...

...Enters the body at birth.

...Who told you this Nic?

[Nic Samojluk]

Gustave wrote:

“If you think that you don't know what the pagan philosophy was....

...And how the Chritian teaching is alien to it.

...Actually the SDA concept of the Trinity is what pagans were used to.

In any event no Catholic theologian I know of has ever suggested the human spirit...

...Enters the body at birth.

...Who told you this Nic?”

Plato taught that the body is a temporary abode for the soul. Catholics borrowed this theory from pagans. Adventists believe in the unity of body and soul. When a person dies, the only thing which remains is God’s memory of the dead. There is no surviving entity which can act in any fashion until the resurrection of the dead.

[Gustave]

Gustave wrote:

“If you think that you don't know what the pagan philosophy was....

...And how the Chritian teaching is alien to it.

...Actually the SDA concept of the Trinity is what pagans were used to.

In any event no Catholic theologian I know of has ever suggested the human spirit...

...Enters the body at birth.

...Who told you this Nic?”

Plato taught that the body is a temporary abode for the soul. Catholics borrowed this theory from pagans. Adventists believe in the unity of body and soul. When a person dies, the only thing which remains is God’s memory of the dead. There is no surviving entity which can act in any fashion until the resurrection of the dead.

The Historic Christian Church has always taught that man was created by God....

...To exist as a complete unit "body & soul".

...Therefore death is an un-natural state which has been passed down by gradations.

...From Adam, due to the Original Sin of Adam.

There is no argument about this.

What you are suggesting is that at death the spirit of the Christian person....

...Is from God wheras it does not know anything.

...And becomes as if it never existed until the General Resurrection.

...This is the teaching which is alien to Judaism and the Christian Church.

...It's a Johnny come lately doctrine rejected by both the Jews and Christians.

...Only accepted by the Sadducees which Christ rebuked as error.

[Nic Samojluk]

What you are suggesting is that at death the spirit of the Christian person....

...Is from God wheras it does not know anything.

...And becomes as if it never existed until the General Resurrection.

...This is the teaching which is alien to Judaism and the Christian Church.

...It's a Johnny come lately doctrine rejected by both the Jews and Christians.

...Only accepted by the Sadducees which Christ rebuked as error.

If you are interested in the biblical view of death as interpreted by Adventists I suggest you read the scholarly article authored by the late Samuelle Bacchiocchi. Here is the link:

The Biblical View of Death

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/immortality_resurrection/4.htm

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

What you are suggesting is that at death the spirit of the Christian person....

...Is from God wheras it does not know anything.

...And becomes as if it never existed until the General Resurrection.

...This is the teaching which is alien to Judaism and the Christian Church.

...It's a Johnny come lately doctrine rejected by both the Jews and Christians.

...Only accepted by the Sadducees which Christ rebuked as error.

If you are interested in the biblical view of death as interpreted by Adventists I suggest you read the scholarly article authored by the late Samuelle Bacchiocchi. Here is the link:

The Biblical View of Death

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/immortality_resurrection/4.htm

Christ was the "Son of God" and the "Son of Man" and was divine and human. Did his death both as the "Son of God" and as the "Son of Man" follow the biblical view of death as set forth in the above referenced scholarly article??

[troyjs]

Nic,

Nowhere does SCripture deny the use of the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The only positive teaching of how baptism is to be performed in the New Covenant, is in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

kind regards

ThoroughlyFurnished.blogspot.com

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

What you are suggesting is that at death the spirit of the Christian person....

...Is from God wheras it does not know anything.

...And becomes as if it never existed until the General Resurrection.

...This is the teaching which is alien to Judaism and the Christian Church.

...It's a Johnny come lately doctrine rejected by both the Jews and Christians.

...Only accepted by the Sadducees which Christ rebuked as error.

If you are interested in the biblical view of death as interpreted by Adventists I suggest you read the scholarly article authored by the late Samuelle Bacchiocchi. Here is the link:

The Biblical View of Death

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/immortality_resurrection/4.htm

I actually talked with Samuelle on a discussion forum about this very topic...

...Back in the early 90's.

In fact he sent me his book about it with his signature on it...

...Needless to say I didn't agree with him that his view was biblical.

[troyjs]

Gustave,

I agree with you that Bacchiocchi's views were unbiblical.

Infact, it is clear eisegesis to interpret Pauls words in regards his desire to leave his body, in order to be with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23

But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

Paul is tired and wished to have have his rest with Christ. The Biblical concept of 'being with Christ', is nowhere spoken or alluded to as being anything other than being glorified with Him in heaven. Ofcourse, this is why it is much better to be with Christ -- because we experience the joy of being in His presence. To say that Paul here is referring to some state of 'soul-sleep', is to read into the text something which is not there. That is called eisegesis.

kind regards

ThoroughlyFurnished.blogspot.com

[skyblue888]

"... having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better."

Unless he was hoping to be translated without seeing death as Elijah was, I believe the apostle here is simply saying that since death is a sleep, a state of total unconsciousness, that when he shall wake up in the resurrection at the coming of Christ it will be as though he had been with Jesus the moment he died.

sky

[skyblue888]

And, by the way, the Bible does not teach any such thing as 3 gods but One God in Three distinct Persons, being one in purpose and in thought.

sky

[Gibs]

I see the Bible teaches some different.

The Father in Jesus Christ, Jesus a distinct one of us, second person.

Then the Fathers Spirit which is Himself as He is Spirit, Read John 4:24. Not another person here!

If He would come to us in a visible presence, Himself directly we would be destroyed.

I see but two persons.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Now, He must be worshipped in Spirit as He is Spirit and that is the way He is with us and that through His Mediator Jesus Christ. So close your prayer don't ascend nowhere, as He is here!

Now, He must be worshipped in truth as nothing but the truth is acceptable.

We must get it right!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Nic Samojluk]

Christ was the "Son of God" and the "Son of Man" and was divine and human. Did his death both as the "Son of God" and as the "Son of Man" follow the biblical view of death as set forth in the above referenced scholarly article??

The biblical view of human death is that even the man'sthought perish. The biblical view of God is that he is eternal, with no beginning nor end, which eans that God can't die.

[Nic Samojluk]

Baptismal Formula in History and Scripture

“Every time the Bible records the name or formula associated with an actual baptism in the New Testament church, it describes the name Jesus. All five such accounts occur in the Book of Acts, the history book of the early church. It records that the following people were baptized in Jesus' name.

The Jews, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38).

The Samaritans. "They were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus' (Acts 8:16).

The Gentiles. "And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord" (Acts 10:48). (The earliest Greek manuscripts that we have say, "In the name of Jesus Christ," as do most versions today.) Though in verse 36 of the same chapter reads that, "Jesus is Lord of all". So, the change does not nullify the word by any means.

The disciples of John (re-baptized). "They were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" (Acts 19:5).

The Apostles Paul. "Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).

Moreover, the Epistles contain a number of references or allusions to baptism in Jesus' name. See Romans 6:3-4; I Corinthians 1:13; 6:11; Galatians 3:27 ; Colossians 2:12; James 2:7.

Luke 24:47 is a parallel verse to Matthew 28:19, and describes Jesus as saying that repentance and remission of sins-and baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38)-would be preached "in his name." Jesus is the only saving name, the name in which we receive remission of sins, the highest name made known to us, and the name which we are to say and do all things (Acts 4:12; 10:43; Philippians 2:9-11; Colossians 3:17).

Respected historical sources verify that the early Christian church did not use a threefold baptismal formula but invoked the name of Jesus in baptism well into the second and third centuries.

Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics (1951). II, 384, 389: "The formula used was "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" or some synonymous phrase; there is no evidence for the use of the trine name… The earliest form, represented in the Acts, was simple immersion… in water, the use of the name of the Lord, and the laying on of hands. To these were added, at various times and places which cannot be safely identified, (a) the trine name Justin)…"

Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible (1962), I 351: "The evidence… suggests that baptism in early Christianity was administered, not in the threefold name, but 'in the name of Jesus Christ' or 'in the name of the Lord Jesus.'"

Otto Heick, A History of Christian Thought (1965), I, 53: "At first baptism was administered in the name of Jesus, but gradually in the name of the Triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Hasting's Dictionary of the Bible (1898). I, 241: "[One explanation is that] the original form of words was "into the name of Jesus Christ" or 'the Lord Jesus,' Baptism into the name of the Trinity was a later development."

Williston Walker, A History of the Christian Church (1947), page 58: "The trinitarian baptismal formula … was displacing the older baptism in the name of Christ."

The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (1957), I, 435: "The New Testament knows only baptism in the name of Jesus … which still occurs even in the second and third centuries."

Canney's Encyclopedia of Religions (1970), page 53: "Persons were baptized at first 'in the name of Jesus Christ' … or 'in the name of the Lord Jesus'… Afterwards, with the development of the doctrine of the Trinity, they were baptized 'in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.'"

Encyclopedia Biblica (1899), I, 473: "It is natural to conclude that baptism was administered in the earliest times 'in the name of Jesus Christ,' or in that 'of the Lord Jesus.' This view is confirmed by the fact that the earliest forms of the baptismal confession appear to have been single-not triple, as was the later creed."

Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th ed. (1920), II 365: "The trinitarian formula and trine immersion were not uniformly used from the beginning… Bapti[sm] into the name of the Lord [was] the normal formula of the New Testament. In the 3rd century baptism in the name of Christ was still so widespread that Pope Stephen, in opposition to Cyprian of Carthage, declared it to be valid."

For additional information click on the following links:

1. http://www.zimbio.com/The+Acts+of+the+Ap...story+Scripture

2. http://7thday.web.officelive.com/matthew_28_19.aspx

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

Christ was the "Son of God" and the "Son of Man" and was divine and human. Did his death both as the "Son of God" and as the "Son of Man" follow the biblical view of death as set forth in the above referenced scholarly article??

The biblical view of human death is that even the man's thought perish. The biblical view of God is that he is eternal, with no beginning nor end, which eans that God can't die.

So if Jesus Christ is eternal and could not die, then how could have he laid down his immortal unborrowed life that he might take it up again?

Consider what was written in Signs of the Times April 8, 1897:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not" (John 1:1-5). The world did not see divinity in the humble Man of Nazareth. The only-begotten Son of the infinite God was in the world, and men knew Him not in His true character. {1SM 296.1}

"In him was life; and the life was the light of men" (John 1:4). It is not physical life that is here specified, but immortality, the life which is exclusively the property of God. The Word, who was with God, and who was God, had this life. Physical life is something which each individual receives. It is not eternal or immortal; for God, the Life-giver, takes it again. Man has no control over his life. But the life of Christ was unborrowed. No one can take this life from Him. "I lay it down of myself" (John 10: 18), He said. In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as His personal Saviour. "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17:3). This is the open fountain of life for the world. {1SM 296.2}

[Nic Samojluk]

Dr. Waite wrote:

“So if Jesus Christ is eternal and could not die, then how could have he laid down his immortal unborrowed life that he might take it up again?”

The answer is quite simple: As a human being, Jesus did not use his divine power to alleviate his physical and spiritual needs. He rather relied on the power supplied to him by his Father. This is why he prayed so earnestly, because he had temporarily set aside his divinity and conquered by his faith in his Father’s providential assistance and guidance.

Satan knew that he was divine and that he could turn the stones into bread. His temptation to use said power was great, but he determined to rely on his Father to provide for his needs.

In the Garden of Gethsemane, he could have used his divine power to avoid being taken as a prisoner, and while hanging on the cross his temptation to come down from the cross must have been great, but he had agreed to live as a man and avoid using his divine power to his personal advantage. He was duty bound to live on the basis of faith—the way we must live and fight the enemy.

[Dr. Waite]

Dr. Waite wrote:

“So if Jesus Christ is eternal and could not die, then how could have he laid down his immortal unborrowed life that he might take it up again?”

The answer is quite simple: As a human being, Jesus did not use his divine power to alleviate his physical and spiritual needs. He rather relied on the power supplied to him by his Father. This is why he prayed so earnestly, because he had temporarily set aside his divinity and conquered by his faith in his Father’s providential assistance and guidance.

Satan knew that he was divine and that he could turn the stones into bread. His temptation to use said power was great, but he determined to rely on his Father to provide for his needs.

In the Garden of Gethsemane, he could have used his divine power to avoid being taken as a prisoner, and while hanging on the cross his temptation to come down from the cross must have been great, but he had agreed to live as a man and avoid using his divine power to his personal advantage. He was duty bound to live on the basis of faith—the way we must live and fight the enemy.

You state: "he had temporarily set aside his divinity".

What Jesus Christ himself says is that he received this commandment from his Father that he could lay down his life and take it up again. See John 10:18

obviously, He was not eternal at the time he was dead.

[Gibs]

Jesus was only able to lay down His life, of a man, He in no way could lay down THE LIFE that was in Him, THE FATHER, you must see it was the Father in Him that He could say,

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

The Deity in Him was the Father in Him, can the Father be killed? Deity you must know did not cease to exist not for a moment and never ever will.

"Deity Did Not Die.--Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person--the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. Christ, the sinless One, will save every son and daughter of Adam who accepts the salvation proffered them, consenting to become the children of God. The Saviour has purchased the fallen race with His own blood." {5BC 1113.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Waite]

I believe that you misinterpret the term "Deity did not die" and saying Jesus Christ did not lay down his immortal unborrowed life (i.e. divinity) that he might take it up again.

When Christ died humanity (human race) did not die. But, the human, Jesus Christ, did die. And, when Christ died divinity (of which Christ's Father is the source) did not die. But, the blended divine- human person Jesus Christ did die.

Otherwise, if the blended divinity with humanity did not die it was only a human sacrifice and not a divine sacrifice.

When Jesus Christ says "I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore" Revelation 1:18 I believe that his blended divinity with humanity died and is now alive for evermore.

[Gustave]

"... having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better."

Unless he was hoping to be translated without seeing death as Elijah was, I believe the apostle here is simply saying that since death is a sleep, a state of total unconsciousness, that when he shall wake up in the resurrection at the coming of Christ it will be as though he had been with Jesus the moment he died.

sky

Not possible as St. Paul explicitly said that to be put to death in the flesh....

...Was to be WITH CHRIST.

Acts 7,59

And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

[Gibs]

Dr. Waite,

You and Allen Stump are in agreeance, but never can I agree. When we say of Him humanity in Him died we are not talking about the human race but only His inheritance of and being one of us. The Deity in Him was the Father in Him and death only came to the human part. The vestment of the Father in him was His power to lay down His human life and power to take it up again. Upon coming from the tomb He proclaimed over it, "I am the resurrection and the life". He just proved it.

EGW isn't wrong on this and I don't need her statement to know that. Her statement "Deity did not die" is not a very prolific statement in her writings. Stated in BC page 1113 paragraph 2 and paragraph 4, same page and as far as I know that is it, but paragraph 3 is also in, (Letter 280, 1904).

There is no contradicting statement I am for sure by her. His life as a man and being the only son of God satisfied the requirments for our salvation as Deity in no way shape or form can die, very impossible. The Father of a born one of men the blood is determined by the father and the same with Jesus Christ. When His blood was shed it was of the Father, but you see the Father neither has flesh or blood.

"This is a great mystery, a mystery that will not be fully, completely understood in all its greatness until the translation of the redeemed shall take place. Then the power and greatness and efficacy of the gift of God to man will be understood. But the enemy is determined that this gift shall be so mystified that it will become as nothingness." (Letter 280, 1904). {5BC 1113.3}

"When the voice of the angel was heard saying, "Thy Father calls thee," He who had said, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again," "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up," came forth from the grave to life that was in Himself. Deity did not die. Humanity died, but Christ now proclaims over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, "I am the resurrection, and the life." In His divinity Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. He declares that He had life in Himself to quicken whom He will." {5BC 1113.4}

Here's a verse that will shed some light, speaking of Christ,

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

The purchase was with the blood.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Waite]

SO IF JESUS CHRIST AS A DIVINE PERSON DID NOT DIE FROM FRIDAY AFTERNOON TO SUNDAY MORNING, WHERE WAS JESUS CHRIST AS A DIVINE PERSON?

Was he in hell or sinner's prison as some teach? Or was he is in heaven? Or some other place??

[Gibs]

Dr. Waite,

Jesus Christ was in the tomb or grave as any and all of us will be.

A verse in Romans sheds some light. And as one of us,

Ro 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

The difference being He is the Fathers Son, The Prince and until He has accomplished what He is sent to do The Father still must dwell in Him for He is to reign Supreme until all is accomplished with this sin problem.

The following is some verses that need close study to catch what happens when it is completed.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Then He becomes subject to the Father but yet our King and the Prince of the Father. So now the Father is All in All. The Father no longer has need to dwell in the Prince.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Waite]

QUOTE: "Dr. Waite, Jesus Christ was in the tomb or grave as any and all of us will be."

I asked this question: SO IF JESUS CHRIST AS A DIVINE PERSON DID NOT DIE FROM FRIDAY AFTERNOON TO SUNDAY MORNING, WHERE WAS JESUS CHRIST AS A DIVINE PERSON?

You did not answer my question. Probably, because your doctrinal position is NOT supported by the old and new testament scriptures.