RE: Father, Son & Holy Ghost....3 gods.

[Enabled]

@ Gibs

Often when the scripture says God we must realize that it can be a title or identification of divine value.

Quote:

1 Tim 3,16

God(Divinity) WAS manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Just as:

Quote:

Christ in us the hope of glory

doesn't make us out to be God's but a glimpse of the divine is seen in us.

Thus it is that Christ is the manifestation of God but not God (the Father) himself, yet the son of God and thus Divinity by inheritance, every thing that his Father is.

[Gibs]

The "us" is the Redeemer before Bethlehem whom the Father sent out of Himself. The Father gave of Himself, His Own Substance.

"The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes."--The Signs of the Times, Nov. 27, 1893, p. 54. {7ABC 437.3}

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

This is how Jesus could rightly proclaim,

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Dear folks, you can only have ONE FIRST! That means BEFORE any other.

And we read Isa., Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

There we have Yahweh King of Israel and Yahweh of Hosts and again, "the first and I am the last". Then "beside me there is no God".

They are ONE!,

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

The answer is, Yahweh King of Israel made of Himself His and our Redeemer, even before the body prepared Him.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

A very deep and in a way with our finite minds a complicated plan that we as unworthy as we are could all come and be saved.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gustave]

doesn't make us out to be God's but a glimpse of the divine is seen in us.

Then you would be in agreement with Ellen White and the SDA Pioneers...

...That Christ was a "glimps" of God & not God like the Father is God.

...& also that Christ had a conditional deity on loan from the "real God".

Under such a rubric Christ could possibily sin thus loosing the on loan deity....

...And then the Christ's grave and no other grave would have ever been opened.

...Then Lucifers charge against "God" would have been realized.

...And God would have went and sulked in some corner of the universe.

Yeah, it sounds like you are a Historic Adventist alright.

[Gustave]

Well Gibs, you are reflecting Ellen White & the SDA Pioneers with what you say....

...SDA's appear to be waking up to the fact Ellen was an anti-Trinitarian.

...However the official SDA Church appears to be doing what it can to maintain Ellen White as a prophet.

...And accept the Trinity doctrine where it can while protecting EGW's status as a prophet.

...An impossible task as we are witness to in both this and the Nicene Creed thread.

[John317]

Number 2: It would not matter if God Himself spoke to you and told you that He is a Unity of Three Co-eternal Persons. You have made up your mind. All scripture showing anything contrary to that is immediately rejected. We'll just have to agree to disagree, and I don't believe the salvation of either of us will be at stake no matter who ends up being right.

Yep, all true.

[John317]

Well Gibs, you are reflecting Ellen White & the SDA Pioneers with what you say....

...SDA's appear to be waking up to the fact Ellen was an anti-Trinitarian.

Absolutely false, Gustave. It just happens to benifit your agenda to depict SDA doctrines and Ellen White in that way.

The vast majority of the members agree with the official doctrines of the SDA Church as regards the Godhead/Trinity.

No one who is anti-Trinitarian could make the following EGW statements:

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin. What line can measure the depth of this love? God would make it impossible for man to say that He could have done more. With Christ He gave all the resources of heaven, that nothing might be wanting in the plan for man's uplifting. Here is love--the contemplation of which should fill the soul with inexpressible gratitude! Oh, what love, what matchless love!(Counsels On Health 222, 223)

You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life--to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling. You are to reveal that you are dead to sin; your life is hid with Christ in God. Hidden "with Christ in God,"--wonderful transformation. This is a most precious promise. When I feel oppressed, and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do,

-268-

I just call upon the three great Worthies, and say; You know I cannot do this work in my own strength. You must work in me, and by me and through me, sanctifying my tongue, sanctifying my spirit, sanctifying my words, and bringing me into a position where my spirit shall be susceptible to the movings of the Holy Spirit of God upon my mind and character. {7MR 267.2}

And this is the prayer that every one of us may offer. . . . {7MR 268.1}

The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}

The Eternal Dignitaries of the Trinity.--The eternal heavenly dignitaries--God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit--arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.--Manuscript 145, 1901. {Ev 616.4}

Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616.5}

The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God. . . .

617

{Ev 616.6}

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

The Power of God in the Third Person.--The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897) {Ev 617.2}

In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers.-- We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, --and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.--Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 51. (1905) {Ev 617.3}

Life, Original, Unborrowed, Underived.--Jesus declared, "I am the resurrection, and the life." In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. "He that hath the Son hath life." The divinity of Christ is the believer's assurance of eternal life.--The Desire of Ages, p. 530 (1898) {Ev 616.2}

Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God. . . . In speaking of His pre-existence, Christ carries the mind back through dateless ages. He assures us that there never was a time when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God. . . . {FLB 46.3}

His divine life could not be reckoned by human computation. The existence of Christ before His incarnation is not measured by figures. {FLB 46.4}

Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of heaven. He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by Him as His right. {FLB 46.5}

He was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. {FLB 46.6}

Jehovah, the eternal, self-existent, uncreated One, Himself the source and sustainer of all, is alone entitled to supreme reverence and worship.--Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 305. {7ABC 439.2}

Jehovah is the name given to Christ. "Behold, God is my salvation," writes the prophet Isaiah; "I will trust, and not be afraid; for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; He also is become my salvation. Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation. And in that day ye shall say, Praise the Lord, call upon His name, declare His doings among the people, make mention that His name is exalted." "In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah: We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks. Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in. Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on Thee, because he trusteth in Thee. Trust ye in the Lord forever; for in the Lord Jehovah is everlasting strength."--The Signs of the Times, May 3, 1899, p. 2. {7ABC 439.3}

The heavenly gates are again to be lifted up, and with ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands of holy ones, our saviour will come forth as King of Kings and Lord of lords. Jehovah Immanuel "shall be King over all the earth; in that day shall there be one Lord, and His name one."--Thoughts From the Mount of Blessing, p. 160. {7ABC 439.4}

This is the reward of all who follow Christ. Jehovah Emmanuel --He "in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge," in whom dwells "all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:3, 9)--to be brought into sympathy with Him, to know Him, to possess Him, as the heart opens more and more to receive His attributes; to know His love and power, to possess the unsearchable riches of Christ, to comprehend more and more "what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know

(440)

the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God" (Ephesians 3:18, 19)--"This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of Me, saith the Lord."--Ibid., p. 57. {7ABC 439.5}

Before the entrance of sin among the angels: Christ the Word, the only-begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father, --one in nature, in character, and in purpose,--the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. By Christ, the Father wrought in the creation of all heavenly beings.--The Great Controversy, p. 493. {7ABC 440.1}

(Be sure to compare this last paragraph with the first EGW paragraph in this post, Counsels On Health 222.)

[Gustave]

Absolutely false, Gustave. It just happens to benifit your agenda to depict SDA doctrines and Ellen White in that way.

The vast majority of the members agree with the official doctrines of the SDA Church as regards the Godhead/Trinity.

[Gibs]

Trinitarianism has no Biblical grounds. It is always easily determined it is the one God that is coming to us in one of the three ways He has set up to do.

The Holy Spirit is God, Jesus said so and I'm sure He would know.

The Father was in Christ the man, the body prepared Him. The union of Divinity and Man is a mystery. So you could rightly say Jesus was the second person but for sure it is the Father in Him makes him the one and only God that He too could righty say He is the Preexistent eternal one and the first and last. If it were not the Father in Him it couldn't be true.

But is the Holy Spirit another person? Well You tell me once you read Jesus's statement,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Once again James White and other SDA anti-Trinitarians used the word godhead....

...What does that prove?

It isn't merely the use of the word "Godhead" that's significant. It is how Ellen White defines it. She defines the Godhead as consisting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three are divine, living persons making up the "heavenly trio". Can you find anywhere that James White and other anti-Trinitarians said these things?

As far as James White is concerned, a close examination of his writings shows that he was slowly changing his views of the Godhead. By the time he died in 1881, he was about 10 years behind Ellen White's views. She was also undergoing changes as God showed her visions and as she studied. We need to remember that James White never saw the clearest statements by Ellen White because he died before she wrote them. She wrote most of them between 1895 and 1910.

[John317]

....The Father was in Christ the man, the body prepared Him. The union of Divinity and Man is a mystery.

The Father was in Christ in the sense that Christ and the Father are one. As Ellen White says, they are one in that they have the same nature, character, and purpose. They are one in unity, not one in person.

1 Tim. 3: 16 says that God was manifested in the flesh. Christ is God. Christ is Jehovah Immanuel. He is as much the Great I AM as the Father is. Christ is equal with the Father in every sense, "God essentially and in the highest sense."

[John317]

The Eternal Dignitaries of the Trinity.--The eternal heavenly dignitaries--God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit--arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.--Manuscript 145, 1901. {Ev 616.4}

Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616.5}

The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God. . . .

Originally Posted By: Gustave

I see I will have to post those Pioneer statments again.

It seems clear to me that you don't want the SDAs to believe in the Trinity. You apparently want the SDA church to return to the beliefs of the Pioneers on the nature of the Godhead.

The fact is, Gustave, that SDAs don't base our beliefs on the Pioneers. We know full well that the Pioneers were wrong in some of their beliefs, and the Trinity was one of those mistakes. I believe God led our Pioneers to reject the errors they found in the popular churches, and those errors included their mistaken views of the Trinity. If they had accepted those errors, the SDA Church wouldn't have been prepared to accept the biblical view of the Trinity. That's the view we hold today, views of the Trinity that are not based on Creeds or Church traditions but on the Scriptures, and in harmony with the Spirit of propehcy. Our Pioneers would never have wanted us today to base our beliefs on tradition; if alive, they would urge us to base our doctrines on the Bible, not on creeds or on human opinions.

[John317]

But perhaps there is a higher number of historic SDA's who frequent SDA forums...

...And that's why we have seen the number of people against the Trinity here?

...I don't know John.

I only know that on a Baptist or Catholic religious forum we wouldn't see what we have here...

...In the number of people who are against the Trinity Doctrine.

...Do you believe I'm being honest when I say this?

The Forums aren't representative of the SDA church. I've been attending SDA churches for over 50 years, and it is extremely rare to find anyone in the congregations who share or express the ideas you find here about the Trinity. In fact, I didn't know of any until I started coming on the forums in 2004.

My experience on the forums in the last 10 or so years leads me to believe that anti-Trinitarianism among SDAs is due to people accepting misinformation regarding both the Bible and the history of the Church. The same is true of Jehovah's Witnesses.

[Gustave]

It seems clear to me that you don't want the SDAs to believe in the Trinity. You apparently want the SDA church to return to the beliefs of the Pioneers on the nature of the Godhead.

That's not it at all - I WANT SDA's to believe in the Trinity...

...I believe it to be what holds everything ( literally ) together.

...I only want SDA's to be honest about what they believe in.

Think of it this way John, if I told you I believed in the Sabbath...

...And used terms to describe it just as you did.

...Then you found out I was doing multiple things on the Sabbath that according to SDAism violated it.

...You would say, I didn't believe in the Sabbath, but a mutation of it.

This is what I'm attempting to help SDA's see - they claim Jesus is VERY GOD....

...Then claim that He "could have" sinned and taken an eternal dirt nap.

...Even after it has been proven that God Himself PROMISED this would NEVER happen.

I wouldn't have a huge problem if SDA's said they didn't believe in the Trinity...

...It would be just like the JW's, Christadelphians or WWCOG 7th day.

...However SDA's say they do - they use familiar Trinitarian terms.

...After they have poured alien definitions into them.

No Trinitarian Church so called aside from SDA promulgates that Christ could have failed if he choose to!

...I only hope you can see what I'm saying - you could call the Methodists.

...Given that Ellen had to give the fundamental elements of the Trinity up to join up with SDA.

[John317]

No one who is anti-Trinitarian could make the following EGW statements:

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin. What line can measure the depth of this love? God would make it impossible for man to say that He could have done more. With Christ He gave all the resources of heaven, that nothing might be wanting in the plan for man's uplifting. Here is love--the contemplation of which should fill the soul with inexpressible gratitude! Oh, what love, what matchless love!(Counsels On Health 222, 223)

Originally Posted By: Gustave

The anti-Trinitarian Pioneers all made statements such as that...

Please quote and give the references of the SDA pioneers who said the things Ellen White said in the above statement. If so many made these kinds of statements, it should be easy to find them.

Ellen White says in the above statement that at the time of the Fall, the Holy Spirit was one of three divine persons who "gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption." This would mean that the Holy Spirit entered into the councils of God and helped plan the salvation of mankind. She also says here that "it was decided" in the council between the "heavenly trio" that Christ should come and offer Himself as a sacrifice.

Besides Ellen White, who among the early Adventist Pioneers (that were anti-Trinitarian) said these things?

[Enabled]

Greeting Gustave: I agree with you on some points but not all.

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Enabled

doesn't make us out to be God's but a glimpse of the divine is seen in us.

The following posted by Gustave

Quote:

#1-Then you would be in agreement with Ellen White and the SDA Pioneers...

#2-...That Christ was a "glimps" of God & not God like the Father is God.

#3-...& also that Christ had a conditional deity on loan from the "real God".

#1 – No cause not to be.

#2- That Christ was a glimpse (veiled in the flesh) of Divinity & not [the Father (Supreme God)] yet fully God (divine) having his source in God [the Father (Supreme God)], not created but begotten of the same substance before the world began. Not sure why the simplicity of this is so hard for people to grasp, I have three sons all of them of the same substance as myself, yet not created by me, but brought forth in my likeness and image yet created being of God.

#3- the only thing conditional about it was found in his acceptance of the condition of man through the incarnation, he was born again in the flesh that through his death and resurrection we might be born again of the spirit. Christ laid down his divine attributes and trusted in his Father to provide all his needs while in the flesh. The question is will we lay down the flesh and walk in the spirit? Satan says no, and die, Christ says live.

Gustave said:

Quote:

#4-Under such a rubric Christ could possibily sin thus loosing the on loan deity....

#5-...And then the Christ's grave and no other grave would have ever been opened.

#6...Then Lucifers charge against "God" would have been realized.

#7...And God would have went and sulked in some corner of the universe.

I respond:

#4- Agree only that he could have sinned and all would have been lost for he is forever united with mankind.

#5,6- Agreed.

#7- Careful my friend you stand on Holy Ground.

Gustave said:

Quote:

Yeah, it sounds like you are a Historic Adventist alright.

Not fussy about labels, they usually have baggage.

Regards in Christ our LORD and our God, first the God of Israel and Last the God of all mankind, prince of the universe and Son of the most High God, whom no man has seen nor heard, yet through the Son is made know to all men. There is but one God - the Father and one Lord - Jesus Christ. In this is found eternal life. John 17:3 Amen!

[John317]

No Trinitarian Church so called aside from SDA promulgates that Christ could have failed if he choose to!

OK, so the SDA church is the first and only church to do that. We believe it is in harmony with the Bible, and whether other churches teach it or believe it is not important. You believe as you do because of the creeds, church councils, and church tradition. We don't believe those are a sound basis for doctrine. We would like to be in harmony with other Christians, but we don't believe it would be right to give up what the Bible teaches in order to agree with them. The Holy Spirit is not in that kind of unity. It has to be unity based on Bible truth.

[John317]

Based on all the posts you've written on the topic, Gustave, what bothers you evidently is that SDAs have the audacity to claim to believe in the Trinity, yet disagree with the creeds and with your views of the Trinity and of God.

We're far more concerned with teaching in harmony with the protestant Bible than with whether we agree with either creeds or human opinions. In fact, to be completely frank with you, it doesn't even occur to SDAs to find harmony with the creeds because the creeds aren't a legitimate doctrinal authority in our view.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

It seems clear to me that you don't want the SDAs to believe in the Trinity. You apparently want the SDA church to return to the beliefs of the Pioneers on the nature of the Godhead.

That's not it at all - I WANT SDA's to believe in the Trinity...

...I believe it to be what holds everything ( literally ) together.

...I only want SDA's to be honest about what they believe in.

Honest according to whose opinion? The important thing is that we are honest according to what we believe God wants and teaches in His word. That's really all that matters.

[John317]

Gibs (and any other anti-Trinitarians on this Forum), I would like to know your thoughts about the following paragraphs:

Quote:

I think the Christ was called the Son of God by the virtue of the everlasting covenant and again, but in a literal sense due to His birth here on earth therefore the usage of the title "Son of God" prior to His birth is prolepsis and was fulfilled when He was born of the Spirit. (Luke 1:35). The Bible is clear on the eternality of God from everlasting to everlasting and it's clear that Christ is God (for God [Father] did not make another God [son] and then command not to have another god before Him) therefore we cannot say Christ became the Son of God by being born of the Father prior to His incarnation, but we also cannot say that the Godhead was role playing because Christ was literally the Son of God when He was conceived and justified in the Spirit (Luke 1:35, 1 Tim. 3:16, John 1:32-34)

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Christ is the literal Son of God from eternity by the virtue of the eternality of the covenant which is also from everlasting and this was carried out when Christ was born of the Spirit of God.

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Especially in the quote from above & from Heb.1, which deserves being repeated again:> "

“[4] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by INHERITANCE >OBTAINED< A MORE EXCELLENT NAME THAN THEY.

[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, THOU ART >MY SON<, >THIS DAY< HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE? And again, I >will be< to him a Father, and >he shall be< to me a Son?” (Heb. 1:4, 5)

Those verses quoted in Hebrews by Christ's chosen Apostle Paul, shows to be prophetic verses from the Old Testament Scriptures they originated in:> Acts 13:32-38(also used & quoted by Paul even there) but were from Ps.2:7 & 2Sam.7:14. They as shown & interpreted by Paul, thereby prove to be Prophetic Scriptures, speaking of the future from when they were first written: prophesying as to when Jesus would become the Begotten Son. Talk to Paul, not me, as he's the one who was Inspired of God to write what is there. Here's the verses of Divine Interpretation as shown us by Paul & to be compared with the ones in Hebrews, with Acts 13:>

32 "And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, >in that he hath >raised up Jesus again<; >>as<< >it is also written in the second psalm<, 'Thou art my Son, >this day have I begotten thee'<.

34 And >as concerning that he raised him up from the dead<, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:"

AND:> 2Sam.7:14 >"I >will be< his father, and he >shall be< my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

That's a Prophecy looking forward to Jesus & in the future tense:> "It IS Written", clearly, when you go see all those verses, & with Paul's showing their true meaning. Have Peace. I know I do.

Quote:

...you both have answered an important objection that anti-Trinitarians often bring up, that Christ was only "role playing" if he was not literally born of God in heaven. You've both shown that there was no role-playing but that the eternity of Christ's being "the Son of God" is based on the promise of the everlasting covenant that Christ would become the literal Begotten when He was conceived and justified in the Spirit (Luke 1:35, 1 Tim. 3:16, John 1:32-34).

[phkrause]

Honest according to whose opinion? The important thing is that we are honest according to what we believe God wants and teaches in His word. That's really all that matters.

[Enabled]

@ John 317 please consider the following as the word is interpreted according to the word. As you are understood better by those close to you when you speak better than those that don't know you so is the spirit of prophecy. Let Ellen interpret herself!

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In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. "He that hath the Son hath life." 1 John 5:12. The divinity of Christ is the believer's assurance of eternal life. {FLB 47.2}

Quote:

Jesus declared, "I am the resurrection, and the life." In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. "He that hath the Son hath life." 1 John 5:12. The divinity of Christ is the believer's assurance of eternal life. "He that believeth in Me," said Jesus, "though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?" Christ here looks forward to the time of His second coming. Then the righteous dead shall be raised incorruptible, and the living righteous shall be translated to heaven without seeing death. The miracle which Christ was about to perform, in raising Lazarus from the dead, would represent the resurrection of all the righteous dead. By His word and His works He declared Himself the Author of the resurrection. He who Himself was soon to die upon the cross stood with the keys of death, a conqueror of the grave, and asserted His right and power to give eternal life. {DA 530.3}

Let her define what she means:

Quote:

"In him was life; and the life was the light of men" (John 1:4). It is not physical life that is here specified, but immortality, the life which is exclusively the property of God. The Word, who was with God, and who was God, had this life. Physical life is something which each individual receives. It is not eternal or immortal; for God, the Life-giver, takes it again. Man has no control over his life. But the life of Christ was unborrowed. No one can take this life from Him. "I lay it down of myself" (John 10: 18), He said. In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as His personal Saviour. "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17:3). This is the open fountain of life for the world. {1SM 296.2}

Quote:

“In Him [Christ] was life, original, unborrowed, underived. This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as His personal Saviour. "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17:3). This is the open fountain of life for the world.” {EGW, 1SM 296, 297}

According to this statement, original, unborrowed, underived life can be given. It will be given as a free gift to those who believe. This is in harmony with the words of Christ when He said that God the Father gave Him that life (original, unborrowed, underived life):

Quote:

“For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself” John 5:26

Have a great day

[John317]

Let her define what she means:

"In him was life; and the life was the light of men" (John 1:4). It is not physical life that is here specified, but immortality, the life which is exclusively the property of God. The Word, who was with God, and who was God, had this life. Physical life is something which each individual receives. It is not eternal or immortal; for God, the Life-giver, takes it again. Man has no control over his life. But the life of Christ was unborrowed. No one can take this life from Him. "I lay it down of myself" (John 10: 18), He said. In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as His personal Saviour. "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17:3). This is the open fountain of life for the world. {1SM 296.2}

In Him [Christ] was life, original, unborrowed, underived. This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as His personal Saviour. "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17:3). This is the open fountain of life for the world. {EGW, 1SM 296, 297}

According to this statement, original, unborrowed, underived life can be given. It will be given as a free gift to those who believe. This is in harmony with the words of Christ when He said that God the Father gave Him that life (original, unborrowed, underived life):

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself John 5:26

Yes, Christ will one day give us unending life, for sure.

But that passage isn't saying that we will ever have "original, unborrowed, underived life." Notice what she says, "It is not physical life that is here specified, but immortality, the life which is exclusively the property of God. The Word, who was with God, and who was God, had this life. Physical life is something which each individual receives. It is not eternal or immortal; for God, the Life-giver, takes it again. Man has no control over his life."

She's talking here about God giving us the gift of immortality. There's a huge difference between being immortal and having "original, unborrowed, underived" life. Having original life means having life that you can give to others. Only God can do that. It doesn't mean that the one who receives life from God has original or underived life. How can one derive underived life? That's like saying one can be given life that has no beginning.

John 5: 26 is referring to the Son of man after He was born as a man on this earth. Christ isn't saying the Father gave Him life in heaven. The pre-incarnate Christ was self-existent. Humans will one day be immortal, but we will never be self-existent. Only God is self-existent.

All life originated with God the Father and God the Son. That is why God is able to create life. Humans will never be able to create life.

[Gibs]

Trinitarians need to fuss with these scriptures a little,

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

What does especially that last verse tell you?

As far as having to take a choice of what the pioneers held on this subject and the church after 1950 it would be no hard choice, it would be the pioneers. Follow a chruch falling in apostasy, no way! Falling away in the most reformed movement and the world,

2Th 2:3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Some SDA's take the pope to be the son of perdition and that apostate system began the trinity doctrine. It is not a Biblical truth!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gustave]

Gibs & Enabled - you are both wrong for rejecting the Trinity....

...& poor John317 does not realize yet that you can't accept the Trinity.

...While maintaining that Christ could have sinned.

I had one of the larger posts I had ever done and my PC locked up...

...I will have to start all over John317 - I had a pile of SDA Pioneer statments.

...I will get on it.

[Gibs]

Gustave, I've laid the proof here several times the scriptures deny a trinity. It only reveals Yahweh represented Himself through His Spirit, by His Name and His Presence in His Son the body prepared for Him to dwell in at bethlehem, Jesus Christ born of one of us, Mary. And 1 John is precisely right on, these 3 representations are of the one God.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

We cannot cut and choose and make of it what we want, 1 John 5:7 stands solid.

The trinity doctrine came in when Christ's church He and the Apostles started became apostate and that is one of the apostasies. SDA's took it up after 1950.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.