RE: Father, Son & Holy Ghost....3 gods.

[Gustave]

Hoe can finite mind understand an infinite God?

We may think we are all that and more, but we are like ants trying to explain to other ants how supercomputers function.

What you've just said is truth - we simply can't fathom our Infinite God...

...What we do have is iron clad truth that God is in control.

...& that God does what God says He is going to do.

God said He would come and would save....

...God said this was ordained through Christ prior to the world being created.

...Therefore Historic Creedal Christians let it rest there.

...And don't introduce Arian rubrics which suggest God might not have been able to reconcile man to Himself.

[John317]

Ellen White also states that Lucifer occupied the third position of honor in heaven before his fall. My question: Did the Holy Spirit occupy the fourth position?

I cannot find any evidence that the holy spirit occupied the 4th position. Can YOU?

Ellen White was talking about the angels, not about the Holy Spirit. The context of the statement you're referring to is that Lucifer wondered why he couldn't also enter the councils of God. The answer is that Lucifer was next to Christ, not equal with Christ. But of course the Holy Spirit was there and was able to enter into the councils of God. The Holy Spirit is a part of the Godhead, "the Third Person of the Godhead."

Ellen White says this in CH 222 about the Holy Spirit:

Quote:

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin. What line can measure the depth of this love? God would make it impossible for man to say that He could have done more. With Christ He gave all the resources of heaven, that nothing might be wanting in the plan for man's uplifting.

Notice how she defines the eternal Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Notice also that the Holy Spirit is able to feel pity and able to give Himself to planning and working out the plan of redemption. There's no question, then, that the Holy Spirit was a part of the councils of God. The propohet of God calls them "the great Threefold power of heaven."

[Gustave]

Before you reply, you need to understand what was said! Plain ranting does not imply that you have a point. But it may impress you!

[John317]

...This issue is about "questioning God's ability" to actually do what He says He will do.

The issue is not God's power. Everyone in the universe knows God has the power to do whatever He wants. Satan doesn't challenge God's power. That is not the issue and never was the issue. The issue is freedom. Was Christ free to choose? If so, then He could have chosen other than the way He did. Otherwise, He wasn't truly free. The death of Christ on the cross guarantees people's freedom to accept or reject God's plan for their lives. Jesus of Nazareth Himself had that same freedom.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...This issue is about "questioning God's ability" to actually do what He says He will do.

The issue is not God's power. Everyone in the universe knows God has the power to do whatever He wants. Satan doesn't challenge God's power. That is not the issue and never was the issue. The issue is freedom. Was Christ free to choose? If so, then He could have chosen other than the way He did. Otherwise, He wasn't truly free. The death of Christ on the cross guarantees people's freedom to accept or reject God's plan for their lives. Jesus of Nazareth Himself had that same freedom.

Exactly,

[John317]

Yes, Jesus Christ is God. See Hebrews 1:8

And Hebrews 1: 10, where it says that Christ is Jehovah who made the world.

There is only one God, right?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

However, Jesus is not God in the sense His Father is God.

Christ is God by nature, the same as the Father is God by nature. Christ and the Father share the same essence, or substance. That's the message of John 1: 1 and Hebrews 1: 3.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

Jesus as God has a God that he calls "my God"

See Matthew 27:46, John 20:17, Rev. 3:12

Of course Jesus has a God. Jesus is a man. All men have a God. Jesus is our example.

The point is, though, that before He became a man, Christ did not have a God. When He was born on this earth, Christ was totally dependent on the Father for everything. He wasn't totally dependent on the Father before He was born. He made everything in the whole universe and He upholds all things by the word of His power.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

But, the Father of Jesus does NOT have a God that he calls "my God"

Of course not. That's becausse the Father was never a man, and Jesus is.

[Guest]

quote:

Ellen White also states that Lucifer occupied the third position of honor in heaven before his fall. My question: Did the Holy Spirit occupy the fourth position?

I cannot find any evidence that the holy spirit occupied the 4th position. Can YOU?

There is no mention of the Holy Spirit holding ANY position in heaven, either in the Bible, or the writings of EGW.

Read about the meeting between the Father and the Son about the plan of redmption. There is no mention of the Holy Spirit being involved. In fact there is no mention of the HS at all.

There is nothing written in the Bible or the SOP, that places the Holy Spirit in heaven at all. When the Father and Son are together, there is never any mention of the Spirit being there with them.

I then saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, "He is in close converse with His Father." The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a loveliness which words cannot describe. {EW 126}

God is omnipresent, therefore He IS a spirit.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit

[Gibs]

Golly, RLH since God is a Spirit then where He is, He, His Spirit is there. Primarily it makes God out to be Spirit. Yes no doubt He can and does exibit a Presence which we can not live in in our present state.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

I don't know if Enoch would be an exception of that or not but his writings indicate he was made able to be in His Presence.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest DennisKean]

Quote:

Yes Jesus is God for the simple reason the Father was in Him. He said so and so did the apostle.

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God, that is the Father was in Christ. Who else is left?

Keep this in mind as you say the above, Gibs. " Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?" because you are trying to say that since the Father is in the Savior that there is only one God. The Savior, therefore is God only because the Father is in Him. But the Savior did say that He is in the Father as well. So that theory is not working, otherwise we all could call ourselves God according to that theory, if we start becoming perfect!

What is implied by being in someone is to be loved by someone. When you love someone that someone is in your heart! There is no mysticism in that comment other than love.

Dennis

[Gustave]

The issue is not God's power. Everyone in the universe knows God has the power to do whatever He wants.

[Nic Samojluk]

John317 wrote:

“Ellen White was talking about the angels, not about the Holy Spirit.”

John, you seem to be modifying the true meaning of what Ellen

White wrote. Read what she wrote with care:

“Sin originated with him, who, next to Christ, had been most honored of God and was highest among the inhabitants of heaven. Lucifer, “son of the morning,” (Isaiah 14:12) was holy and undefiled. [From Eternity Past, Page 10]”

Notice that Ellen was talking about the “inhabitants of heaven” and not about the angels. Are you suggesting that God and the Son of

God are excluded from the “inhabitants” of heaven?

Lucifer is identified by Ellen White as the “most honored” “next to Christ” among the inhabitants of heaven. There is no wiggling room here. Lucifer is described here as holding the third position of honor in heaven next to Christ.

It follows then, that if there is someone else as a member of the Deity, then it must occupy—not the third—but the fourth position of honor in heaven.

“The Holy Spirit is a part of the Godhead, "the Third Person of the Godhead." Ellen White says this in CH 222 about the Holy Spirit:

“The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption.”

Notice how she defines the eternal Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

We know that Ellen White did believed that the Holy Spirit was also a member of the Deity. This is precisely the problem: She contradicts herself by telling us both that the third position of honor was held by two distinct individuals: Lucifer and the Holy Spirit, which is a logical impossibility.

I conclude that, due to the fact that Ellen borrowed so much from other authors, she probably never realized that she was holding two contradictory beliefs.

I want to clarify that I do have her red books, I have read them, and I do believe that she was God’s instrument in building the Adventist movement. Nevertheless, I do not believe that her writings are above the Bible, nor do I believe that she was infallible. We must submit her writings to Scripture. There is no other option!

[Nic Samojluk]

The issue is not God's power. Everyone in the universe knows God has the power to do whatever He wants. Satan doesn't challenge God's power. That is not the issue and never was the issue. The issue is freedom. Was Christ free to choose? If so, then He could have chosen other than the way He did. Otherwise, He wasn't truly free. The death of Christ on the cross guarantees people's freedom to accept or reject God's plan for their lives. Jesus of Nazareth Himself had that same freedom.

Well said! I am with you on this.

[Gibs]

Yes, yes, freedom is it. When we have total freedom within His will for us, then we have become free men and women in Jesus Christ. That is what it means to be free men and women in Christ.

When we have grown to the place there is nothing we want to do outside of His will we are in the right way and stay in it all the way, and He in us we are more than conquerors.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

quote:

Ellen White also states that Lucifer occupied the third position of honor in heaven before his fall. My question: Did the Holy Spirit occupy the fourth position?

I cannot find any evidence that the holy spirit occupied the 4th position. Can YOU?

There is no mention of the Holy Spirit holding ANY position in heaven, either in the Bible, or the writings of EGW.

Read about the meeting between the Father and the Son about the plan of redmption. There is no mention of the Holy Spirit being involved. In fact there is no mention of the HS at all.

There is nothing written in the Bible or the SOP, that places the Holy Spirit in heaven at all. When the Father and Son are together, there is never any mention of the Spirit being there with them.

Here's a quote that places the Holy Spirit in heaven and in council with the Father and the Son at the time of the Fall of the human race:

Quote:

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin. What line can measure the depth of this love? God would make it impossible for man to say that He could have done more. With Christ He gave all the resources of heaven, that nothing might be wanting in the plan for man's uplifting. Here is love--the contemplation

223

of which should fill the soul with inexpressible gratitude! Oh, what love, what matchless love! The contemplation of this love will cleanse the soul from all selfishness. It will lead the disciple to deny self, take up the cross, and follow the Redeemer. {CH 222.2}

Notice in the above that the Holy Spirit feels pity, give Himself to the working out of the plan of redemption and helps in deciding that Christ should give Himself an offering for sin. Notice also that Ellen White defines the "Godhead" as consisting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Look at this SoP quote:

Quote:

Those who unite with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, who show by their lives that they are no longer following the course they followed before they united with these divine instrumentalities, will receive wisdom from above. They will not depend upon human wisdom. In order to deal righteously with the world, as members of the royal family, children of the heavenly King, Christians must feel their need of a power which comes only from the heavenly agencies that have pledged themselves to work in man's behalf. {ST, June 19, 1901 par. 7}

After we have formed a union with the great threefold power, we shall regard our duty toward the members of God's family with a sacred awe. We shall seek to answer the prayer, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven," by living pure, sanctified lives, showing the world how the will of God is done in heaven. {ST, June 19, 1901 par. 8}

Quote:

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, powers infinite and omniscient, receive those who truly enter into covenant relation with God. They are present at every baptism, to receive the candidates who have renounced the world and have received Christ into the soul temple. {God's Amazing Grace, chapter 135}

Notice that the Holy Spirit is a power infinite and omniscient and receives those who truly enter into covenant with God.

Quote:

When we have accepted Christ, and in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit have pledged ourselves to serve God, the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit--the three dignitaries and powers of heaven--pledge themselves that every facility shall be given to us if we carry out our baptismal vows to "come out from among them, and be . . . separate, . . . and touch not the unclean thing." When we are true to our vows, He says, "I will receive you" (MS 85, 1901). {6BC 1075.8}

Notice that the prophet of God refers to the Holy Spirit as one of three dignitaries and powers of heaven, and she says that the Holy Spirit is one of Three who pledge themselves. A non-person cannot pledge himself, can he? Yet Ellen White clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit pledges Himself and is present at every baptism, to "receive" the candidates.

[John317]

Ellen White says this in CH 222 about the Holy Spirit:

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption.

Notice how she defines the eternal Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

We know that Ellen White did believed that the Holy Spirit was also a member of the Deity. This is precisely the problem: She contradicts herself by telling us both that the third position of honor was held by two distinct individuals: Lucifer and the Holy Spirit, which is a logical impossibility.

I conclude that, due to the fact that Ellen borrowed so much from other authors, she probably never realized that she was holding two contradictory beliefs.

You have to be kidding, Nic. Unfortunately I'm sure you aren't.

Richard, I would really like to know what you think on this question. Do you agree with Nic here?

Is Ellen White contradicting herself? How do you explain it?

[John317]

...I want to clarify that I do have her red books, I have read them, and I do believe that she was God's instrument in building the Adventist movement. Nevertheless, I do not believe that her writings are above the Bible, nor do I believe that she was infallible. We must submit her writings to Scripture. There is no other option!

Nic, the truth is that if Ellen White wrote as many false things are you claim she did, she was of necessity a false prophet. She couldn't have been a true prophet of God and make what you claim to be false statements. A genuine prophet of God doesn't need to be infallible. The Bible writers weren't infallible men, either, yet they didn't write false teachings, which you claim Ellen White did. If she did, then we can't trust her. It is that simple. Of course her writings and her prophetic ministry must be judged by the Bible. But when we do that, we have to make up our minds whether Ellen White's work passes the test. If she writes false teachings and false prophecies, then she is a false prophet.

Ellen White never suggested that people are free to pick and choose what they want to believe of her writings and reject the rest. She said to study and compare her writings with the Bible, and if they pass the test, then accept them as from God. If she doesn't pass the Bible tests, reject her. But don't think you can have it both ways. She said herself that she is either of God or of the Devil.

Accepting her as a genuine prophet of God and believing her writings doesn't mean she is above the Bible. She is not.

Many people have been God's instruments for building up the Adventist Movement, but only one was a true prophet of God in the biblical sense of the term.

[John317]

John317 wrote:

Ellen White was talking about the angels, not about the Holy Spirit.

John, you seem to be modifying the true meaning of what Ellen

White wrote. Read what she wrote with care:

Sin originated with him, who, next to Christ, had been most honored of God and was highest among the inhabitants of heaven. Lucifer, son of the morning, (Isaiah 14:12) was holy and undefiled. [From Eternity Past, Page 10]

Notice that Ellen was talking about the inhabitants of heaven and not about the angels. Are you suggesting that God and the Son of

God are excluded from the inhabitants of heaven?

Lucifer is identified by Ellen White as the most honored next to Christ among the inhabitants of heaven. There is no wiggling room here. Lucifer is described here as holding the third position of honor in heaven next to Christ.

It follows then, that if there is someone else as a member of the Deity, then it must occupy not the third but the fourth position of honor in heaven.

You are clearly misunderstanding Ellen White because she obviously is not saying that Lucifer is equal or above the Third Person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.

I'm afraid, Nic, it is you who are not reading Ellen White's writings carefully enough. Notice the following paragraphs and observe that the context has to do with Lucifer's envy of Christ:

Quote:

So long as all created beings acknowledged the allegiance of love, there was perfect harmony throughout the universe of God. It was the joy of the heavenly host to fulfill the purpose of their Creator. They delighted in reflecting His glory and showing forth His praise. And while love to God was supreme, love for one another was confiding and unselfish. There was no note of discord to mar the celestial harmonies. But a change came over this happy state. There was one who perverted the freedom that God had granted to His creatures. Sin originated with him who, next to Christ, had been most honored of God and was highest in power and glory among the inhabitants of heaven. Lucifer, “son of the morning,” was first of the covering cherubs, holy and undefiled. He stood in the presence of the great Creator, and the ceaseless beams of glory enshrouding the eternal God rested upon him. . . . {CTr 9.2}

Little by little Lucifer came to indulge the desire for self-exaltation. . . . Though all his glory was from God, this mighty angel came to regard it as pertaining to himself. Not content with his position, though honored above the heavenly host, he ventured to covet homage due alone to the Creator. Instead of seeking to make God supreme in the affections and allegiance of all created beings, it was his endeavor to secure their service and loyalty to himself. And coveting the glory with which the infinite Father had invested His Son, this prince of angels aspired to power that was the prerogative of Christ alone. . . {CTr 9.3}

To dispute the supremacy of the Son of God, thus impeaching the wisdom and love of the Creator, had become the purpose of this prince of angels. To this object he was about to bend the energies of that master mind, which, next to Christ’s, was first among the hosts of God. But He who would have the will of all His creatures free left none unguarded to the bewildering sophistry by which rebellion would seek to justify itself. Before the great contest should open, all were to have a clear presentation of His will, whose wisdom and goodness were the spring of all their joy.—Patriarchs and Prophets, pp. 35-37. {CTr 9.4}

It's absurd to claim that Ellen White's writings show that there was no Holy Spirit at the time of Lucifer's rebellion or that Lucifer was closer to Christ's position than the Third Person of the Godhead.

Ellen White is talking here about Lucifer's jealousy of Christ, not his jealousy of the Holy Spirit. Lucifer wasn't questioning the right of the Holy Spirit to be in the councils of God. [For all we know, Lucifer was probably not even aware of the existence of the Holy Spirit. He certainly could not see the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit does not have a form or a body as the Father and Christ have.] Nor was Lucifer questioning the right of the Father to be in those councils. But Lucifer was clearly challenging the right of Michael the Archangel-- also called the Word [message] of God-- to be preferred above himself. Because of his jealousy and envy, Lucifer could not understand why Michael the Archangel was chosen to enter into the councils of God when he himself was kept outside. Eventually the Father called the angels together for the purpose of clarifying Christ's true position in heaven.

Why was this necessary?

[John317]

Satan doesn't challenge God's power.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

According to the SDA Pioneers and Ellen White He absolutely challenged God's power...

...In SDA theology Jesus was tempted by Satan because it was possible Jesus could fall under Satan's temptations.

You have this wrong, Gustave. SDAs don't teach that Satan challeged God's power. Satan challanges God's government and His laws.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...In Catholicism / Eastern Orthodoxy & Trinitarian Christian religions.

...Jesus was tempted by Satan so as to show HE COULDN'T sin.

What good would such a fake temptation [or test] have done? Would you call a test genuine if the person being tested cannot possibly fail?

If Christ could not possibly have sinned, Christ's temptation would only have proved that Satan's allegations against God were true.

As the Second Adam, Christ's temptations proved that it was possible for Adam to have obeyed God. Adam need not have disobeyed God. He could have obeyed God's law. That is what Christ did. But Christ could only demonstrate this if Christ could have sinned. If Christ had an advantage over Adam, the test wouldn't have proved that Adam need not have sinned.

[John317]

...We know that Ellen White did believed that the Holy Spirit was also a member of the Deity. This is precisely the problem: She contradicts herself by telling us both that the third position of honor was held by two distinct individuals: Lucifer and the Holy Spirit, which is a logical impossibility.

I conclude that, due to the fact that Ellen borrowed so much from other authors, she probably never realized that she was holding two contradictory beliefs.

You sure of this? You are actually only showing how little you know and understand of Ellen G. White. For one thing, if you are right here, I wouldn't spend another dollar on her writings; they wouldn't be worth the paper they are printed on, and she would prove to be a very superficial thinker and writer. Happily for the SDA Church, you are wrong.

[John317]

[Gustave]

As the Second Adam, Christ's temptations proved that it was possible for Adam to have obeyed God. Adam need not have disobeyed God. He could have obeyed God's law. That is what Christ did. But Christ could only demonstrate this if Christ could have sinned. If Christ had an advantage over Adam, the test wouldn't have proved that Adam need not have sinned.

"Christ's temptations proved that it was possible for Adam to have obeyed God".? ? ? ?

Like I said, SDA's can attest to many things...

...Accepting the Trinity Doctrine however isn't one of those things.

...Where in the world did you get this idea John?

The temptations directed at Jesus from Satan further PROVED Jesus was the Christ...

...Exactly as Jesus being called out of Egypt further proved He was the Christ.

...And every other thing the Gospel says about Jesus, that was.

..."According to the Scriptures".

[Gustave]

Some examples:

Matthew 2,15

And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Matthew 2,17

Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

Matthew 2,23

And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene

Matthew 4,13

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles

Matthew 8,17

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses

Matthew 12,16

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles

Matthew 26,55

But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

Mark 15,27

And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left. And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors

Let's look at Isaiah 53 since Mark 15,27 tells us that THAT Scripture was FULFILLED.

Isaiah 53

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, NEITHER was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors

Had Jesus sinned He simply would have FAILED to fulfill this and MANY other prophicies...

...Which would have equated to Jesus NOT being the Christ.

...So all this talk about the actual Christ "could have failed".

...Is simply Arianism, plain and simple.

[Guest]

Here's a quote that places the Holy Spirit in heaven and in council with the Father and the Son at the time of the Fall of the human race: {CH 222}

I never knew she said that.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: John317

Ellen White says this in CH 222 about the Holy Spirit:

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption.

Notice how she defines the eternal Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

We know that Ellen White did believed that the Holy Spirit was also a member of the Deity. This is precisely the problem: She contradicts herself by telling us both that the third position of honor was held by two distinct individuals: Lucifer and the Holy Spirit, which is a logical impossibility.

I conclude that, due to the fact that Ellen borrowed so much from other authors, she probably never realized that she was holding two contradictory beliefs.

You have to be kidding, Nic. Unfortunately I'm sure you aren't.

Richard, I would really like to know what you think on this question. Do you agree with Nic here?

Is Ellen White contradicting herself? How do you explain it?

I'd like to see the quotes that Nic is talking about.

[doug yowell]