Woody Posted May 27, 2012 Posted May 27, 2012 Doug is good at critical thinking. Yes, but rather than being critical - we should go with the Spirit. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
olger Posted May 27, 2012 Posted May 27, 2012 It is not the Word that is on trial by the "spirits", but rather the spirits that are on trial by the Word. G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
doug yowell Posted May 27, 2012 Posted May 27, 2012 Was it a male leader that lead them into apostasy? Again and Again... Quote
doug yowell Posted May 27, 2012 Posted May 27, 2012 Originally Posted By: olger Doug is good at critical thinking. Yes, but rather than being critical - we should go with the Spirit. I gotta admit that that was a good one,Woody. Quote
Overaged Posted May 27, 2012 Posted May 27, 2012 Was it a male leader that lead them into apostasy? Again and Again... Numerous failed male leaders. Many more than successful ones. Not many instances of bad female leaders. Jezebel seems the only one that comes to mind. For much longer than 1500 years. I don't understand how you can pit the two genders against one another like this, and then say you support either one or the other. This is not about numbers; it is not about "equality;" nor is it about rights. It should simply be what does God say about it. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
olger Posted May 27, 2012 Posted May 27, 2012 Succinctly put, OA Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 27, 2012 Administrators Posted May 27, 2012 It is not the Word that is on trial by the "spirits", but rather the spirits that are on trial by the Word. G One should be very careful about putting the Holy Spirit on trial. It reminds me of the pharisees' question by what spirit Jesus cast out demons. Cursing the work of the Holy Spirit and accusing it of being of being another spirit was not taken lightly by The Word. A sin of eternal consequences... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 27, 2012 Administrators Posted May 27, 2012 Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore Was it a male leader that lead them into apostasy? Again and Again... Numerous failed male leaders. Many more than successful ones. Not many instances of bad female leaders. Jezebel seems the only one that comes to mind. For much longer than 1500 years. I don't understand how you can pit the two genders against one another like this, and then say you support either one or the other. This is not about numbers; it is not about "equality;" nor is it about rights. It should simply be what does God say about it. An adventure in missing the point, again. I was not the one to interject the comparison. I was simply testing the notion that had been introduced by Doug's thought that the Biblical history of male leadership as opposed to any women in leadership. We can see how well that turned out. Oneness or unity (equality, if you will) is a God idea. God in the flesh saw it as a priority for our generation. Read his prayer for us in John 17. And consider Jesus statements about and treatment of women in context of the times he was here on earth. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
olger Posted May 27, 2012 Posted May 27, 2012 Originally Posted By: olger It is not the Word that is on trial by the "spirits", but rather the spirits that are on trial by the Word. G One should be very careful about putting the Holy Spirit on trial. It reminds me of the pharisees' question by what spirit Jesus cast out demons. Cursing the work of the Holy Spirit and accusing it of being of being another spirit was not taken lightly by The Word. A sin of eternal consequences... Thomas. Don't assume that all spirits are true. They aren't. The Bible is clear on this point and invites us to test them. "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1). rejoice always, G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Gordon1 Posted May 27, 2012 Posted May 27, 2012 One should be very careful about putting the Holy Spirit on trial...A sin of eternal consequences... Tom, here you've embraced the spirit of Catholicism. Any honest inquiry is deemed heresy and damnation, just as the priests threaten. Don't ask questions, don't be a noble Berean, don't test the spirits. Jesus had the Holy Spirit without measure (John 3:34), and He chose 12 men. Quote
olger Posted May 27, 2012 Posted May 27, 2012 Complete truth, Gordon. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Overaged Posted May 27, 2012 Posted May 27, 2012 An adventure in missing the point, again. I was not the one to interject the comparison. I was simply testing the notion that had been introduced by Doug's thought that the Biblical history of male leadership as opposed to any women in leadership. We can see how well that turned out. Oneness or unity (equality, if you will) is a God idea. God in the flesh saw it as a priority for our generation. Read his prayer for us in John 17. And consider Jesus statements about and treatment of women in context of the times he was here on earth. lol, I am always missing the point Tom. Nothing new there. And I should have worded that post a bit differently so that it did not seem as though I was referring directly to you. My use of "you" was not personal. I still think my point is well taken. It's never a good idea to pit the genders against one another; and you are right, Doug was doing that too. I had meant to spell that out but was in a rush. There are many mistaken notions and myths about John 17; especially re "equality." That is NOT what it is about, and that is NOT what WO or MO is about. The Bible does not say that at all. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Woody Posted May 27, 2012 Posted May 27, 2012 Good Points Tom Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 27, 2012 Administrators Posted May 27, 2012 Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore One should be very careful about putting the Holy Spirit on trial. It reminds me of the pharisees' question by what spirit Jesus cast out demons. Cursing the work of the Holy Spirit and accusing it of being of being another spirit was not taken lightly by The Word. A sin of eternal consequences... Thomas. Don't assume that all spirits are true. They aren't. The Bible is clear on this point and invites us to test them. "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1). rejoice always, G Ger and Gordon, Missing the point... The account of Jesus casting out demons (Matthew 12 and Mark 3). Pharisees doubted the Holy Spirit was in it and accused Jesus of acting by another spirit, Beelzebub. This ended with one of Jesus most stern rebukes, the only suggestion of unforgivable sin. To accuse the Holy Spirit of being an unholy spirit is a most serious charge. That is unforgivable, according to what Jesus said. What I have seen here, right now and have seen before is sincere fellow Christians prayerfully seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit and testifying under the clear impression of the Holy Spirit that they have reached the Spirit lead conclusion to move forward in faith and confidence to fully and unreservedly recognize women as ministers of the gospel without distinction from their male counterparts. The reaction voiced by you and echoed by others opposing women in ministry is to question and cast doubt (you call it testing) with no means or real attempts of proof on what spirit is really involved, just as the Pharisees' accusation against Jesus. I am saying that it is not a trifling matter to cast accusations against the work of the Holy Spirit. One should be very certain and unreservedly confident they are right. The alternative has eternal consequences, according to Jesus. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 27, 2012 Administrators Posted May 27, 2012 ...Nothing prohibits man and women from working as one but just as Christ submitted Himself to His Equal so God has asked Godly women to submit themselves to their equals, not demand autonomy. Autonomy?!?! Not sure where that idea comes from... Not even under consideration in WO. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Woody Posted May 27, 2012 Posted May 27, 2012 Quote: The reaction voiced by you and echoed by others opposing women in ministry is to question and cast doubt (you call it testing) with no means or real attempts of proof on what spirit is really involved, just as the Pharisees' accusation against Jesus. I am saying that it is not a trifling matter to cast accusations against the work of the Holy Spirit. One should be very certain and unreservedly confident they are right. The alternative has eternal consequences, according to Jesus. Well said and yes it is a serious matter that they should take seriously rather than just dismissing. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 27, 2012 Administrators Posted May 27, 2012 Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore One should be very careful about putting the Holy Spirit on trial...A sin of eternal consequences... Tom, here you've embraced the spirit of Catholicism. Any honest inquiry is deemed heresy and damnation, just as the priests threaten. Don't ask questions, don't be a noble Berean, don't test the spirits. Jesus had the Holy Spirit without measure (John 3:34), and He chose 12 men. Catholicism?!?! Who is really making an honest inquiry? And who is it that is being accused of heresy? Think maybe you have it backward? Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
doug yowell Posted May 27, 2012 Posted May 27, 2012 I still think my point is well taken. It's never a good idea to pit the genders against one another; and you are right, Doug was doing that too. I had meant to spell that out but was in a rush. Now that you're not in a rush how bout spelling it out for me. Where did I pit one gender against another?? Tom has consistently and openly claimed that it was men who have perverted the Word of God and His ideals and that the inclusion of women in leadership positions would finally even things up. Tom's exclusion of women as examples of those who have also (notice I said also?)messed things up pit the failures of men against the possibility that with women's help all this could be avoided in the future. Tom also openly rejects EGW's interpretation of "the curse". She said the curse could be a blessing.He says the curse must be removed because it prohibits the blessing.It is on this premise that both arguments rest.If the statement by EGW on "the curse" is true then Tom's solution for unity and cooperation among the sexes is the real pitting of one against the other.If Tom's call for the eradication of the curse is true then the Holy Spirit did not speak through Ellen White's counsel.Both can't be right. Quote
BobRyan Posted May 27, 2012 Posted May 27, 2012 Was the Holy Spirit moving people when the GC in session voted against against WO? That is the bigger question here. Because those SDA professors who want to force evolution on as many unsuspecting SDA college freshmen as possible - are just waiting for the green light that says "no matter the vote of this denomination - do as you please". in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
doug yowell Posted May 27, 2012 Posted May 27, 2012 The account of Jesus casting out demons (Matthew 12 and Mark 3). Pharisees doubted the Holy Spirit was in it and accused Jesus of acting by another spirit, Beelzebub. This ended with one of Jesus most stern rebukes, the only suggestion of unforgivable sin. To accuse the Holy Spirit of being an unholy spirit is a most serious charge. That is unforgivable, according to what Jesus said. Quote
Woody Posted May 27, 2012 Posted May 27, 2012 What I am concerned about with the Anti-WO crowd and movement - is that they have decided to ignore or dismiss the clear word of scripture. This concerns me. If we do it with WO - what other Biblical directives are we going to do it with? This is serious business in my book. I take the word of God seriously and I think all should. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Administrators Naomi Posted May 28, 2012 Administrators Posted May 28, 2012 that's a pretty serious accusation. Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God
CoAspen Posted May 28, 2012 Posted May 28, 2012 I am still left speechless that those against will not and refuse to acknowledge that it is the fruit of the spirit that decides, not man made interpretations. Male or female should always be tested in that manner. If a women is saying she has been lead by the H*S and her works show the same, why would any man or women deny that person being lead by the H*P. That is what Tom is saying and myself, yet no one will address that issue. My challenge for all is to let the 'proof be in the pudding'! If those against, truly believe God is in control, then let's wait for the results...oh, wait a minute...we do have results, from all over! The debate has been and still continues about 'who is right', not about letting God be in control. Did He not send us the H*S as a guide after He left? Are going to step out in faith or stand in place? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted May 28, 2012 Moderators Posted May 28, 2012 What I am concerned about with the Anti-WO crowd and movement - is that they have decided to ignore or dismiss the clear word of scripture. This concerns me. What clear word of Scripture is the "anti-WO crowd" ignoring and dismissing? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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