Woody Posted May 28, 2012 Posted May 28, 2012 I am still left speechless that those against will not and refuse to acknowledge that it is the fruit of the spirit that decides, not man made interpretations. Male or female should always be tested in that manner. If a women is saying she has been lead by the H*S and her works show the same, why would any man or women deny that person being lead by the H*P. That is what Tom is saying and myself, yet no one will address that issue. My challenge for all is to let the 'proof be in the pudding'! If those against, truly believe God is in control, then let's wait for the results...oh, wait a minute...we do have results, from all over! The debate has been and still continues about 'who is right', not about letting God be in control. Did He not send us the H*S as a guide after He left? Are going to step out in faith or stand in place? You are SO right CoA. But I've found it's like pulling teeth to get the anti- crowd to focus in on the Biblical and Spiritual issues at hand here. I just don't know what more can be said. We have gone over and over and over all the Biblical directives and with no success in getting them to focus on the real issues. Instead they steer clear of the issue at hand and focus on straw or cartoons. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted May 28, 2012 Moderators Posted May 28, 2012 .... If a women is saying she has been lead by the H*S and her works show the same, why would any man or women deny that person being lead by the H*P. That is what Tom is saying and myself, yet no one will address that issue. The Holy Spirit will never lead people to go against the instructions He's already given in the Scriptures. If people feel they are being led to go against it, then they are wrong. There are millions of people who believe their lives are proof that God leads them to break the Sabbath. The Bible and SOP are the standards of truth. Originally Posted By: CoAspen My challenge for all is to let the 'proof be in the pudding'! If those against, truly believe God is in control, then let's wait for the results...oh, wait a minute...we do have results, from all over! That's clearly an invalid test, because history shows that all kinds of false teachings and practices are done in the Christian church in God's name. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted May 28, 2012 Moderators Posted May 28, 2012 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted May 28, 2012 Moderators Posted May 28, 2012 x10 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
CoAspen Posted May 28, 2012 Posted May 28, 2012 Quote: then let's wait for the results Quote: That's clearly an invalid test Again, the obvious is ignored! Results are people being led to God and accepting the working of the H*S on their hearts. But, hey...go for it....declare the working of the H*S as invalid, I ain't stepping in pit, maybe even vipers!! Quote
Woody Posted May 28, 2012 Posted May 28, 2012 Yes. But it's not a matter of what we "like". We may like to suppress women. We may like to eat candy bars. There are lots of things we may like. But what we must go by is what scriptures tell us to do. That is the key in my mind. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted May 28, 2012 Posted May 28, 2012 Quote: Again, the obvious is ignored! Results are people being led to God and accepting the working of the H*S on their hearts. But, hey...go for it....declare the working of the H*S as invalid, I ain't stepping in pit, maybe even vipers!! Exactly - Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Overaged Posted May 28, 2012 Posted May 28, 2012 The reaction voiced by you and echoed by others opposing women in ministry is to question and cast doubt (you call it testing) with no means or real attempts of proof on what spirit is really involved, just as the Pharisees' accusation against Jesus. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
CoAspen Posted May 28, 2012 Posted May 28, 2012 Quote: Again; where is the definitive proof that the Holy Spirit is leading? Spell it out for those of us who you say "keep missing the point." I suppose we could say the 'definitive proof' will be when Christ comes. But for now, we just have to go by the results of those, male or female, that God has chosen for His ministry. If the H*S is not leading, then the results of any 'minister' will be for naught. Are people more concerned with 'testing the spirits' or accepting the 'results of the spirit'? As of now, I would have to say there seems to be a split on that answer. I sense a deja vu on this topic, sucked into a time warp. Again, i ask the question for the umpteenth time, stand still, go backwards or trust in God and go forward. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.....luke warm is not the place to be! Quote
Overaged Posted May 28, 2012 Posted May 28, 2012 What some call "go forward" is actually the opposite...more than just rhetorical truth-mongering about The Holy Spirit is needed here...I am just asking for proof. Are you saying there is something wrong with that? Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 28, 2012 Administrators Posted May 28, 2012 I am still left speechless that those against will not and refuse to acknowledge that it is the fruit of the spirit that decides, not man made interpretations. Male or female should always be tested in that manner. If a women is saying she has been lead by the H*S and her works show the same, why would any man or women deny that person being lead by the H*P. That is what Tom is saying and myself, yet no one will address that issue. My challenge for all is to let the 'proof be in the pudding'! If those against, truly believe God is in control, then let's wait for the results...oh, wait a minute...we do have results, from all over! The debate has been and still continues about 'who is right', not about letting God be in control. Did He not send us the H*S as a guide after He left? Are going to step out in faith or stand in place? Indeed! The basis of ordination to the gospel ministry is evidence of the calling. One who is called demonstrates through that evidence the presence of the Holy Spirit enabling that pastor to lead souls to Christ and nurture them in the faith. It is when this is seen in the ministry of a pastor that they are to be ordained and thus dedicated to a lifelong calling to the gospel ministry. That has been the clear policy and practice of the Adventist Church for generations and is explicitly backed by EGW writings and Holy Scripture. We have pointed out numerous times that women pastors have met this test of ordination. They have brought souls to Christ, teaching them, baptizing them and nurturing them in the faith. They have demonstrated clearly the presence of the Holy Spirit in their ministry. This is the point that has been repeatedly missed. Repeatedly when I have pointed this out to those opposed to women in ministry and/or those opposed to WO, I have been told bluntly that the devil can fake those conversions, casting doubt upon the evidence of the Holy Spirit working in the ministry of these women pastors. (Never minding or questioning the same kind of evidence for men being presented for ordination...) And when I see those here voicing the very same doubt of the guidance of the Holy Spirit in this movement supporting these women in their ministry, I am sickened. It sounds so very much like the very same accusation leveled against Jesus, casting doubt on the presence of the Holy Spirit in His work. The wisdom of Gamaliel (Acts 5) seems fitting and echoes the conclusion of Jesus regarding the accusations of the Pharisees against Him - "For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God." Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
CoAspen Posted May 28, 2012 Posted May 28, 2012 What some call "go forward" is actually the opposite...more than just rhetorical truth-mongering about The Holy Spirit is needed here...I am just asking for proof. Are you saying there is something wrong with that? I gave you 'proof' and Tom backed it up, 'proof' that the Bible has always used and what we have been taught as a church. Why do you continue to ignore and ask for more? There is just no more truth than results! Quote
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 28, 2012 Administrators Posted May 28, 2012 What some call "go forward" is actually the opposite...more than just rhetorical truth-mongering about The Holy Spirit is needed here...I am just asking for proof. Are you saying there is something wrong with that? And again let me invoke the experience of Jesus when he was asked to show a sign (proof) that he was who he said he was. This was after numerous miracles were performed by Him. But the doubters wanted more proof. Do you recall His response? To those remaining in doubt I would ask, "What experience do you have working with or observing and/or experiencing first-hand the ministry of women pastors?" As I have said before, in my entire adult life, spanning nearly 40 years, every church of which I have been a member has had at least one female pastor. ( I just recently spoke with the first of those now in retirement after many faithful years of ministry.) I have witnessed first-hand what it means to have women pastoring my church and my own family. That is the proof. That is why I so fervently support WO. It is time. It is long past time. Maybe it will happen in Josephine's lifetime. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 28, 2012 Administrators Posted May 28, 2012 Originally Posted By: CoAspen .... If a women is saying she has been lead by the H*S and her works show the same, why would any man or women deny that person being lead by the H*P. That is what Tom is saying and myself, yet no one will address that issue. The Holy Spirit will never lead people to go against the instructions He's already given in the Scriptures. If people feel they are being led to go against it, then they are wrong. There are millions of people who believe their lives are proof that God leads them to break the Sabbath. The Bible and SOP are the standards of truth. Originally Posted By: CoAspen My challenge for all is to let the 'proof be in the pudding'! If those against, truly believe God is in control, then let's wait for the results...oh, wait a minute...we do have results, from all over! That's clearly an invalid test, because history shows that all kinds of false teachings and practices are done in the Christian church in God's name. As I was saying... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
olger Posted May 28, 2012 Posted May 28, 2012 The basis of ordination to the gospel ministry is evidence of the calling. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 28, 2012 Administrators Posted May 28, 2012 Missing the point... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Moderators Gerr Posted May 29, 2012 Moderators Posted May 29, 2012 Indeed! The basis of ordination to the gospel ministry is evidence of the calling. Do you believe that every ordained minister is/was called by God? Quote
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted May 29, 2012 Administrators Posted May 29, 2012 Originally Posted By: Tom Indeed! The basis of ordination to the gospel ministry is evidence of the calling. Do you believe that every ordained minister is/was called by God? We can only see the fruit of the calling. That was the point of what is prelude to ordination of a minister. The essential assumption is that if God calls a person, that calling will bear fruit. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Overaged Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 The "Real Issues In Adventism Forum" only has 6 topics that are about WO in some way. Of course, if I were to call that spam; things would happen. But all I know is I am sick of the aggressive doctrinal whipping by WO supporters. Maybe I should post what 3 different women who have seen these threads have said. They support equal rights for women but all thought this push by WO supporters here was way over the top from any reasonable bounds. None of these ladies are forum members, and they all thought this whole thing is "stupid" among other things. That was the exact word they used. (among others). Wresting the scriptures to "support" any issue is always wrong. No matter how one "interprets" Phoebe or whatever...I've never seen such desperate nit-picking to try to find one little point to undo all the clear evidence of scripture that is absent of "proof" for women being ordained pastors. I am going to continue to show these threads to women I know and see if I can even find one that thinks this is the way the Lord would have us walk... Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Moderators lazarus Posted June 4, 2012 Author Moderators Posted June 4, 2012 The "Real Issues In Adventism Forum" only has 6 topics that are about WO in some way. Of course, if I were to call that spam; things would happen. But all I know is I am sick of the aggressive doctrinal whipping by WO supporters. Hmmmm. I don't see it as aggressive at all. WO is a hot topic in some limited SDA circles. My guess is the majority of SDA members don't even know that its "back on the table". There are all kinds of issues that conservative members of the church feel passionate about. They have started numerous threads about them. Remember Spiritual Formation? They should be free to do so. The Treyvon Martin spawned a number of wild and crazy "spamish" threads. Did you object to those? The fact that a Union calls a special session shows that a significant shift may occur in Adventism. Six threads, most with a significant number of posts shows there is interest. Quote: I am going to continue to show these threads to women I know and see if I can even find one that thinks this is the way the Lord would have us walk... Perhaps you should start a thread and post the reactions of these women! Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 4, 2012 Administrators Posted June 4, 2012 Or better yet, have them join in here and offer their direct input to the conversation... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 4, 2012 Administrators Posted June 4, 2012 ... Six threads, most with a significant number of posts shows there is interest... And over 15,000 views... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Overaged Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 Thanks for the spam, which is what it would be if anyone else did this with another subject Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Overaged Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 Or better yet, have them join in here and offer their direct input to the conversation... Yes, ahem. Well, so far all they will say to me about that question is "i would never post there in a million years with "people like that."" Sorry, that is their words, not mine. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Overaged Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 Hmmmm. I don't see it as aggressive at all. WO is a hot topic in some limited SDA circles. Perhaps you should start a thread and post the reactions of these women! Unfortunately, I have a growing list of non-Adventists who look at what WO supporters are doing here, and they won't even come to our church because of it. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.