Ordination is NOT scriptural

[Woody]

http://vimeo.com/42298846

[Stan]

this needs more attention, as it reinforces what I have been saying :)

[olger]

I found this, Red.

NKJV Bible:

Qualified Elders

"For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and ordain elders in every city as I commanded you— if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict" (Titus 1:5-8).

[Stan]

BUT the question is this, what did he mean by ordain? Did it involve laying on the hands? AND the ceremony we have today?

[olger]

I am willing to learn more,

Rejoice always,

G

[Woody]

this needs more attention, as it reinforces what I have been saying

Refresh my memory Stan. What have you been saying?

[Woody]

Quote:

I found this, Red.

I agree with Stan and his response to your text og.

Does ordain mean to 'send forth' or to 'tell' one to do soemthing? OR - what really was meant with this word?

That is the big question. I do not know the answer. But like you - I am willing to learn.

[Stan]

I do not understand why men are ordain, in the process we use today.

To ordain women by laying mens hands upon them would have been an abomination in that area of the world. To have another man touch your wife would just bot be acceptable. I know those are not american values, and is hard for us to understand.

[Woody]

I do not understand why men are ordain, in the process we use today.

To ordain women by laying mens hands upon them would have been an abomination in that area of the world. To have another man touch your wife would just bot be acceptable. I know those are not american values, and is hard for us to understand.

Good point there Stan. Nowadays in the US - if you are not a 'hugger' you are not with it man.

[Gordon1]

Good point there Stan. Nowadays in the US - if you are not a 'hugger' you are not with it man.

Hugger and smoocher Woody.

I am not with it man.

I doubt the Whites were with it either.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Good point there Stan. Nowadays in the US - if you are not a 'hugger' you are not with it man.

Hugger and smoocher Woody.

I am not with it man.

I doubt the Whites were with it either.

There is one place I draw the line at - I do not hug and smooch the men. Hugging and smooching is something I do with the women ONLY. THank you.

Edit: What makes you think that the Whites didn't smooch man? Ask the White Estate. U will see -

[Gibs]

I think these will answer the question,

Isa 49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

I don't think Yah. has ever changed the fact He Himself ordains, sends forth, His Servants, teacher or prophet whatever roll He sends them forth by His Spirit. Remember the Apostles didn't go forth until after Pentecost.

Men are appointed to ordain elders in the church but that is as high I find man is to ordain.

A recognition service is about as far as man can go and at that he could be wrong. I stand by the idea that each in the pews is to decide for himself if the orator behind the pulpit is ordained of Yah. or men.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Overaged]

I do not understand why men are ordain, in the process we use today.

To ordain women by laying mens hands upon them would have been an abomination in that area of the world. To have another man touch your wife would just bot be acceptable. I know those are not american values, and is hard for us to understand.

Ordain is only mentioned in 5 verses of the Bible

1Ch_9:22 All these which were chosen to be porters in the gates were two hundred and twelve. These were reckoned by their genealogy in their villages, whom David and Samuel the seer did ordain in their set office.

1Ch_17:9 Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning,

Isa_26:12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.

1Co_7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

Tit_1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

Ordained is mentioned 37 times:

Num_28:6 It is a continual burnt offering, which was ordained in mount Sinai for a sweet savour, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD.

1Ki_12:32 And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made.

1Ki_12:33 So he offered upon the altar which he had made in Bethel the fifteenth day of the eighth month, even in the month which he had devised of his own heart; and ordained a feast unto the children of Israel: and he offered upon the altar, and burnt incense.

2Ki_23:5 And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.

2Ch_11:15 And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.

2Ch_23:18 Also Jehoiada appointed the offices of the house of the LORD by the hand of the priests the Levites, whom David had distributed in the house of the LORD, to offer the burnt offerings of the LORD, as it is written in the law of Moses, with rejoicing and with singing, as it was ordained by David.

2Ch_29:27 And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began also with the trumpets, and with the instruments ordained by David king of Israel.

Est_9:27 The Jews ordained, and took upon them, and upon their seed, and upon all such as joined themselves unto them, so as it should not fail, that they would keep these two days according to their writing, and according to their appointed time every year;

Psa_8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

Psa_8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Psa_81:5 This he ordained in Joseph for a testimony, when he went out through the land of Egypt: where I heard a language that I understood not.

Psa_132:17 There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for mine anointed.

Isa_30:33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

Jer_1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Dan_2:24 Therefore Daniel went in unto Arioch, whom the king had ordained to destroy the wise men of Babylon: he went and said thus unto him; Destroy not the wise men of Babylon: bring me in before the king, and I will shew unto the king the interpretation.

Hab_1:12 Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

Mar_3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,

Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Act_1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Act_10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Act_14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Act_16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

Act_17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Rom_7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Rom_13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

1Co_2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Co_9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Gal_3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1Ti_2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

2Ti_4:22 The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen. The second epistle unto Timotheus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Ephesians, was written from Rome, when Paul was brought before Nero the second time.

Tit_3:15 All that are with me salute thee. Greet them that love us in the faith. Grace be with you all. Amen. It was written to Titus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Cretians, from Nicopolis of Macedonia.

Heb_5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

Heb_8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

Heb_9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

Jud_1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is readily apparent without even getting into word studies, that the words ordain and ordained are used in multiple contexts, and so it needs to be examined on a verse by verse basis, as some of it's uses do not seem to involve ordaining of priests/pastors, or elders.

The question is simple. What does the Bible say about it, when it comes to Church leaders, and ordination?

And it needs to be asked; is WO really about "laying on of hands?"

[Gordon1]

There is one place I draw the line at - I do not hug and smooch the men. Hugging and smooching is something I do with the women ONLY. THank you.

Edit: What makes you think that the Whites didn't smooch man? Ask the White Estate. U will see -

Hi Woody,

I'm sure the Whites followed the Bible injunction "Greet one another with a holy kiss" but can't see that this would apply to the opposite sex. That would not be holy, just as Stan related that men laying hands on a woman would be an abomination.

Today the order has been changed, in keeping with modern values.

Sister White had this to say:

"The world has converted the Church."

[Gibs]

OV,

One of the better ones you posted is,

Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

That kind of ordination is to be reckonized.

You posted one that needs a lot of air here, and maybe you'd like to start it.

Rom_13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

There will be a lot of questions of that verse and what is meant.

Are all powers in our world ordained of God? Yes we must be subject to the ones ordained of God, the others are really no power compared to God. I will go along with the last part of the verse. "For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

I find Rom 13:, first verses are wrested to say something not meant of Paul and reason will tell one so.

This is going to come down on SDA's hard before long. Yes we must be team players with TPTB. (the powers that that be)

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[olger]

Male & female roles: The World or the Word?

[Woody]

If we ALL are ordained by God - then is earthly ordination necessary?

[olger]

All are not leaders, according to the New Testament.

[Woody]

All are not leaders, according to the New Testament.

The question here is - is it necessary to be earthly ordained by human hands - to be a leader? Is being ordained by God enough?

[Gibs]

Woody, I think the trouble is ALL are NOT ordained of God but go about teaching. We sort it out by His Word as to what they speak.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Ac 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Re 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you"

[Gibs]

Woody,

To add to my post above, any ordination above elders can only be a recognition service at most. Many are not ordained of God to preach and teach that men attach ordination credentials to.

Re 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Good Point Gibs

[CoAspen]

What needs to be admitted, but will never happen, is a change in the ol' boys club threatens too many people, regardless of the disclaimers. Those who don't believe in WO continue to skirt around the bush on God being in control. We can not give lip service to that belief and then say 'God wouldn't make women leaders'. I do not see a lot of open honesty on the issue. Tradition is trying to trump God. All of this beating each other over the head with Bible texts is going nowhere and accomplishes nothing.

So, are going to allow God to be in charge of His leaders or try to micro-manage it for Him! Do we continue to follow a Catholic tradition, ie, church is session speaks for God being no different than Pope speaking for God, or give up our traditions and actively seek out a hastening of the spread of the 'good news', instead of beating our gums about.

Do we continue to use 'human criteria' for discerning Gods's leading? Using traditional Biblical interpretations IS human discerning. Growth or stagnation?

[Gail]

I am willing to learn more,

Rejoice always,

G

This information was useful to me, too! Thanks for sharing it!