Ordination is NOT scriptural

[Woody]

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[olger]

I think so Red.

When it became necessary to choose deacons, they didn't grab the first seven men they could find. They looked for "seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business." When these men were chosen, they "set them before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them."

In the same manner, elders are qualified for us "the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;  But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince those who contradict" (Titus 1:5-9).

rejoice always,

G

[Woody]

Quote:

rejoice always

I am. The wave is moving.

[doug yowell]

What needs to be admitted, but will never happen, is a change in the ol' boys club threatens too many people, regardless of the disclaimers. Those who don't believe in WO continue to skirt around the bush on God being in control. We can not give lip service to that belief and then say 'God wouldn't make women leaders'. I do not see a lot of open honesty on the issue. Tradition is trying to trump God. All of this beating each other over the head with Bible texts is going nowhere and accomplishes nothing.

So, are going to allow God to be in charge of His leaders or try to micro-manage it for Him! Do we continue to follow a Catholic tradition, ie, church is session speaks for God being no different than Pope speaking for God, or give up our traditions and actively seek out a hastening of the spread of the 'good news', instead of beating our gums about.

Do we continue to use 'human criteria' for discerning Gods's leading? Using traditional Biblical interpretations IS human discerning. Growth or stagnation?

HOw blind can you be, CoA? You just described the Roman Catholic form of governance as being God's way (a small group of "leaders" making the doctrinal decisions for the rest of the laity) and the Protestant form ( the leaders and laity together determining God's will)as being a useless tradition!! This is exactly what the RCC teaches.According too your formula the good ol boys are those who keep the laity away from thing they can't understand. Good grief,Charlie Brown!!

[CoAspen]

He-he....need to read it a little more open minded and connect the dots! When I say 'God to be in charge of His leaders', I am talking about whom He chooses, not men! My only reference to RC is about the statements being made that 'church is session' is speaking for God as being the same as the belief that the 'Pope speaks for God'. You are reading way to much into my statement that is not being said. My statement says the 'good ol boys' don't want to give up their dominance by tradition!

God chooses men and women, men choose men! How much plainer can I make it! Are we going to keep on denying that God is the ultimate decision maker not men? I reject the current view of 'church in session speaking for God'...how much plainer can I make it!

(You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink)

[CoAspen]

'Laity'...never mentioned the word! You injected that word into the conversation!! have no idea where your thinking is going!!

[Enabled]

Just curious what one should make of Paul's intent: "a man having one wife" it raises a number of questions: such as context, how that might apply to a woman (deaconess) etc.

Happy Sabbath

[doug yowell]

He-he....need to read it a little more open minded and connect the dots! When I say 'God to be in charge of His leaders', I am talking about whom He chooses, not men!

[Overaged]

Quote:

(You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink)

Try salting the oats.

[TreeOfLife]

Re the word 'ordain' - definitions and Scripture usage

Looking up instances in the Scriptures using my e-Sword I find any number of different Hebrew and Greek words being translated 'ordain' or 'ordained.'

For instance, for 1 Corintians 7:17 I find Strong's #G1299, and for Titus 1:5 I find that Strong's #G2525 defines the Greek word being translated. One of those Greek words mean 'to institute' or 'to prescribe,' the other means 'to designate.'

Accordingly, I find that our present ritual of ordination is just that, a ritual. Empty and meaningless to the extent that it is not being used for purposes fully in line with Scripture principles...

Thanks for alerting me towards becoming a little more fully aware of the meaning of this word and of the rituals being propagated through our ministry! Reminds me of the off track ritualistic slaughter of animals that became what it became after so many generations of priests who failed to touch basis with, and carefully study, the ultimate intent and purposes for their daily actions.

No wonder that we find verses in the Bible - re ritualistic slaughter, re ritualistic ordination, etc. - such as the following:

Proverbs 21:3, 27

"To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice."

"The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind?"

Ecclesiates 5:1

"Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil."

Isaiah 1:11-16

"To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

"When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

"Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

"Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

"And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

"Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;"

Amos 5:21-24

"I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.

"Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.

"Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.

"But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream."

[TreeOfLife]

Happy Seventh Day Sabbath, and happy 15th day of the 50 days being counted towards Scripture Pentecost!

[Overaged]

About your "message" here:

It is as dangerous to refuse to go when called, as it is to run without a call.

[Stan]

did anyone watch the video?

[Gail]

did anyone watch the video?

Yep- all the way through. I don't do that with all, but I enjoyed this one

[Woody]

did anyone watch the video?

I assume that if people are posting here - that they listened to it and are responding. Am I wrong?

[Gail]

So... it begs the question- Have those (mostly conservative) people who do NOT support women's ordination been unwittingly upholding a Catholic viewpoint based on tradition in place of a Biblical one?

[Woody]

So... it begs the question- Have those (mostly conservative) people who do NOT support women's ordination been unwittingly upholding a Catholic viewpoint based on tradition in place of a Biblical one?

Excellent question Gail.

[olger]

I think leadership is the main issue here.

1 Timothy 2 is probably the most offensive passage to the feminist woman because it imposes limits on their public ministry and perpetuates male-leadership in the church. Several Pauline passages have become fashionable to be referred to as "problem passages" because they run counter to modern sensibilities. It should be noted, that they are only a problem to those who have different understandings, whatever the reason.

There are three prevailing attitudes that Bible students adopt towards these passages & others regarding the roles on men & women.

• Paul was wrong then, and he is wrong now. That is, he was sincerely mistaken in his views. Progressives/liberals normally pursue this line.

• Paul was right then, but he is wrong now. This is the culturally-conditioned argument.

• Paul was right then, and he is right now. That is, he was divinely inspired to set standards for all the churches down through "the last days." I believe this is the Bible’s position.

[CoAspen]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

He-he....need to read it a little more open minded and connect the dots! When I say 'God to be in charge of His leaders', I am talking about whom He chooses, not men!

Who chose those leaders who made this decision on WO, God, or man?

Quote:

My only reference to RC is about the statements being made that 'church is session' is speaking for God as being the same as the belief that the 'Pope speaks for God'.

But that doesn't make any sense since the RCC system doesn't allow for any decisions to be made by any other than God's ordained succession of leaders. You seem happy enough to let an SDA small group of leaders decide what God's will is for the church and imply that that approach indicates that the un-Pope is leading. What am I missing?

Quote:

My statement says the 'good ol boys' don't want to give up their dominance by tradition!

Who are the good ol boys here that don't want to give up their dominance?

Quote:

God chooses men and women, men choose men!

God never chose women priests or apostles and the apostles never chose women to open the gospel to the Gentiles.

Quote:

How much plainer can I make it!

Plain enough to see that you have no idea what you're talking about.Men choose men?? Who's pushing the WO agenda,women? I thought you said that called women don't care about WO?

Quote:

I reject the current view of 'church in session speaking for God'...how much plainer can I make it!

Plain enough to realize that while you reject the church in session as God's voice you embrace the vision of a small group of liberal leaders being God's spokesmen.Nothing too difficult about that one.

Quote:

(You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink)

Try salting the oats.

My last try at unconfusing your mind!! I spoke of no small group, your words, but individuals acting upon the calling of the Holy Spirit. You desire to have a group of men decide, based on past traditions, whether or not the spirit really called them. You have set yourself up as 'voice of God' instead of letting the words of and works of the individual speak as to the author of their choosiness.

[CoAspen]

As Tom said in an other post, but I will put it more earthy, be careful to not spit in the eye of the H*S!!!

Does anyone really believe in the H*S?

IS the H*S a part of the Godhead?

Who on this earth has been chosen to speak for the Godhead?

Are we going to keep putting GOD into the BOX of traditional understandings, stagnation, or open OUR minds to a dynamic interaction with God through the H*S?

[Overaged]

You have set yourself up as 'voice of God' instead of letting the words of and works of the individual speak as to the author of their choosiness.

Methinks this is way over the top. It's not "wrong" for Christians to try to decide from the Bible what's right or wrong. You do it all the time too. Are you saying that you also 'set yourself up as the Voice of God?"

[CoAspen]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

You have set yourself up as 'voice of God' instead of letting the words of and works of the individual speak as to the author of their choosiness.

Methinks this is way over the top. It's not "wrong" for Christians to try to decide from the Bible what's right or wrong. You do it all the time too. Are you saying that you also 'set yourself up as the Voice of God?"

Again, self confusion!

I do not decide for anyone, only myself!!!

(how does one make it any simpler....removing the ear plugs...blinders..etc...sheech)

[Overaged]

Again, self confusion!

I do not decide for anyone, only myself!!!

(how does one make it any simpler....removing the ear plugs...blinders..etc...sheech)

I love "self-confusion" It protects me from many things...

[Woody]

Quote:

My last try at unconfusing your mind!! I spoke of no small group, your words, but individuals acting upon the calling of the Holy Spirit. You desire to have a group of men decide, based on past traditions, whether or not the spirit really called them. You have set yourself up as 'voice of God' instead of letting the words of and works of the individual speak as to the author of their choosiness.

BINGO

[Gustave]

The Christians pre 325 that had been hunted down, tortured and killed for their Christian Faith...

...Practiced the laying on of hands with Liturgy as found in the Eastern Orthodox & Catholic Church.

...Therefore when Scripture speaks of the laying on of hands THAT is exactly what it means.

By-The-Way,

Overaged, if that's your dog in that pic that's perhaps the most awesome shot....

...I've ever seen of a pug - it captured what they are.