Can liberal Christianity be saved??

[Woody]

Quote:

He is willing and you must be too

YOu tell us that WE must be - but are YOU and HAVE YOU?

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

Another one of those verses - that when viewed as God speaking His love and grace to us as encouraging us to accept the grace and power He freely gives to us - speaks of the privilege and benefit of the power of overcoming that He gives us as being a member of His family. Accept your sonship and quit being an orphan! The Father is just aching to take you into His arms and welcome you into the Family of God! You don't need to earn it - you have inherited it through faith!

[Bravus]

Read all of the first page, then skipped to the end.

Has anyone asked the obvious question yet?

Over the same period, what has happened to the weekly attendance figures in the US for (a) 'properly conservative' Christian denominations and ( Seventh-day Adventism?

There's no basis to the original article's implication that it is liberalism that is making Episcopalianism shrink if *all* Christian denominations are shrinking. To support his claim he'd need to contrast the shrinking of liberal congregations with the growth of conservative ones.

[JoeMo]

After re-reading the first post, I'm wondering if a more appropriate question wouldn't be "Can mainstream denominational Christianity be saved?" Doing some personal research (admittedly shallow)on church growth, it seems that the fastest growing churches are those that have no denominational affiliation (i.e., "non-denominational" or even "anti-denominational" churches). Take a look at Bethel Church in Redding, CA or Willow Creek Church, or Joseph Prince's Church in Singapore. Just looking at the posts in ClubAdventist, some might think we are not members of the same denomination. I'm a "card-carrying" SDA; but I will not claim to blindly support all 27 (or is it 28?) pillars of the church. Members of self-supporting ministries like Hope International and Steps to Life don't even vaquely resemble those who support Kingdom Adventism or Spectrum Magazine.

Some charismatic revivalist "prophets" claim to have received a Word from God that "There are no more denominations - only relationships".

One could infer from Paul's writings in 1 Cor. 3:3-9 that Paul himself was criticizing denominationalism:

"3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building."

Could verses 4 and 5 be paraprased for our day as:

"For when one says, “I follow Ellen White,” and another, “I follow Martin Luther,” are you not mere human beings?

5 What, after all, is Ellen White? And what is Martin Luther? Only servants, through whom you came to believe ..."

Where I live, the largest, most passionate and fruitful churches are non-(or anti-)denominational: The Rock, Jubilee, Bridgeway, Calvary Chapel et al. The cannot build buy or rent facilities quickly enough to contain their explosive growth. They cannot get enough airplane room to contain all who want to go on their mission trips. They cannot find enough poor people to deliver Thanksgiving and Christmas "care packages" to. In the mean time, many Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Adventist churches cannot meet budget; and on a busy day their churches are maybe half-full at best.

Is God's last day church going to be comprised of people in the body of Christ or people in man-made bricks-and-mortar institutions?

[Gibs]

His True Church has always been those who will follow Him only. These know the True Shepherds voice by it's wonderful quality, THE TRUTH!

All denominational churchs so called are structures of men and most are very extreme liberalists. None of these has ever reformed completely and kept in continual reform. Instead what has transpired is there has been a falling away in them all after they came to a certain stage of reform.

SDAdventism I believe came the furthest in reform and the falling away began slowly at first around 1900 and EGW did her best to turn it but it would not.

No extreme liberality is not the salvation answer. The perfect balance between legalism and liberality is that narrow way Jesus said few will find and I find He is telling us the unfolding truth!

Hear the True Shepherds Voice in His Ekklesia as he is in the midst of His faithful few wherever they are gathered together in His name and worship Him in Spirit and truth.

He is calling today, come out of all apostasy my people and worship me in Spirit and in Truth!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

His True Church has always been those who will follow Him only. These know the True Shepherds voice by it's wonderful quality, THE TRUTH!

All denominational churchs so called are structures of men and most are very extreme liberalists. None of these has ever reformed completely and kept in continual reform. Instead what has transpired is there has been a falling away in them all after they came to a certain stage of reform.

SDAdventism I believe came the furthest in reform and the falling away began slowly at first around 1900 and EGW did her best to turn it but it would not.

No extreme liberality is not the salvation answer. The perfect balance between legalism and liberality is that narrow way Jesus said few will find and I find He is telling us the unfolding truth!

Hear the True Shepherds Voice in His Ekklesia as he is in the midst of His faithful few wherever they are gathered together in His name and worship Him in Spirit and truth.

He is calling today, come out of all apostasy my people and worship me in Spirit and in Truth!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Again what you are saying is true. But how can one maintain that perfect balance between legalism and liberalism and remain on the narrow way? How can one come out of all apostasy and worship God in spirit and in truth? How can one become an overcomer, even more than a conquerer?

Yes, through Christ dwelling in him. But how? By faith, of course. As it is written, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith, that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints, what is the breadth, the length, and depth, and height, and to know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that ye may be filled with all the fullness of God.." (Eph.3:17)

That is the condition.

"Faith is the condition upon which God has seen fit to promise pardon to sinners. Not that there is any virtue in faith whereby salvation is merited, but because faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy provided for sin." E.G. White, Faith & Works,100,101.

By laying hold of the merits of Christ, day by day, we not only obtain the forgiveness of sins. To that are added the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is all the fullness of God making manifest the power of divine grace to keep us from sinning. (D.A.311)

And how does one's faith lay right hold upon the merits of Christ? By claiming them. (T.M.93)

So my brother, I asked you again, what is the remedy provided for sin and how do we lay hold upon that remedy?

sky

[JoeMo]

Sky,

Nice, thoughtful post.

I don't mean to butt into your question to Gibs; but my answer to your questions would be found in Isaiah 30:21:

"And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left."

That voice will be that of the Holy Spirit, which God pours freely upon all those who ask.

Blessings to you,

JoeMo

[skyblue888]

Sky,

Nice, thoughtful post.

I don't mean to butt into your question to Gibs; but my answer would be found in Isaiah 30:21:

"And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left."

That voice will be that of the Holy Spirit, which God pours freely upon all those who ask.

Blessings to you,

JoeMo

Thanks JoeMo.

"Faith is the condition upon which God has seen fit to promise pardon to sinners. Not that there is any virtue in faith whereby salvation is merited, but because faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy provided for sin." E.G. White, Faith & Works,100,101.

After reading the above, I hear the still, small voice of the Holy Spirit saying, "This is the way. Walk ye in it."

do you?

sky

[JoeMo]

Yes; I think I do hear from the Holy Spirit, Sky; although sometimes, I must admit, I do confuse it with my own, sometimes errant imagination. Also, I think sometimes the evil one pretends to be the Holy Spirit. That is why it is so important to stay grounded in God's Word. The way I see it, practice makes perfect!

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Is. 8:20)

"14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." (2Cor.11:14-15)

These "ministers" spoken of an the above passage are those who would keep us mired in Guilt and legalism rather than the grace and power of Jesus Christ.

Blessings,

JoeMo

[doug yowell]

These "ministers" spoken of an the above passage are those who would keep us mired in Guilt and legalism rather than the grace and power of Jesus Christ.

Or those who attempt to assuage guilt and legalism by appealing to the need to "understand" Biblical definitions of sin.If it ain't sin ya don't need to feel guilty, (as in the OP.)

[Gibs]

Doug where on earth are you hearing legalism preachers or ministers. I haven't heard any in years. Legalism is as dead today as true protestantism. Protestantism is left only by name.

What is so awfully alive is liberalism. Tell me is EGW teaching legalism here?

"We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man? Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. Will you permit him to steal from you the graces of the Spirit of God, and plant in you his own corrupt nature? or will you accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in your behalf, become a partaker of the divine nature? God has given His only-begotten Son, that through His shame, suffering, and death, you might have glory, honor, and immortality."--Signs of the Times, June 15, 1891. {TDG 175.2}

The song we hear today is none can put away sin, none can overcome it. That is a lie propagated by the master of deception, Satan to destroy souls that could be saved only if the truth were taught of how it is possible.

Yes folks it is very and absolutely possible with his indwelling and He expects it and any yet committing sin at death will be resurrected the same way, yes in the second resurrection. Hear this by Jesus,

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

There is 6 more about the same in Rev and one 1 JO 5:5

Let's get real, when He enables one and that one won't do it who is to blame. Yes and he will bow the knee and confess he deserves his sentence.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Legalism is the greatest fear we should have in these the last days.

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

I perceive that you are huge on commandment keeping. Here's one :

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:34-35)

"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you." (John 15:12)

"Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for HE WHO LOVES HIS NEIGHBOR HAS FULFILLED THE LAW." (Romans 13:8)

Maybe I'm thick as a brick, but where's the love? I feel a lot of fear, warning, guilt, judgement, and condemnation from your posts; but I don't feel the love! But hey - maybe it's just me. If we're gonna keep the Commandments, we might as well keep all of them. Here's some advice directly from Jesus:

"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you." (Matt. 7:2)

“ Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned." (Luke 6:37)

No judgement or condemnation from here; just asking for a little understanding from you for those of us who may not be as far along the path of overcoming as you are. :)

[Woody]

[doug yowell]

Doug where on earth are you hearing legalism preachers or ministers. I haven't heard any in years. Legalism is as dead today as true protestantism. Protestantism is left only by name.

Legalism today comes mostly in the form of liberalism.It also tries to obey an outward form of "works" that it has created as a substitution for obeying what God has required.Whereas legalism in Jesus day attempted to offer an "obedience" to the first greatest commandment at the expense of the second greatest commandment, liberalism today offers it's fruits of "love" to mankind at the expense of it's equally required commitment to God.

[JoeMo]

I dunno, Doug, it seems that we demonstrate our love for God in how we treat our neighbors. Jesus talked about the "Whatsoever you do to the least of My brothers, that you also do unto Me" thing ... Am I missing something here?

[Gibs]

Yes JoeMoe,

You are missing something. Notice the first,

Mr 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Mr 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

On these two hang all ten, If you truly love God you do the first four of them and don't have to know them. Same as the next 6, if you love your fellow man as yourself, again you need not even know them.

And you will not break any of them, they are the transcript of your character too same as His.

Now when one is telling another that we cannot obey them that is essentially telling them that one don't have love as he ought!

We demonstrate our love to God by doing His full will, we demonstrate our love to our fellow man by doing him no wrong and if we truly love him as we ought that love knows right from wrong.

Prove you have Love!

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1Jo 2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

This strong statement of EGW is sorely needed today and folks, call it legalism if you like but remember she is the topmost in putting down legalism! So Again,and notice the date!

"We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man? Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. Will you permit him to steal from you the graces of the Spirit of God, and plant in you his own corrupt nature? or will you accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in your behalf, become a partaker of the divine nature? God has given His only-begotten Son, that through His shame, suffering, and death, you might have glory, honor, and immortality.--Signs of the Times, June 15, 1891. {TDG 175.2}

Did you really read her statement well? Shame on you if you did not!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[doug yowell]

I dunno, Doug, it seems that we demonstrate our love for God in how we treat our neighbors. Jesus talked about the "Whatsoever you do to the least of My brothers, that you also do unto Me" thing ... Am I missing something here?

Yes, Jesus also noted that there are two greatest commandments: You SHALL love the Lord your God with all your ...heart, AND your neighbor as yourself." He also told the Jewish leaders that ..."these things you should have done WITHOUT LEAVING THE OTHERS UNDONE." Obedience to the whole law is impossible for one whose heart is not changed.They may be able to do some of the works required but not all. It is the heart of mankind that drives them to love.One can keep the Sabbath or feed the poor and think that fulfills the requirements of the law.Legalism either way one cuts it.

[Gibs]

Yes Doug,

It must be of love that begets the works, the works alone don't beget love and that don't get it. To know Him is to love Him and Love to do His Will over ours. Then He is pleased. The love of God in us will render what He wants of us. It then is no yoke and no binding to it, it is out of Love.

How can we not Love Him to the fullest of our beings and heart? Our greatest pleasure should be to be of Him, for Him and with Him in all things at all times.

He will Bless for it!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

I'm still feeling the judgement and condemnation in your posts; but I'm still NOT feeling the love.

I don't know why you keep posting the "We have no hesitancy ..." EGW quote. I read it differently than you do (at least 3 times in seperate posts), because I trust in God's grace and power to help me overcome rather than relying on my own self-righteous strength of will. Only God's grace and power removes the "blots and stains on my soul" - I can't do that. I can only "be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust" through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, given by grace through faith - not by my own strength of will. I DO "accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in [my] behalf to become a partaker of the divine nature" - that's the whole basis of my faith and hope.

Where do you get the idea that some of us are saying we can't obey the Commandments? If you would read correctly, we are saying we can't overcome under own own power; but only by the grace and power that comes from our faith in what Christ has done for us. I can't speak for the others, but I confess that I do sometimes fall short of perfection. Some of us just aren't as far along the trail to sainthood as you are. Please pray for us; but don't judge and condemn us - that's Satan's job! I consider myself a saint who sometimes sins - not a sinner who pretends to be a saint.

Remember the following:

"8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

CHAPTER 2 - 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1John 1:8 - 2:2)

I take these words and face value; and rely on them for salvation. I've said it before; and I say it again - without a Savior I am DOOMED! I congratulate you and anyone else out there who have progressed beyond that point.

Are you totally free of all past, present, and future sin, Gibs? Have you completely and perfectly overcome in all areas of your life? If your answer is yes, please refer to the scripture from 1John above. If you answer no, then, in God's eyes, you are no better than the rest of us infidel heretic Gentile Bohemians -we all have fallen short of the glory of God.

Be Blessed,

JoeMo (NOT JoeMoe)

[skyblue888]

I posted this on a diff thread but I think it will fit here just fine.

There is much talk about the way to attain to righteousness but we must make sure we have the genuine article.

"Righteousness is obedience to the law. The law demands righteousness. This the sinner owes to the law, but he is incapable of rendering it. The only way he can attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ."

This is the only way the sinner can attain to righteousness, the only way he can form a character after the divine similitude.

Again, What is the only way the sinner can attain to righteousness, to obedience to the law?

"Bring to God the merits of Christ."

That brothers and sisters is faith, even living faith! See F.W.64.

"The matter of salvation is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." F.W.64.

At the time when Mrs. White wrote these words she stated that not one in one hundred understood this Bible truth that is so necessary to our present and eternal welfare. (1 S.M.360)

"Bring to God the merits of Christ."

What exactly happens when, with the simple faith of a little child, we bring to God the merits of Christ? (just as simple as that... bringing to God the merits of Christ, and this is our privilege to do so on a daily basis)

Immediately following these words, "Bring to God them merits of Christ," Mrs. White explains what happens:

1. the Father places the obedience of His Son to the sinner's account.

2. Christ's righteousness is accepted in place of man's failure.

3. The Father receives, pardons, justifies, the repentant, believing soul, treats him as though he were righteous, and loves him as He loves His Son...

And then she says, "This is how faith is accounted righteousness, and the pardoned soul goes on from grace to grace, from light to a greater light."

This is all found on page 101 of Faith & Works.

On page 94 we read, "When we seek to gain Heaven through the merits of Christ the soul makes progress... we may go on from strength to strength, from victory to victory, for through Christ the grace of God has worked out our complete salvation."

Notice that all of the above will take place in the life of the needy suppliant, when, with the simple faith of a little child, he/she brings to God the merits of Christ.

"Bring to God the merits of Christ."

Hence we read, "Unless he makes it his life business to behold the uplifted Savior and to accept the merits which it is his privilege to claim, the sinner can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." T.M.93.

So brother, sister, What must we do in order to be saved? What is our life business?

"Bring to God the merits of Christ."

"The matter of salvation is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." F.W.64.

sky

[JoeMo]

Sky,

Again - nice, thoughtful post. I appreciate the eloquence you bring to this forum and the relevance you bring to EGW's writings.

Be Blessed Brother,

JoeMo

[skyblue888]

Sky,

Again - nice, thoughtful post. I appreciate the eloquence you bring to this forum and the relevance you bring to EGW's writings.

Be Blessed Brother,

JoeMo

What eloquence I have found in Mrs. White's writings? Yes, absolutely!

Thanks for your refreshing comment JoeMo.

I praise God.

sky

[Gibs]

FW 64 EGW states the way of salvation is so simple, then we don't understand it.

Yes that is a very true statement. And Jesus stated,

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Why is the question? Because the narrow way isn't the way of man.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

Gibs,

I perceive that you are huge on commandment keeping. Here's one :

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:34-35)

"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you." (John 15:12)

"Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for HE WHO LOVES HIS NEIGHBOR HAS FULFILLED THE LAW." (Romans 13:8)

Maybe I'm thick as a brick, but where's the love? I feel a lot of fear, warning, guilt, judgement, and condemnation from your posts; but I don't feel the love! But hey - maybe it's just me. If we're gonna keep the Commandments, we might as well keep all of them. Here's some advice directly from Jesus:

"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you." (Matt. 7:2)

“ Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned." (Luke 6:37)

No judgement or condemnation from here; just asking for a little understanding from you for those of us who may not be as far along the path of overcoming as you are.

I'm definitely in agreement with you JoeMo, just a little to much judging going on. As you mentioned, each one of us are in different places in our walk with our Lord and Savior. We should be helping one another, encouraging one another and not discouraging a weaker Christian's as Paul talks about.