Apparent Contradiction that I need help with.

[Robert]

God is sovereign; and He can do whatever He wants.

Yes, God is sovereign...Satan wouldn't exist if God had not created Him. Remember, God knew Lucifer wold rebel, but He created him anyway. Why? That can't be answered. We'll have to wait on that one.

However, I strongly disagree that God can do what He wants. God is agape. Agape is not just one of His attributes - rather agape is God. "God is love". Hence, it is not within God's character to do anything outside agape. Agape, we are told, is not self-seeking. He lives to serve, both His friends and His enemies. There's no partiality with God. Hence is it impossible for God to sin.

[Gibs]

1Co 10:26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

Ps 24:1 ¶ A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

In a way, I have to agree with Robert on this. I don't think it is because God can't do what He wants; sometimes He won't do what He might want because of agape love; and out of respect for our free will. We frequently suffer; not because of a direct "act of God"; but because of the evil decisions we or others make of our own free will.

Thanks for clarifying, Robert!

[Robert]

1Co 10:26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

Ps 24:1 ¶ A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Well, God owns a piece of ruined real estate. I'm sure He doesn't want it back.

Genesis 1:26, 28. God created this earth for man and, therefore, gave him dominion over it.

Luke 4:5, 6. By deceiving our first parents (Adam and Eve) and causing them to fall, Satan took possession of this world and made it his own; this is based on the principle recorded in 2 Peter 2:19. Please note that Jesus did not question Satan’s claim that the world was delivered to him.

John 14:30. Since the fall of man, Satan has become the “prince of this world.”

2 Corinthians 4:3-4. Paul refers to Satan as the “god of this world.”

1 John 5:19. The whole world, apart from the Christian, is under the control of Satan, or as the Greek text actually says, “the wicked one.”

[Gibs]

Man was to care for this earth and not pollute and destroy it but man has joined Satan as destroyer. It is groaning terribly and is very sick.

When He comes He will plow and bust it all up by the sound of the earthquakes and upheavals, mountains thrown down, but after He is done with the second resurrection he recreates it anew again with no sign of the curse.

Then He puts it in the hands of His Loyal ones who will always do His Will. They are proven overcomers.

Most have been blinded and deceived by the usurper who now claims he is god of this world in overcoming Adam and most since. Here in the very end it is the very few too that are not taken in by the master deceiver.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[M. T. Cross]

We have a commandment that tells us to not murder, but God did command the forces of Israel to attack the local people in the holy land. How do we explain this?

So alex...... has your question been answered?

[CoAspen]

A quick search of forum topics and post will supply the answer. Does God kill, did God kill. etc has been discussed many times in the past...one of those topics that gets hashed and rehashed over and over!

[M. T. Cross]

A quick search of forum topics and post will supply the answer. Does God kill, did God kill. etc has been discussed many times in the past...one of those topics that gets hashed and rehashed over and over!

Its more interesting than the womens ordination and gay people debates though I think.....

I was thinking about the whole thing last night. Comparing the myths of my religion, other religious myths and Biblical myth. These were all recorded in and about a time of earths history that was a fair bit more savage than it is now. Or should I say that the savagery was more openly displayed. If you wanted a land you walked in with swords and spears and took it. That simple. There was no Geneva Convention rules of war or no United Nations over seeing how anything was done. I also think people were more dependant on their Gods at the time as well. So if you wanted to do something you could claim - and possibly believe with all your heart that your God wanted you to do it.

Something I would like to point out though. To the best of my knowledge prior to the Israelites leaving Egypt there were very few wars ever fought over religious beliefs. Most people were of the "you have your gods and we have ours, but we do want your land" kind of persuation. Oh sure they might burn temples or smash altars in the course of war, its a great strategy to anger someone, but it was usually about land. In my studies of Northern Europe there was no war known prior to the Christian invasions that was fought over beliefs. If you ask me (and no-one really did but whatever) I think the Bible may have the actions of different Gods from one pantheon represented as the actions of one God. If that is the case much of the period of time in the old testament was heavily influenced by this pantheons God of War.

[JoeMo]

Robert,

You claim God doesn't want His ruined real estate back. He DOES want it back. He wants to restore it to its original pristene condition. He's coming back to take the "keys" back from satan; and establish the earth as His throne. Those who are on His side will be protected from the fiery chaos associated with the restoration (re-creation) of the heavens and the earth. Those who oppose Him will be left to suffer the consequences of their freely chosen rebellion.

[doug yowell]

[Robert]

Robert,

You claim God doesn't want His ruined real estate back. He DOES want it back.

This planet is going to be destroyed and in its place a new heaven and earth. So no, He doesn't want this planet....

[fccool]

I hear a lot of arguments here that are very logically inconsistent, as these ussualy are of several types:

1) God has to stop the disease of sin from spreading by killing people

2) These people would not have repented anyway

3) It was a "Holy War"

So, the real question would be, why wouldn't it apply today? If a guy goes on a rampage saying that God told him to kill a group of people who would not repent to stop sin from spreading, and that he fullfills his mission of the "Holy War", what wouldn't make it ok now?

Why would God all of a sudden change him mind and be much nicer? Isn't the whole point that God's morality is consistent, and thus it is worthy of being applied and lived by?

So, Gibbs, since God knows which people don't repent, which probably would make it to be quite a bit of people worldwide, why would God tolerate them now?

It's simply puzzling to me that people say that Jesus has not returned yet, because God is trying to save as many people as he can, and that He is patient with humankind, not wishing anyone to perish... and yet cutting down yet unborn, or barely talking children is fine in certain context?

It's only wonder we had dark ages and inquisition!

[JoeMo]

FC,

Just cuz people say things about God on here doesn't make it so. That probably goes for stuff I say, too.

For instatnce - "God has to stop the disease of sin from spreading by killing people"? I don't know who said that (I don't read everything on here); but that's crazy. Jesus showed that when God wants to stop a disease, he just heals it.

As far as "the real question would be, why wouldn't it apply today?" God is always the same. The reason we don't see the anger an vengeance today is that circumstances are different. We live under a new agreement with God. At Jesus' death, God spent all of His wrath and anger towards sin on Jesus. The penalty for sin has been paid. There is no reason for God to be "mad" any more. The question now is "will you accept the grace and freedom offered by Jesus and obtain eternal life?" If we don't accept it, we are still under that old, obselete covenant and subject to that OT wrath.

You ask about the injustices still going on here like "cutting down yet unborn, or barely talking children is fine in certain context". That isn't God's doing. it is collateral damage caused by selfish and destructive choices made by men; and God reluctantly allowing it out of respect for man's free will. When that OT wrath I spoke of in the preceding paragraph is visited upon those who turn away from God's grace, that will stop.

[JoeMo]

If someone or some disaster were to vandalize my home or even destroy it; that doesn't mean I don't want it any more. I would restore it or rebuild it. That's just what God is going to do with this dear planet of His - He will restore it to it's original Edenic state - probably better.

Also, He (Jesus) plans to live here for 1,000 years before he "remodels". That tells me He still wants it.

[Tallmark]

God kills no man (or woman or child either). Christ never ordered killing. When the apostles wanted to call down fire from heaven, he said "You don't know what manner of spirit you are speaking." In other words, death and killing are from the devil. There is more to explain than there is room for on this forum. Check out "As He Is" by 4th angel publications http://www.amazon.com/As-He-4th-Angel-Publications/dp/1572588004

[Robert]

That tells me He still wants it.

Okay, but this world will be melted down to nothing. It will completely be dissolved. Then He calls a new world into existence.

2 Peter 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens (atmosphere) will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements (of which this world is made) will melt with fervent heat! 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

[doug yowell]

It still amuses me how these threads can go so quickly into so many completely different directions.

[Woody]

It still amuses me how these threads can go so quickly into so many completely different directions.

Yeah. I suppose it mimics normal conversations.

[Gibs]

For sure we can know, God is just in all He has done in the past and will be in the future. All questionings will be answered by Him to all in the day our case comes up before Him. All your questions are chronicled, not one is lost and all will be answered.

"The Judge of all the earth will render a just decision. He will not be bribed; He cannot be deceived. He who made man, and whose are the worlds and all the treasures they contain--He it is who weighs character in the balance of eternal justice. . . . Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God. Each must meet the great Judge face to face." {HP 360.6}

"In the presence of the assembled inhabitants of earth and heaven the final coronation of the Son of God takes place. And now, invested with supreme majesty and power, the King of kings pronounces sentence upon the rebels against His government, and executes justice upon those who have transgressed His law and oppressed His people. . . . As . . . the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. . . . {FLB 356.2}

Above the throne is revealed the cross; and like a panoramic view appear the scenes of Adam's temptation and fall, and the successive steps in the great plan of redemption. . . . {FLB 356.3}

The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God, on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them. It is now evident to all that the wages of sin is not noble independence and eternal life, but slavery, ruin, and death. . . . Satan seems paralyzed as he beholds the glory and majesty of Christ. He who was once a covering cherub remembers whence he has fallen. A shining seraph, "son of the morning;" how changed, how degraded! . . . {FLB 356.4}

Satan sees that his voluntary rebellion has unfitted him for heaven. He has trained his powers to war against God; the purity, peace, and harmony of heaven would be to him supreme torture. His accusations against the mercy and justice of God are now silenced. The reproach which he has endeavored to cast upon Jehovah rests wholly upon himself. And now Satan bows down, and confesses the justice of his sentence. . . . With all the facts of the great controversy in view, the whole universe, both loyal and rebellious, with one accord declare, "Just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints." Revelation 15:3. {FLB 356.5}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: alexamasan

We have a commandment that tells us to not murder, but God did command the forces of Israel to attack the local people in the holy land. How do we explain this?

First,if you continue reading the whole story you'll notice that much of the time the inhabitants of the land were the ones doing the attacking.Second,God prohibits murder not war against evil. Third, the land of Caanan and quite frankly all the earth belonged to God and He could give it to who(m?)ever He felt would treat it best.The Amorites had their four hundred+ year chance and not only failed to respond to God's standard of care but actually had become so evil that they were sacrificing their own children to false gods. Fourth,if you read the entirety of God's instructions you'll find that each city approached by Israel was first given the opportunity to surrender. Why do you think God spared Rahab and her family? In our sophisticated,NT informed contempory culture of love,love, love (alleged)we seem to overlook just how perverted and evil the land of Caanan actually was. We tend to project that they were just like we are today here in the USA.The short answer would be that there is no contrediction (sorry for the extra commentary)

Excellent summary of the truth on this matter.

[Kevin Straub]

I just came across this discussion while doing a search to see if the domain name for our ministry is available--"4th Angel Publications" and it really looks like the folks here could use some help.

I have been seriously studying issues in God's Character in a dedicated and systematic fashion for almost ten years. I am not a high-end theologian like the smart fellows over at the Biblical Research Institute, but I do have a minor in theology. However, no person needs a university degree to sort this out. The Bible is sufficient. The writings of Ellen White are also given full credence as authoritative and inspired information for God's people on this subject.

If the kind people here would like to receive the offer of my time, I will put my oar in on this discussion. Ignorance and cavilling are not helpful in any way. The subject requires humility and an attitude of a student in need of education, with eyes set on the goal of graduation. This subject involves a shift of paradigm in how we have thought about God and is in fact at the very core of the great controversy. We should not let ourselves become so inflamed with pride of opinion that our passion descends to hurling mud at one another. All too often, I have seen that well-meaning people can become unglued when the keys to unlock this topic are used and the arguments become unanswerable. It is the natural progression of the carnal heart to then turn upon the messenger and roll out the "ad hominem" line of defense, i.e., descend to the level of personal denigration. We won't do that, here.

This is just an introduction of myself to this forum and this discussion. We have recently published a serious book on the subject, entitled "As He Is: Issues in the 'Character of God' Controversy" and you can find it over at TEACH Services, Inc. Or email me for a better price, straub@direct.ca

Now, the original question posited in this discussion is with regard to the commands of the Lord involving the use of the sword, i.e., the use of force, of violence. It is easy to show what is in fact the mechanism of wrath and we could discuss that and perhaps should discuss that first. But after we nail down the nature of God's wrath (a subject that I see got banned elsewhere on this forum, unfortunately--btw, we can't shut out the topic...the stones will cry out...it will keep coming back in various forms) this question invariably arises, as it should, as it MUST. You see, when we discover that a careful examination of God's wrath reveals that He is not pro-actively violent, which is to say, He does not fabricate and use weapons of mass destruction nor even of individual destruction, in the sense that humans understand destroy, but that He stands down in His role and gives the subject over to one of four areas of destructive force, we are then in position to move on to this question of God's commands to destroy, which were given on many occasions to put down internal dissent or to come against the enemies of the surrounding nations. This particular aspect of the "Character of God message" (aka "CoG" message) is vital for a full understanding of the Character of God. Very few teachers of the CoG understand it well enough to embrace it, unfortunately. Our friend Herb Montgomery over at Renewed Heart Ministries is now moving into it and we praise God. Herb speaks about God making "accomodations" to meet the people where they are at. We have labelled this modality of God's conduct as "Permissive Will," "Permissive Command," or "Permissive Paradigm." All of this is speaking of the simple truth of God's forbearance, or grace. Once we have made the shift in our thinking, it all becomes so simple. In a very bried nutshell--and we can unpack this over the days ahead--God meets people where they are at and if He is to stay 'in the picture' He must work with the material He is given to work with. God does not wholly cast off anyone because they have chosen their own way in certain areas. It is true that He does not condone any thinking or activity which is outside of the realm of righteousness and truth, but if a person or a people still desire God, then He continues with them, to guide and lead them up higher, to a better way. This is what we see with the first advent of Christ, when He taught that "eye for an eye" is not God's way, even though God, through Moses would have "given" this law. Those laws were based upon the common paradigm in law at that time and actually derive from the Babylonian code of Hammurrabi. We have an entire chapter in our book devoted to this. God permitted these laws because the people were not ready for the full glory of God's ways. Most people are still not ready, but the fact is that now the light on God's character as revealed in Christ is here. Even after 2000 years it has been tremendously difficult for this light to break through, but it is now happening. 4th angel brings in the glory of God, which is His character. We can prove this in inspiration.

So, I leave you to ponder this and will come back to talk more, if you will have me. Let me leave you with this thought about what inspiration has declared to be the content of the new light which was/is to come to God's people:

"At no period of time has man learned all that can be learned of the word of God. There are yet new views of truth to be seen, and much to be understood of the character and attributes of God..." (Fundamentals of Christian Education, p. 444).

[BobRyan]

It is easy to show what is in fact the mechanism of wrath and we could discuss that and perhaps should discuss that first. But after we nail down the nature of God's wrath (a subject that I see got banned elsewhere on this forum, unfortunately--btw, we can't shut out the topic...

Ok - now that is pretty funny.

I have not been on this board for a while so I don't know the context for that statement.

But on the surface it sounds like maybe one (or more) of our 28 fundamental beliefs has been "banned"?

There must be story there or something.

in Christ,

Bob

[JoeMo]

Kevin -

Quite the introductory post. You are welcome to post on this subject and/or many other interesting (or just plain amusing) topics. Don't hesitate to shout the occasional praise in the "Shout Box" on the right towards the top of the page.

FYI the "God's Wrath" topic got locked out because people got unhinged, angry, defensive, judgemental, insulting - whatever you want to call how negative it became. It is a valid topic as much as "God's Love" is a valid topic.

You stated, "All too often, I have seen that well-meaning people can become unglued when the keys to unlock this topic are used and the arguments become unanswerable. It is the natural progression of the carnal heart to then turn upon the messenger and roll out the "ad hominem" line of defense, i.e., descend to the level of personal denigration." That can happen here on jst apbout any topic that evolves (or devolves) into a "saved by grace" or "saved by works" debate. I haven't studied the subject as much as you have, but i have found that many of the actions that people have interpreted as God's wrath are actually done out of love to protect His people in the long run.

At any rate, welcome!

[BobRyan]

FYI the "God's Wrath" topic got locked out because people got unhinged, angry, defensive, judgemental, insulting - whatever you want to call how negative it became. It is a valid topic as much as "God's Love" is a valid topic.

Thanks for helping out with that.

-- ad hominem not welcome no matter what the topic - I think we can all agree on that.

in Christ,

Bob

[Kevin Straub]

The subject of the wrath of God/Character of God is one of the hot button subjects that has been seen bringing out pulsating veins in the temple area or peculiar twitches in the corner of the eye. Occasionally we witness spittle flying out of the mouth due to uncontrollable verbal sputtering. I am not joking, unfortunately. The truth is, far too many who claim to be followers of Jesus have the idea that God asks us not to kill our enemies so that He can do it Himself, instead. We love to think of how they are going to burn for what they did to us. We say, "Ohhh, they are going to meet the judgment. They are going to have to answer for that." When it is believed that God brings fire down on His enemies, then we don't have to really be much concerned about the malice we harbor in our hearts, for we are already created in the image of the God we hold dear. It is too hard to think of letting go of our desire for revenge. It is the fuel that keeps us watching the movies, when we see the bad guy "get his" we feel a visceral satisfaction. We want him to get it good. We have no problem smacking him down twofold, either. So, we acquiesce to the notion of simply being satisfied with "stroke for stroke, wound for wound."

Look at Marvin Moore's article "A Good and Angry God" in the August issue of SIGNS. The idea is explicitly promulgated in the standard theology when he sets God forth as the instigator (his word) of the seven last plagues as angry retribution on the wicked for their persecution of His people. This is not accurate at all. We know that it is Satan that plunges the world into the mayhem and destruction of the last plagues as God withdraws and gives Satan full control. This is explicitly taught in inspiration and the mechanism of wrath is explicitly taught in the Bible as God turning away, "hiding His face." Marvin introduces his article by comparing God's feelings to human feelings, bringing in the cliche situation of a man walking in on a crime scene in his home, where his daughter is being abused by an attacker, implying that God would feel "murderous" much as a human father might feel. He concludes his article by calling up the martyrs under the altar in Revelation 6:10, who call for revenge, saying that they are people who are "desperate for a God who will get worked up enough--angry enough, if you please--over the abuse they've been suffering that He will step in and do something about it." Jennifer Jill Schwirzer with Lesslie Kay in their book "A Deep But Dazzling Darkness" relate the story of a bully caught in the act by a protective father who picked up that perpetrator by the scruff and gave him a good shake and strong words and how this was a defining moment for the one bullied, who now felt a certain "rest in my father's love because of his wrath." Steve Wohlberg also weighs in in his book "The Character of God Controversy." I have had in-depth discussion with Steve and the same idea is promoted in his teaching--that God is going to unleash fury on those who have hurt His children and we can and should feel just great about that. This is all the standard paradigm in Adventism. And it is wrong.

Jesus is clear. When the disciples thought they would be on-track by calling fire down from God to burn up the Samaritans who refused them hospitality, we are told that He was PAINED at their lack of understanding of God. "The fact is," He told them, "you don't get God at all. Satan is the one who would burn up His enemies. I did not come to kill, but to save." We need to step back and give our head a good shake, realizing that this is truth. Jesus' main mission was to reveal the Father. Jesus said that He did nothing of Himself but whatever He sees the Father doing, this is the same thing that He does (John 5:19). Jesus, when reviled, reviled not again. Jesus taught to turn the other cheek. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb. 13:8)and God is unchanging (Mal. 3:6). Therefore, God does not sacrifice Himself for His enemies one day but on another day burn them up with molten sulphur on their heads, while injecting His life-sustaining force into them to keep them alive while they suffer consciously on for pre-determined periods of time in penalty for their sins.

SdA doctrine of the destruction of the wicked is held out as such a wonderful advance on eternal hell and I suppose it is, when compared to the notion of eternal suffering, but it is still a grotesque portrayal of God and is fundamentally flawed in the face of what we hold out to be the primary principles of God's government as 1)freedom of choice and 2)non-coercion. These principles are rooted in love, which IN ORDER TO BE LOVE, MUST BE FREE. You cannot have a marriage proposition with a .44 on the table. In other words, God cannot be the one to stand as the executioner of the sentence against transgression. It totally defies logic and everything we innately understand to be true about love itself, that the one who would woo us to Himself would be the one to kill us if we reject Him.

We must paint this entire matter in stark, bold lines. There are no grey areas, here, at all. God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. This is the message. What is the light? It is life. John said that in Him was light and the light was the life of men. Therefore darkness is death and there is none of it in God to mete out. That all belongs to the realm of the beast. In HER was found the blood of prophets and saints and in fact, to come to think of it, of ALL that were slain upon the earth (Rev. 18:24). ALL doesn't leave any that were slain by God.

I am here to talk more, if anyone wants to walk with me a few steps or even go on a long journey. I have been at this for thousands of hours and I have no doubt that it is present truth. We have many things to learn, and MANY, MANY to unlearn. So says the inspired messenger. The darkness of the misapprehension of God is being lifted. Some will not come to the light because they love the darkness. Bitter malice and revenge are too dear to give up. But it has to go. There is none of it in God's kingdom. He does not burn up His enemies. Is there a fire? Oh, yes. We have done extensive work on this subject and it isn't what people think. Church! It is time to wake up. There was a time of ignorance, but now God is commanding repentance. There is no excuse for continuing in this gross distortion of God's Character. Lay aside all selfish pursuits and get ready to study this thing out. It is vital for the final generation to understand, especially those who would think to have a part in the giving of the third angel's message.