Apparent Contradiction that I need help with.

[pegleg bates]

We have a commandment that tells us to not murder, but God did command the forces of Israel to attack the local people in the holy land. How do we explain this?

Because God gave us violence to wage in his honor.

[video:youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=DXY23gsHXXo

[Kevin Straub]

Kevin Straub quoted from Proverbs:

"But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death" (Prov. 8:36).

Doug Yowell responded:

"So if those who would rather love death than love God are killed by Him then what's the problem, even they will love what He will do?"

Kevin replies:

Doug, this is actually too hasty of a response that you have made, as I don't think you have thought it through. In our study of the final struggle of the impenitent at the GWT judgment, we find that they do not love what God is doing but they do acknowledge that they can not go on. They are in full realization of several facts:

1. They have chosen self-governance based upon love for self and rejected God and His ways of love for others.

2. They understand that only in God is there to be a continuance of life because He is Life itself.

3. They know that they have no possibility of returning to God because their sorrow is not repentance, it is sorrow that things are the way they are and that they cannot have life on their own terms.

4. They understand that God is not arbitrary and that God is not going to kill them, but they must give in to their choice which means they will die.

They give in, in spite of the fact that they want to live. The agony is terrible as they come to terms and death is a sweet release. When they give in, God gives them up. This isn't killing them; this is letting them unplug from Him. Remember, as we have defined according to the Scriptures, that wrath is the hiding of God's face, His "giving over," it is not His use of violence by His own hand.

"In His great suffering, Christ felt no pang of bitterness against His Father. He felt no remorse for His own sins, but for the sins of the fallen race. But those who refuse the gift of Christ will one day feel the sting of remorse. Entire obedience to the law of God is the condition of salvation. Those who refuse this, who refuse to accept Christ, will become embittered against God. When punished for transgression, they will feel despair and hatred. This will be the experience of all who do not enter into Christ's suffering; for it is the sure consequence of sin.

We read of chains of darkness for the transgressor of God's law. We read of the worm that dieth not, and of the fire that is not quenched. Thus is represented the experience of every one who has permitted himself to be grafted into the stock of Satan, who has cherished sinful attributes. When it is too late, he will see that sin is the transgression of God's law. He will realize that because of transgression, his soul is cut off from God, and that God's wrath abides on him. This is a fire unquenchable, and by it every unrepentant sinner will be destroyed. Satan strives constantly to lead men into sin, and he who is willing to be led, who refuses to forsake his sins, and despises forgiveness and grace, will suffer the result of his course" (Signs of the Times, April 14, 1898).

[Kevin Straub]

Originally Posted By: alexamasan

We have a commandment that tells us to not murder, but God did command the forces of Israel to attack the local people in the holy land. How do we explain this?

Because God gave us violence to wage in his honor.

[video:youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=DXY23gsHXXo

The movie clip carries this line. Do you believe it? A lot of people do. Do you want to discuss this topic that you have raised? Is it worth me giving my time to spell it out? I have a hard time knowing whether I should enter into these discussion boards, they can be a black hole for a person's time and energy and people are far too often only interested in hearing themselves talk. We have studied these issues for years and have some insights. To share them in a few paragraphs doesn't do the topic a lot of justice and it doesn't provide us with the necessary space to properly supply the evidences for our position. But I'll leave you with this: God loves us. Humanity has a dark mind and corrupt understanding of Who He is and how He operates. We who have been studying this topic don't believe that God ever kills or uses violence to achieve His purposes. We do not deny that He gave instructions in violence. But this was under a certain modality which has been called "accommodative will" or "permissive will." This is simply another name for grace and forbearance through times of ignorance.

Just for one instance, please compare the idea that:

Jesus came teaching that rules for divorce do not come from God, but that because of man's hard-heartedness, or "own-way-ness," there were laws put in place to mitigate the harsh reality of what man was doing,

with:

the idea that Jesus taught to turn the other cheek and love ones enemies.

The ways of human recompense, judgment, and justice, as seen in human civil codes, are not God's ideas. They are man's. God will advise, even within faulty paradigms, in order to preserve as much as can be preserved within a faulty paradigm. The less men would cling to their ways, the more God can lead them up and out of their ways and come into His ways. God is ever working to get us entirely out of our faulty paradigms wherein He functions as our God still, not entirely abandoning us to our folly, and into His perfect will, where we are totally in touch with His heart. As such, we would not ever go to war. This is strictly of Satan. Even when the wars were with Israel's enemy nations, the paradigm of war is Satan's. Not God's.

There is much more to be said and shown from inspiration, but not unless there is serious interest in the topic for the sake of learning rather than argument and debate.

[pegleg bates]

We who have been studying this topic don't believe that God ever kills or uses violence to achieve His purposes. We do not deny that He gave instructions in violence. But this was under a certain modality which has been called "accommodative will" or "permissive will." This is simply another name for grace and forbearance through times of ignorance.

[Kevin Straub]

"Indignus"--

You said:

"The idea of "accomodative will" only applies to cases in which God intervenes in a pre-existing conflict. However, God himself is the instigator in most cases."

I would be grateful, as a Bible student, to know that I am talking to one who has the ability to do more than make sweeping statements. What is actually necessary is to "bring the Word." Anything less is gas which will be consumed by the Word of the Lord;-) I am just saying, please give examples to support your assertions.

I am sorry that your mind is so made up on this. The notion that God gave us violence with which to vanquish our enemies, as you have posited as a viable function of our Christianity, is foreign to the Scriptures and I must declare that many would actually find this to be quite a repugnant belief, when stated in this way, but I thank you for your honesty because it casts light on what one must actually believe when they hold to the idea that God is a killer.

We must look to Christ as our primary interpreter of the Scriptures. There is more than meets the eye with the language of the Bible and it does interpret itself. But after this response I won't spend any further time with you on this, as per your request, unless you wish to thoughfully engage with what I have to bring from the Word. Also, if you think you have nothing to learn, then don't go back through the last few pages on this thread and read my little essays, because you would already have made up your mind that you have it figured out; you have nothing to learn, nothing to unlearn. You would find my work incomprehensible to your old wineskin. (If I may offer a little unsolicited advice: we must learn how to listen more before making sweeping judgments based upon foregone conclusions which in themselves were formulated upon a limited set of data and/or a thin, inadequate interpretation of that data.)

Before I leave you to continue to enjoy the satisfaction you have in the current level of understanding and knowledge which you own, I want to quote you and comment just a little further, for the benefit of other readers, if not perchance you also may read on and benefit personally.

You said:

"God's stance on violence is neither encrypted nor allegorical, because it is written in literal plain text, so there is nothing you could say to change my mind short of rewriting the scripture."

An examination of this statement in the light of the Word will reveal if it is so.

"And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.

And all flesh shall see that I the LORD have kindled it: it shall not be quenched.

Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?" (Eze. 20:47-49).

"Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.

Let them melt away as waters [which] run continually: [when] he bendeth [his bow to shoot] his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces" (Ps. 58:6-7).

Let us have Deuteronomy cast some light on the previous text. In chapter 31, we have the definition of God's anger and the first mention of Him "hiding His face," (note that "first mention" is a hermeneutical principle, in that it identifies keys to interpret the rest of Scriptures:

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God [is] not among us?

And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods (vv. 17-18).

Now, drop down into chapter 32 and read slowly, digest the riches that are revealed herein:

And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end [shall be]: for they [are] a very froward generation, children in whom [is] no faith.

They have moved me to jealousy with [that which is] not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with [those which are] not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.

[They shall be] burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust

The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling [also] with the man of gray hairs (vv.20-25).

God's arrows are His Word, His truth and when they are rejected, God must give them over to the results of not having God. The Bible language represents God as the instigator of the resulting calamities as though God simply shot carnal arrows, but this is not the case. God sends His Word, wherein is the way to life and the secret of being hid in Him, but when that Word is repudiated, what can the Almighty do? It is then that He represents His Word as destroying them. It isn't that He has to reach down and exert violence to take care of thier waywardness. The results are natural. Therefore, God doesn't "move them to jealousy" but gives humans over to the exercise of their own sin and its results (32:21). This is how it is that God "kills" and "wounds" (v. 39). This is how He "whets His glittering sword" (another metaphor--please use your search functions and realize that the Bible is chock full of allegory and encryption when it comes to how He metes out violent reward) and "renders vengeance to His enemies" and "rewards them that hate Him) (v. 41). This is how He makes His "arrows drunk with blood" and "devours much flesh with His sword" (v. 42).

"The LORD thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered his voice.

And he sent out arrows, and scattered them; lightning, and discomfited them" (2 Sam. 22:14, 15).

Notice the Hebrew poetry in the above which would in the chiastic form in which it is written (AB|BA) equate His voice with arrows; the thunder with the lightning and all of these "discomfited them" (defeated them). See also Ps. 77:17, 18.

Please don't make your first line of research to understand God and violence by the Old Testament language or by the actions of men, even David, who was "after God's own heart." Obviously David was not after God's heart in everything, else he would have been able to build the temple. But he was not given to build the temple because he was "a man of war, and hast shed blood" (1 Chron. 28:3).

Back to those arrows:

See Psalm 45 and find Christ there, the Word of God, as an arrow of righteousness.

See Psalm 64 and see the arrows of the wicked as "bitter words" but God shoots His arrow back at them and wounds them. How? By making thier own tongue to fall back on themselves. When we do a proper study of the judgment, it is all about discovery and revelation and the triumph of truth; never about any question of might or pitting of violence against violence. That is so very shallow that we who are spiritual should not entertain any such notions even for a moment. God could cast all evil away by His might with a wave of His hand but this does nothing to win the day in the great controversy, which is over ideology, over governmental principles, over loyalty of love vs. coercion through fear.

Eze. 5:16 speaks about "evil arrows of famine" that the Lord would send. Famine, evil beasts, pestilence, and blood, the sword. The Lord's Word declared is a double-edged sword. Received, it brings peace and comfort; rejected, it severs the connection to the Almighty and by the Lord's declaration the evil will come, even as it is depicted as coming from Him. This is language. It is only because He gives over. See Ps. 78 for many interesting clues. In the KJV we see that He sent the plagues by sending evil angels. God doesn't actually work in tandem or in partnership with demons, but He gives over their hand when He is rejected.

Zech. 9:13-16 is fraught with meaning, depicting God's arrows (His Word) as going forth in His people. In the eschaton, this is the Loud Cry under the latter rain, which is the revelation of His character (glory) which covers the whole earth and brings the final crisis to a victorious close for God's people and destruction to all the world as it is given entirely over to Satan and chaos, the result of having darkness to rule.

May God bless each reader of the Word and quicken our minds and hearts to receive it aright, to His glory and praise, which are not EVER found in the carnal sword, the use of which is antithetical to all that Jesus tried to teach us. "Peter, put up your sword. He who lives by it dies by it."

[pegleg bates]

I would be grateful, as a Bible student, to know that I am talking to one who has the ability to do more than make sweeping statements. What is actually necessary is to "bring the Word." Anything less is gas which will be consumed by the Word of the Lord;-) I am just saying, please give examples to support your assertions.

I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this topic further. I may have misspoken when I said that God's stance on violence is not allegorical. What I meant to say is that God's literal actions supersede the parabolic passages that can be interpreted any number of ways. Please consider a few examples below. I think you will find that these literal acts outweigh any interpretation of poems and parables.

God kills all the wicked on Earth(Genesis 8)

21 Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.

God burns the wicked cities(Genesis 19)

24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

God commands death on the wicked Exodites(Exodus 32)

27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.

God declares war on the Midianites(Numbers 31)

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.”

God commands the conquest of Canaan(Numbers 33)

50 On the plains of Moab by the Jordan across from Jericho the Lord said to Moses, 51 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you cross the Jordan into Canaan, 52 drive out all the inhabitants of the land before you. Destroy all their carved images and their cast idols, and demolish all their high places. 53 Take possession of the land and settle in it, for I have given you the land to possess. 54 Distribute the land by lot, according to your clans. To a larger group give a larger inheritance, and to a smaller group a smaller one. Whatever falls to them by lot will be theirs. Distribute it according to your ancestral tribes.

55 “‘But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides. They will give you trouble in the land where you will live. 56 And then I will do to you what I plan to do to them.’”

God leads the conquest of Canaan(Joshua 1-12)

Joshua 11:16 So Joshua took this entire land: the hill country, all the Negev, the whole region of Goshen, the western foothills, the Arabah and the mountains of Israel with their foothills, 17 from Mount Halak, which rises toward Seir, to Baal Gad in the Valley of Lebanon below Mount Hermon. He captured all their kings and put them to death. 18 Joshua waged war against all these kings for a long time. 19 Except for the Hivites living in Gibeon, not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. 20 For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

God leads wars against the Philistines(1 Samuel - 2 Samuel)

2 Samuel 5:17 When the Philistines heard that David had been anointed king over Israel, they went up in full force to search for him, but David heard about it and went down to the stronghold. 18 Now the Philistines had come and spread out in the Valley of Rephaim; 19 so David inquired of the Lord, “Shall I go and attack the Philistines? Will you deliver them into my hands?”

The Lord answered him, “Go, for I will surely deliver the Philistines into your hands.”

Kevin, as you can see, there is no room to deny God's preference for violence as a solution to wickedness. There are many-many more examples, but I will leave it to you to seek out the real truth in the scripture. Do not be fooled by double-talkers who set up loopholes to deny what is plainly written in the Bible.

[Kevin Straub]

"Indignus" said:

"Kevin, as you can see, there is no room to deny God's preference for violence as a solution to wickedness. There are many-many more examples, but I will leave it to you to seek out the real truth in the scripture. Do not be fooled by double-talkers who set up loopholes to deny what is plainly written in the Bible."

Kevin Responds:

Indignus, God does not "prefer" violence as a "solution" to wickedness by any means! What a statement. I quote EGW freely, as this is an Adventist forum and I don't believe in lesser degrees of inspiration, taking her statements as serious input to our study on these issues. Listen:

"In striking contrast to the wrong and oppression so universally practised were the mission and work of Christ. Earthly kingdoms are established and upheld by physical force, but this was not to be the foundation of the Messiah's kingdom. In the establishment of his government no carnal weapons were to be used, no coercion practised; no attempt would be made to force the consciences of men. These are the principles used by the prince of darkness for the government of his kingdom. His agents are actively at work, seeking in their human independence to enact laws which are in direct contrast to Christ's mercy and loving-kindness.

Prophecy has plainly stated the nature of Christ's kingdom. He planned a government which would use no force; his subjects would know no oppression. The symbols of earthly governments are wild beasts, but in the kingdom of Christ, men are called upon to behold, not a ferocious beast, but the Lamb of God. Not as a fierce tyrant did he come, but as the Son of man; not to conquer the nations by his iron power, but "to preach good tidings unto the meek;" "to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;" "to comfort all that mourn." He came as the divine Restorer, bringing to oppressed and downtrodden humanity the rich and abundant grace of Heaven, that by the power of his righteousness, man, fallen and degraded though he was, might be a partaker of divinity" (Review and Herald, August 18, 1896).

As for being fooled by double-talkers who set up loopholes, you would be referring to the teachers of the Character of God message, of which I am one.

You have given a list of examples of the violent God. We can go down the list and work every one of these, but why don't we just pick one? Your choice.

[pegleg bates]

Indignus, God does not "prefer" violence as a "solution" to wickedness by any means! What a statement.

[Kevin Straub]

Alright, you don't want to examine an instance of where one reads a proactively violent God and another reads a God who acts in complete harmony with a non-violent character by giving over to outside forces, whether they be natural, human or demonic. I believe we have a strong position and build it from the keys given in Scripture itself.

I don't know what people are scared of but many are in your position and just put up the hand, seemingly unable to talk about it. The list you put up is not proof of anything, anymore than eternal hell people putting up their proof texts. You can claim to be a humble scholar all you want, but not being willing to have your assertions tested is not scholarly. The truth bears investigation, you know.

Go in peace.

"We are on dangerous ground when we cannot meet together like Christians, and courteously examine controverted points. I feel like fleeing from the place lest I receive the mold of those who cannot candidly investigate the doctrines of the Bible. {1SM 411.1}

Those who cannot impartially examine the evidences of a position that differs from theirs, are not fit to teach in any department of God's cause" (1SM 411.2).

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

The Lord God only had killed those whom were set and sealed against Him never to repent.

And only God knows those who are and are not His own.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

What I might believe today could change tomorrow.

God gets a bad rap for a lot of what wolves in sheep's clothing excercize in God's name.

" “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves."

Matthew 7:15 NKJV

"Therefore by their fruits you will know them."Matthew 7:20 NKJV

"He who does not love does not know God, for God is love."1 John 4:8 NKJV

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."Hebrews 13:8 NASB

One who has not read God's Word with the intent to find out Who He is and what He is about, has no right to pass judgement on His decisions about what He allows.

"And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart."Jeremiah 29:13 NKJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

(sorry for the extra commentary)

"Needed" is not "unnecessary".

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Satan wouldn't exist if God had not created Him.

"You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you."Eze 28:14 NKJV

God created Lucifer. Just as man must accept what he has become when following unrighteous behaviors, so Lucifer, son of the morning, made himself, satan.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

1Co 10:26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

Ps 24:1 ¶ A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

This planet is going to be destroyed and in its place a new heaven and earth. So no, He doesn't want this planet....

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

So, Gibbs, since God knows which people don't repent, which probably would make it to be quite a bit of people worldwide, why would God tolerate them now?

"Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!"Matthew 18:7 KJV

The fact that I cannot make ryme nor reason out of what God permits does not mean that He is deficient or contradictory. Those last two descriptive words can really be more certainly descriptive of men who are deficient in the leading of the Holy Spirit.

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come."John 16:13 ASB

God blesses!

[pegleg bates]

Alright, you don't want to examine an instance of where one reads a proactively violent God and another reads a God who acts in complete harmony with a non-violent character by giving over to outside forces, whether they be natural, human or demonic. I believe we have a strong position and build it from the keys given in Scripture itself.

Oh, I see. Now you are going to tell me that it was Satan, not God, behind those violent acts that I listed earlier. That is not what the Bible says. You are walking a slippery slope.

Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

[Gibs]

LifeHiscost,

I believe the world only goes on because of the righteous in Him on it and any that are yet to come. He does have an appointed time and I find that when the last one born that will come to repentance and does, then He can close it up in righteouness.

Why? Because He will save to the uttermost, He would have died for just one and will wait till that last one!

Yes He knew this all from the beginning, but it all has to play out to all His saved Host and Host of Angels. The reason I find is to set for eternity in all, the set in mind heart and soul to never dwelve in any sin or disobedience ever as we all have seen the awfull of it all and the cost to our God, His Redeemer and us.

Are we getting close? Yes. But He only knows how close. It is closer than most are seeing I am sure of that!

Come Lord Jesus, we know you can't though until it is time.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Kevin Straub]

Indignus--I continue to ponder your statements which are made with sincerity, as you read Scriptures for their "plain statements." As I look at your amazing conclusion, "Let us rejoice that He has given us this incredible gift [of violence] with which to vanquish our enemies!" I need to seek for a clarification. I can understand your making this statement with regard to ancient Israel and their use of the sword in carrying out the civil code, in putting down internal dissensions, and in overcoming national enemies. My question is how does this apply to us in our day and age, in the Christian era? I am very interested in your response.

[Kevin Straub]

You cannot make rhyme or reason of how or why God does what He does? That is quite a statement. I am glad that I am not in the dark as you are. Maybe a little less time with other things (the computer?) and more time on your knees and in the Word would help;-) I'm just sayin'--the answers are there. Let me help you in the right direction, if you will.

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD" Isa. 1:18a)

"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

"The secret [things belong] unto the LORD our God: but those [things which are] revealed [belong] unto us and to our children for ever, that [we] may do all the words of this law" (Deut. 29:29).

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise" (John 5:19).

"...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Show us the Father?" (John 14:9).

"For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed" (Mal. 3:6).

God did not give us violence as a means of punishing evildoers, putting down dissensions in the camp or vanquishing our enemies. Another poster on this discussion is maintaining that God gave us the gift of violence as a way of life. If God was the one who came up with that idea, then according to the principle of His unchanging character and law, He would still be operating by having us do violence. He would not have made Jesus to be the express image of His character and then have Him suffer violence at the hands of wicked men. He would have had His people take charge of the Romans! If the Lord was truly a "man of war", in the sense that we understand the phrase, Jesus would not have made the declarations as I quoted above and gone on to be non-violent right to the end.

Indeed the Holy Spirit will guide us into truth, even the truth about God's violence as depicted in Biblical language. In times of ignorance God has overlooked this thing, but the time is now here to repent of our misapprehension of God, roll up our sleeves and do some real study. It means searching with all our hearts. Looking to Jesus as our primary hermeneutic, we lay the foundation, realizing that God does not burn up His enemies by sending fire, in the sense that we ordinarily understand that statement and its words. God does send fire and it consumes sin. Sometimes the elements are involved in destruction "from God" as the Biblical language would depict, but this is not done as man would do it. Man creates a weapon and uses it by His own hand and will. God is holding back the weapons already in place which are poised for the destruction of everyone on this planet. When God gives over, according to the choice of the free moral agent, destruction ensues. He never destroys as man destroys. Man has to do something. God merely has to stand down in His role as Sustainer and Protector.

"Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God [is] not among us?

And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods" (Deut. 31:17, 18).

"Hast thou marked the old way which wicked men have trodden?

Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood:

Which said unto God, Depart from us: and what can the Almighty do for them?" (Job 22:15-17).

[pegleg bates]

Indignus--I continue to ponder your statements which are made with sincerity, as you read Scriptures for their "plain statements." As I look at your amazing conclusion, "Let us rejoice that He has given us this incredible gift [of violence] with which to vanquish our enemies!" I need to seek for a clarification. I can understand your making this statement with regard to ancient Israel and their use of the sword in carrying out the civil code, in putting down internal dissensions, and in overcoming national enemies. My question is how does this apply to us in our day and age, in the Christian era? I am very interested in your response.

Kevin, perhaps your eyes can be opened by the words of Christ himself.

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Matthew 10:34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— 36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.

The truth is there, should you choose to accept it.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Satan, not God, behind those violent acts that I listed earlier.

There is a difference between a violent act in order to preserve the children of God and a violent act to wrest the authority away from those who would rule in righteousness.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

"God did not give us violence as a means of punishing evildoers, putting down dissensions in the camp or vanquishing our enemies. Another poster on this discussion is maintaining that God gave us the gift of violence as a way of life. "

Granted not as a way of life. But in a world where most are not quite up to the perfect way your chosen scriptures might infer you've achieved?

"Then there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels. And the dragon lost the battle, and he and his angels were forced out of heaven."Revelation 12:7,8 NLT

"For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you.

The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience." Romans 13:3-5 NLT

God blesses!

[Kevin Straub]

Read me carefully, Indignus. I know that it is hard in this fast-paced electronic and visual age to digest words properly. We have allowed our minds to become conditioned to the point where we have the attention span of a mosquito on LSD ;-) What I said was that God "gives over" to outside forces, in a certain manner of speaking, because all of those forces are under His sovereign control. It gets into a bit of a discussion but I'll keep it simple. "Outside forces" are not all demonic. The bottom line is that sin destroys and Satan is the instigator of sin. Demonic forces, although not always the main agency behind the scenes, can be directly involved in destruction and this is one way that God "punishes." He gives over to Satanic forces in certain cases. When you read the Bible saying that God sends evil spirits, this is what is happening, as in:

"He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels [among them]" (Ps. 78:49).

"Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:" (Judges 9:23).

"Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee" (1 Kings 22:23).

There are more, but you get the idea.

EGW spells out plainly that the last plagues are God's strange act and in it He is handing the world and all its wicked inhabitants entirely over to Satan. (If you need references I can get them for you.) What happens is the result of demonic activity and of nature gone to chaos and of the natural consequences of toxic and destructive human activity.

Satan works in the laboratory of nature and can cause tremendous upheaval in the geosphere and the atmosphere. I believe that most, if not all of what he is doing in this realm is through human agencies, feeding technology and diabolical inspiration to men of war and men of greed, who hold high positions in the system of global governance, military, science and religion, who are the "elites" at the top of secret societies.

So yes, God gives over to demonic activity. Satan is very pleased to ply his violent trade and palm it off as God's work. We are familiar with the insurance claims against "acts of God." In Bible times, 9-11 or New Orleans or Japan would have been attributed directly to God having vengeance. Notice in Job, where Satan gets permission to try Job in contest over Job's motives in service to God. Have you ever noticed the language? Read with me what was reported by the messenger who came to Job with a report of the destruction that came from Satan:

"While he [was] yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee" (Job 1:16, emphasis added).

Did you know that Satan hides behind Bible language? Let me share this with you from The Great Controversy:

"Says the prophet, “O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;” “for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.” [Hosea 13:9; 14:1.] Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will (GC88 p. 36, par.1, emphasis added).

So, earlier I was saying that outside forces are not all demonic. God gives over in other areas. He will allow wickedness in the human heart to run to varying degrees of restraint, based upon the level of choice in the free moral agent. Ultimately, He will let the human wickedness run rampant as men become hardened in sin. Being a God of freedom, He has no choice but to give them over to their ways, because if He were to interfere against human will, He would be infringing. In not interfering, there will be destructive consequences, although not necessarily immediate. Satan may have a purpose for an individual or group and refrain from destroying them, having his eye on a greater harvest unto damnation which may be effected through human agencies under his influence.

Notice in Romans 1 that God gives over the human agents to thier own choices, in vv. 24, 26 and 28. The devil doesn't necessarily have to be directly involved. Evil is in the human heart and it will destroy self and others by its activity. Satan can be involved, however. Look at the case of David taking the census. First, the Bible says that the LORD incited David to this sin, but then we can read that it was actually Satan. Sometimes the Bible reveals to us what goes on "behind the scenes":

"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah" (2 Sam. 24:1).

"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel" (1 Chron. 21:1).

So, in this case, we have wickedness in the heart of the king, in response to Satan's temptation, as a result of God giving David over to Satan's suggestions.

God will give humans over to their willingness to be deceived. This is giving over to the human heart:

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thess. 2:11, 12).

God "takes the case in hand" by giving over to the natural course of sin. In the case of David and his son, Absolom, the Lord removed restraint from the boy:

"David had neglected the duty of punishing the crime of Amnon, and because of the unfaithfulness of the king and father and the impenitence of the son, the Lord permitted events to take their natural course, and did not restrain Absalom. When parents or rulers neglect the duty of punishing iniquity, God Himself will take the case in hand. His restraining power will be in a measure removed from the agencies of evil, so that a train of circumstances will arise which will punish sin with sin." (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 728, par. 1).

Isn't this all interesting? I sincerely do not believe that I am creating any loopholes or crafty arguments. I am showing the examples. You see, the problem I have with the standard paradigm is that it artificially creates a duality in God. In a nutshell: We have all these acts of violence written in language that says God is doing it. In many instances, we have the curtain drawn aside revealing the mechanism, behind the scenes. For instance, the Bible says that God killed Saul (1 Chron. 10:14) but we know that Saul fell on his sword in suicide (v. 4). The Bible says that the wrath of God slew the Israelites who gorged on bird flesh (Ps. 78:31) but He was simply giving them over to their own desire (v. 29). They made the choice to eat like pigs when their systems were in starvation mode and unable to handle it. Their murmuring would have allowed Satan to have his way. We have also the revelation that evil angels had to do with the plagues on Egypt, (v. 49) and that the pestilence came by His "giving over;" this is how the firstborn were destroyed. These things were not God acting in a proactively destroying measure as a man would take a weapon and wield it unto destruction! Man's ways are not God's ways. EGW says it many times:

"Jesus Christ is the Restorer. Satan, the apostate, is the destroyer. Here is the conflict between the Prince of life and the prince of this world, the power of darkness" (Christ Triumphant, p. 247, par .2).

A very important point is made in the above quote. Note that she hones on what is the focal point of the great controversy. We must get it right. God is not the destroyer! Again, in the case of the firstborn of Egypt, it was the destroyer who killed them. This would be an evil angel, probably Satan himself. The representations of angels of God doing a work of destruction are such that angels are restrainers and when they leave their posts, those outside forces, often demons, move in to do the destructive work. That is an extremely interesting study all in itself, and important for us to understand.

Back in Ps. 78, we see God giving His people over to the sword:

"He gave his people over also unto the sword; and was wroth with his inheritance" (v. 62).

God is represented as using enemy nations to punish His errant people. Again, this is giving over to outside forces.

Returning to my problem with the standard paradigm is that an artificial duality is created. In many cases we know how destruction occurs because it is revealed. Even so, the Bible language is such that "God did it." This is the Hebrew mind at work and it is the human misapprehension of God, darkened by Satan's original lies which are embedded deep in our psyche. However, we have many cases where the curtain is not drawn aside and here it is where we jump in with assumption that in those cases God actually did do it. We have no grounds for not applying the giving over principle. We aren't told anywhere that God sometimes does things one way and sometimes the other. We made that part up. This is called "eisegesis," but true "exegesis" means that we will determine the principles and interpret the difficult portions or portions that do not provide all the background, according to the principles and keys already given in Scriptures. We have Deut. 31:17, 18 as the "first mention" of God hiding His face, which is the "giving over" principle, and here it is that we have the mechanism for His anger revealed. In proper exegesis, we will apply this consistently, even when the actual mechanism is not revealed. Because the Scriptures are clear that God does not change, we have an additional principle to apply. If God destroys by giving over in one set of instances, then destroys proactively in another set of instances, we have a changeable God who acts according to a dual set of principles, light and darkness, or as a source of not only life, but also death. The Bible is point blank that death does not come from Him (see 1 John 1:5 cf. John 1:4).

I have to end this, but one more area where God gives up to outside forces is in the natural realm, as I mentioned in my original post. God holds the winds in check. When He gives over in nature, chaos ensues. In a careful study of the flood, this is revealed to be the case. Same with Sodom and Gomorrah. The ground opening up and swallowing the rebels of Korah, Dathan and Abiram is known today as a "sinkhole." I have seen them swallow men and vehicles in modern times.

I could write much more to help you out. In fact, you should get our book. You can find it at TEACH Services, Inc. and it is called As He Is: Issues in the 'Character of God' Controversy I hope you will avail yourself of it and become a true humble student of Scripture.

On a personal note, it is my prayer for you that you would stop acting like you have nothing to learn. You, along with millions, are in gross ignorance of the true character of God and display this very common crass and condescending attitude when met with the new paradigm, which comes across in lines such as "Oh, I see. Now you are going to tell me that it was Satan, not God, behind those violent acts that I listed earlier." It is very clear that there is a sarcastic tone behind these words and it does not behoove children of God and brethren to speak to each other in this way. I understand that you are a long way from understanding what I understand, but if you could manage to walk with me even through this one post, you would be that much more enlightened as to why I believe the way I do, if not even allowing a crack to develop in your own standard (false) paradigm.

Further, you quote to me Prov. 30:5,6, implying that the admonition is applicable to what I am presenting, insinuating that I am adding to God's word and being found to be a liar. I hope that you can see that this is inappropriate to a gentlemanly and Christian discussion; that I am not adding to the Word, but bringing the Word; that I am not lying; and that a little humility may bring you many riches in the glory of God (His character), if you would truly want to have His name (His character) written in your forehead.

Remember that the core of the great controversy is on these very issues. The advance of the reformation is here and it has to do with this subject. There are many discussions of new light by EGW, but not a lot of places where she names the subject. But she does name it:

"At no period of time has man learned all that can be learned of the word of God. There are yet new views of truth to be seen, and much to be understood of the character and attributes of God" (Fundamentals of Christian Education, p. 444, par.2).

[Kevin Straub]

Kevin posted:

Indignus--I continue to ponder your statements which are made with sincerity, as you read Scriptures for their "plain statements." As I look at your amazing conclusion, "Let us rejoice that He has given us this incredible gift [of violence] with which to vanquish our enemies!" I need to seek for a clarification. I can understand your making this statement with regard to ancient Israel and their use of the sword in carrying out the civil code, in putting down internal dissensions, and in overcoming national enemies. My question is how does this apply to us in our day and age, in the Christian era? I am very interested in your response.

Indignus responded:

Kevin, perhaps your eyes can be opened by the words of Christ himself.

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Matthew 10:34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— 36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.

The truth is there, should you choose to accept it.

Kevin replies:

Really? Is that it? I don't understand how Matt. 5:17 proves your point at all. Jesus said, in fact, that He didn't come to destroy men's lives but to save them. EGW says that He was pained at the suggestion of the disciples that they call down fire on the heads of the Samaritans who would not offer them hospitality. He told them that they were of the wrong spirit. That would be, umm, Satan's spirit. As far as Matt. 10:34, are you seriously asking us to interpret this as Jesus bringing violence against our enemies, even those of our own families? What about Matt. 5? What this means is that following Christ makes one hated of the world and of those of one's own household who are of the world. The sword is one of conflicting world views, of the followers of God's laws and ways as supreme over man's laws and ways. Our enemies may come at us in violence, but never are we to exercise violence against our enemies. Are you actually teaching that this is the case? Do go on and enlighten me as to what you are saying. Are you of the mindset that would fight back with violence in times of religious persecution? Is this where your view of God takes you? I appreciate your responses, thanks.