Apparent Contradiction that I need help with.

[skyblue888]

Another example which further establishes the fact that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression" (G.C.36) is the destruction of Satan and his evil angels after the 1,000 years as the most violent of the nations, who shall have been raised from their graves, shall turn against them with the fury of demons to bring them down to the Pit, to the lake of fire, and therefore, to ashes.

The language of the Bible is that God will do the work of destruction: "I will destroy thee O covering cherub... I will bring you down to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who behold thee."

Speaking of that time, we read,

"The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of Heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. 'Says the Lord: 'Because you have set your heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon you, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, and they shall defile your brightness. They shall bring you down to the Pit' 'I will destroy you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire... I will cast you down to the ground, I will lay you before kings, that they may behold you... I will bring you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold you... You shall be a terror, and never shall you be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8,16-19.

So the meaning of God's words is unmistakable. God will not interfere when the terrible of the nations shall turn their weapons against Satan and his angels (the very weapons that they had constructed and planned to used to overtake the City) and they will bring him down to the Pit: the lake of fire.

We may know that this fire by which Satan and his evil angels are to be brought down to ashes upon the earth will not come directly out from the Lord:

"I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way: they place themselves beyond His protection." E.G. White, Manuscript Releases, Vol.14,3.1.

After the 1,000 years, Satan and his evil angels will get a taste of their own medecine. They will have no protection from the countless millions who shall turn against them with the fury of demons.

Now we know that these words, "I will destroy thee O covering cherub," simply mean that God will not interfere when the most violent of the nations shall turn against them with the fury of demons.

sky

[Kevin Straub]

Sky, in our studies we have come into advanced light on the final fires and in this great unmasking of Satan and his empire of demons at the last, we have found that it is not that the weaponry is unleashed against Satan in hot internecine warfare. Remember, Satan is a spirit being and God does not arbitrarily demote him, locking him into a physical state which wherein he may be seized or abused. Note that the swords that are drawn are against the "beauty of his wisdom" and that which is defiled is his "brightness." This is where the Luciferian doctrine goes bankrupt. The ideology falls and he is seen for all that he is, a thief, liar and murderer who has no claim to god-status whatsoever and who has not been short-changed of his rightful place by God and who is nothing more that a brilliant being who got a big idea of self in his head and would destroy the entire universe with it in his insanity.

When Satan rushes in to arouse them to battle still, even after the revelation that has come to them in the great white throne scenario, it is apparent that they do not respond. They do not acknowledge his supremacy any longer and this is why "his power is at an end." A kingdom needs subjects and Satan no longer has any.

Their hatred and loathing is such that perhaps they would tear him limb from limb if they could get ahold of him, I do not know, but his death will not come from physical forces of enraged humans or even demons, nor will it come from physical fire. Spirit beings are not affected by fire.

The nature of Satan's government is exposed as not viable. The wicked will realize it and know also that they do not want God's way. They want life but they want it on their own terms. They realize that this is an impossibility because life is only found in God and to not want righteousness is to not want life. They will choose death.

The thing about self-exaltation is that it will use others to keep self on top and when threatened will kill others. The only problem is that those who serve such a king also have the same operating system. So, in the final analysis, it is seen that in this system, like it is said in "The Highlander" movies, "There can only be one." At the end there will be one Supreme ruler, but he will have destroyed everyone and everything to get there. God is letting the demonstration go right to "nth" degree and we will see it play out as it is written that Satan "burns" on beyond all the rest. He is the last one standing in his "kingdom." At this point he looks around and realizes he does not want life anymore. He has no subjects and is completely alone. There is no place found for him. He will beg release from the life of God that still keeps him. God, as a loving parent, weeping, will pull the plug on the life-support system that is keeping his irreparable child alive.

Write me at straub@direct.ca and I'll send you a copy of "The Ending of the Great Controversy: The Fires." It comes out of a study session with Elder Demetrius Leach, M. M. Campbell, my wife and myself at Marilyn's place in Boise, Idaho, over two years ago.

[skyblue888]

Kevin, earlier I quoted the following in regard to events taking place after the 1,000 years:

"The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of Heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them." G.C.672.

Do you not accept these words as literal:

"Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them." G.C.672.

Why would the Testimonies of the Spirit of God state that the terrible of the nations will, at that time, turn upon Satan and his evil angels with the fury of demons if they could not even touch them, let alone inflict pain upon them?

I believe chapter 28 of Ezekiel gives us a clue as to why they will be able to inflict physical pain upon them. Verses 9 and 10 bring out the interesting thought that Satan, after the 1,000 years, will be like a man and that he will die at the hand of wicked men:

"Will you yet say before him that slays you, I am God? But you shall be a man, and not God, in the hand of him that slays you. You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of foreigners; for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God... Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers upon you, the terrible of the nations... they shall bring you down to the pit, and you shall die the death of them that are slain in the midst of the seas." Ezekiel 28:9,10,7,8.

We both agree that it is not God that will slay Satan and his evil angels. These verses above clearly declare that Satan, after the 1,000 years, will be like a man and therefore he will have to fight like a man and he will die by the hand of wicked men. How could it be that he and his evil angels be reduced to fight like men after the 1,000 years? To me this suggests that 1,000 years of inactivity and mental agony will take a serious toll upon them, physically, mentally, and spiritually.

"For a thousand years, Satan will wander to and fro in the desolate earth to behold the results of his rebellion against the law of God. During this time his sufferings are intense. Since his fall his life of unceasing activity has banished reflection; but he is now deprived of his power and left to contemplate the part which he has acted since first he rebelled against the government of Heaven, and to look forward with trembling and terror to the dreadful future when he must suffer for all the evil that he has done and be punished for the sins he has caused to be committed." G.C.660.

Can we even begin to understand the effects of 1,000 years of intense mental suffering, physically, mentally, and spiritually while being totally inactive?

sky

*I do agree that the fire of mental agony will play an important part in the sufferings of Satan both during the 1,000 years and after before he is finally destroyed.

[pegleg bates]

From what I have read so far, I have not seen any evidence that Kevin is guilty of distorting the Bible. On the contrary.

Sky, Kevin claims that the copious amount of violence directly attributed to The Lord in the Bible is a typo. For example,

Exodus 32:27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.

Kevin believes that God did not command the Israelites to slay the wicked. He believes that this act is erroneously attributed to God. In other words, this part of the Bible was written incorrectly, because it doesn't agree with Kevin's beliefs, so it must be reinterpreted to have a different meaning.

That is called distortion. Let me know if this is not clear.

Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

[skyblue888]

Indignus, yes, the Lord did give the command. I don't remember reading anything from Kevin that would leave the least impression that he denied this in any way, shape, or form. Kevin is simply discussing the principles of God's dealing with sin in context. The way of the sword has never been God's way for Christ said to Peter, "Put your sword away. He who lives by the sword will perish by the sword." The Isrealites had elected the way of the sword against the will of God but God did not abandon them. He gave them instructions accordingly with the hope that in time they would see the error of their way and return to His way.

sky

[pegleg bates]

The Isrealites had elected the way of the sword against the will of God but God did not abandon them. He gave them instructions accordingly with the hope that in time they would see the error of their way and return to His way.

First of all, this is an unbiblical presumption.

Secondly, I explained previously how this strategy would be illogical for God. Compare this scenario to a father dealing with a sexually promiscuous child. In this analogy, the father would command the child to engage in sexually immoral acts with the hope that the child would see the error of her ways.

This doesn't make sense. Think about it for a moment. If God commanded violence in an effort to show us how bad it is, why didn't he do the same for other things? God should have commanded the Israelites to construct thousands of graven images so that they could see the error of their ways. That would be consistent.

[skyblue888]

Did not God wink at their polygamy? When they asked for a king, did He not give them a king against His own will? When they asked for meat, did not the Lord give them meat against His own will? They also insisted on defending themselves with the sword and they perished by the sword in A.D.70. They chose to have a man as their king until they said, We have no king but Ceasar.

Kevin covered all these aspects very thoroughly.

sky

[pegleg bates]

Did not God wink at their polygamy? When they asked for a king, did He not give them a king against His own will? When they asked for meat, did not the Lord give them meat against His own will? They also insisted on defending themselves with the sword and they perished by the sword in A.D.70. They chose to have a man as their king until they said, We have no king but Ceasar.

Kevin covered all these aspects very thoroughly.

[skyblue888]

They asked for a king and God gave them a king. He gave them the desire of their hearts until they cired, "We have no king but Ceasar."

They asked for meat. Again God gave them the desire of their hearts. He did give the command and a multitude of birds appeared. They ate until the meat was coming out of their ears and thousands perished.

Do we need to go over this again? I think not. Kevin covered just about every detail.

Indignus, I have read your rebuttals and I was left with the impression that no matter what evidence was shown from the Word or the Testimonies it was to no avail with you personally.

sky

[Kevin Straub]

NOTICE to ALL regarding the comments of one "Indignus" in the discussion of issues pertaining to God's character and the modality of His "destroying" activity:

I have never said anything about typos. The Bible uses the words and phrases of the time, in the manner of thinking of the time. They were written as such and are not mistaken. Example: God killed Saul. Explanation: Saul committed suicide.

Indignus, you are coming against what I have said in a way that disinforms the readers and I am asking you to please stop. If you can't read what I am saying without distorting it to say things I never said, then please make no further misleading assessments. This is not honest or Christian.

Thank-you.

[Kevin Straub]

Sky, this is a branch of the CoG study that requires the establishment of how the wicked actually die and why it is vitally important to the resolution of the great controversy. To go off on this tangent with a theory that Satan is demoted to physical existence has no Biblical support and it presents some serious problems. To postulate that demonic degradation over time takes the form of being locked into the physical realm has no support in inspiration. I cannot accept it as anything but pure conjecture and it doesn't help us in our work of presenting the truth about God.

I don't think this discussion should be taken up in this thread because while it is related to the overall theme of the Character of God it is not dealing with the subject here, which is God's commands to kill. The subject of Satan's demise is an advanced discussion. I have privately sent you some documents for your perusal and I look forward to your thoughts once you have had some time to read and process those studies.

[Kevin Straub]

Indignus, your analogy is not accurate or valid. You are again saying things I did not say and which I would deny. I never said that God commanded violence "in an effort to show them how bad it is." I said that He "commanded" violence in order to advise them within their own faulty paradigm of self-defense and conquest by the sword. When we choose to go contrary to God in a given arean, God does not wholly cast us off but continues with us, trying to show us the better way. Primarily, He does this by Jesus. We can only look to Him to properly understand God's ways.

If God abandoned us entirely to the wielding of our swords, giving us over to unfettered brandishing of the ways of folly, we would descend into deeper darkness at an exponential rate and the likely outcome would be that we would die quickly. I believe that He gives us over little by little, always trying to get us to see the error of our ways before things get worse. But if we persist in evil, what can He do?

The analogy that compares a parent and daughter is not that a parent turns her out to a life of promiscuity. I don't know how you could ever fall into portraying me as coming across this way. You are not a careful reader. I am answering you only for the benefit of any others who may be following our discussion. Otherwise, I trust you only to twist any explanation I might give into something else, according to your mode of "discussion." The parent sits down the daughter who has already decided to become sexaully active and says, in effect, "As you already know, I do not condone premarital relations. But for the sake of your health, do not have unprotected sex. For the sake of your future life and the well-being of the child, do not get pregnant outside of marriage." In Biblical language, it would be portrayed as a command, e.g., "Use protection at all times." He said, "Slay utterly" and He had good reasons for telling them this. But it was not HIS way to go in and slay utterly. This was His advice concerning THEIR way of the sword.

I trust that these clarifications will help most readers. I do not think that Mr. Indignus will concede a point no matter how much careful accounting I might give of what I did and did not say. It is my preference to not speak to him or to have him make any further comments, but to study with those who bring a serious mind to the discussion; who believe that there might be something to learn with regard to the language of the violence of God. Indignus has already shown that his spirit is one of mockery (kittens) so there is nothing to do for him until he repents of his attitude.

[Kevin Straub]

I keep getting drawn into dealing with this "Indignus" person's wild assertions. It is good to go to the words of inspiration and this is what I shall continue to do, as necessary.

Indignus says:

Polygamy

"God has no opinion on polygamy. The objections to it are man-made."

Inspiration says:

"To the crime of murder, in which Cain had led the way, Lamech, the fifth in descent, added polygamy, and, boastfully defiant, he acknowledged God, only to draw from the avenging of Cain an assurance of his own safety. [see Gen. 4:19.] Abel had led a pastoral life, dwelling in tents or booths, and the descendants of Seth followed the same course, counting themselves "strangers and pilgrims on the earth," seeking "a better country, that is, an heavenly." Hebrews 11:13, 16." {PP 81.1}

"Polygamy had been early introduced, contrary to the divine arrangement at the beginning. The Lord gave to Adam one wife,

showing His order in that respect. But after the Fall, men chose to follow their own sinful desires; and as the result, crime and wretchedness rapidly increased. Neither the marriage relation nor the rights of property were respected. Whoever coveted the wives or the possessions of his neighbor, took them by force, and men exulted in their deeds of violence." {PP 91.3}

"Polygamy was practiced at an early date. It was one of the sins that brought the wrath of God upon the antediluvian world. Yet after the Flood it again became widespread. It was Satan's studied effort to pervert the marriage institution, to weaken its obligations and lessen its sacredness; for in no surer way could he deface the image of God in man and open the door to misery and vice.

From the opening of the great controversy it has been Satan's purpose to misrepresent God's character and to excite rebellion against His law, and this work appears to be crowned with success." {PP 338.1,2}

"The Lord said of Noah and his family who were saved in the ark, "For thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation." Noah had but one wife; and their united family discipline was blessed of God. Because Noah's sons were righteous, they were preserved in the ark with their righteous father. God has not sanctioned polygamy in a single instance. [Yet, He "gave" wives to David from his master's house.] It was contrary to his will. He knew that the happiness of man would be destroyed by it. Abraham's peace was greatly marred by his unhappy marriage with Hagar." {1SP 94.1}

Gen. 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

1 Tim. 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife,

3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife

Titus 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife

Jesus has one wife:

Rev. 21:9 I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

It is interesting that Indignus claims that it is inconsistent to demonstrate that God only gave instructions in killing as proof of permissive will. Here, then, is the Bible language presenting what is apparently God's proactive involvement in the perpetration of adultery:

2 Sam. 12:11 Thus saith the LORD [to David], Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give [them] unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

12:12 For thou didst [it] secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

Also, in the same chapter:

12:8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if [that had been] too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

Am I twisting Scripture, creating loopholes to support a spurious argument? How? What I see is a harmonization of all the Scriptures so that we no longer have glaring contradictions that make Christianity and its Bible a laughing stock of agnosticism and atheism.

Indignus says:

King

"This was something that the people begged for. This is not something that God commanded. These are two different things. It is dishonest to compare them like you have done."

Inspiration says:

I am not being dishonest, my friend. I can answer with the Word. Deal with the Word! The Word presents the people demanding, it is true. It also presents the fulfillment of the demand by the hand of the Lord. His appointing, anointing and setting up of the kingship of Saul is no less than a command.

It is good that you would focus upon the story of Saul's anointing, for it is a primary exhibit of God's permissive will, giving instructions-as-command in matters that come originally from the rebellious will of the human heart.

1 Sam. 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel ...came to Samuel...,

8:5 And said unto him,...make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

8:6 ...And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.

8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee

1 Sam. 9:17 And when Samuel saw Saul, the LORD said unto him, Behold the man whom I spake to thee of! this same shall reign over my people.

10:1 Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured [it] upon his head, and kissed him, and said, [is it] not because the LORD hath anointed thee [to be] captain over his inheritance?

15:11 ...I have set up Saul [to be] king:

The setting up of Saul had not to do with the establishing of the kingdom of God even though God selected the king. It was after the will of man and as such was a detour in salvation history.

"In the kingdom of God, position is not gained through favoritism. It is not earned, nor is it received through an arbitrary bestowal. It is the result of character. The crown and the throne are the tokens of a condition attained--tokens of self-conquest through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ." {AA 543.1}

Even though God commanded it by establishing it as a function of His will, it was not according to His character, which would obviously be His perfect will. It was His will to give over to the people and as such, they would still accept His leadership to a certain extent, so He was able to select a king for them. What that king did with his own free will ended up making a mess and disqualifying him from the kingdom, but God "set Him up" nevertheless. All human kingdoms, institutions, governments, and codes are doomed to fail, no matter how much God is able to work with them. Ultimately, God's perfect will must be followed for eternal life to manifest. Anything that has anything of permissive will in it comes to destruction, because it has the taint of carnal will, the will of the fallen flesh. Such is inherently doomed to second death and must be entirely cleansed out. Permissive will, although the term is not used in the Bible, is wrath. It is God giving over to the consequences. Ultimately, it is death. The Bible can say that God ordains a thing, such as kings and governments, but it is all wrath and the paradigm is not a way of life. God must be ALL in ALL. Anything less is self-destruction. The people's will to have "a visible head" is the "hidden sin" of the common order of this world, wherein we have humans ruling humans. In the church it is the common understanding that we must have layers of human authority because it is all we know in this world, but it is nevertheless the hidden sin of God's people, as well, who have patterned themselves after the world and have removed God.

Hosea 13:9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me [is] thine help.

13:10 I will be thy king: where [is any other] that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes?

13:11 I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took [him] away in my wrath.

13:12 The iniquity of Ephraim [is] bound up; his sin [is] hid.

In the restoration, God will be the Head of His church, as He is now in this final generation uniting the church on earth with the church in heaven. Hosea continues to unwind this thing. Look:

14:1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. [the iniquity of rejecting God, as per 1 Samuel 8:7 "And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them."].

14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive [us] graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

14:3 Asshur [Assyria--the nations of earth] shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, [Ye are] our gods [our own ways of self-governance]: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.

14:4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him. [What anger is spoken of in this context? "I gave thee a king in mine anger" cf. 13:11.]

14:5 I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.

14:6 His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon.

14:7 They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive [as] the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof [shall be] as the wine of Lebanon. [in Scripture, being "under the shadow" denotes "under the rule"]

14:8 Ephraim [shall say], What have I to do any more with idols? I have heard [him], and observed him: I [am] like a green fir tree. From me is thy fruit found. [The desire for kingly rule is idolatry, for it is putting man in place of God.]

14:9 Who [is] wise, and he shall understand these [things]? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD [are] right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.

Understand the call for wisdom, here, in the matter pertaining to the ordination of human kings vs. a return to God.

One more gem of thought which I just came across I must present here for your consideration on this most important point of discussion, and we move on:

"The Lord permitted Moses to choose for himself the most faithful and efficient men to share the responsibility with him. Their influence would assist in holding in check the violence of the people, and quelling insurrection; yet serious evils would eventually result from their promotion. They would never have been chosen had Moses manifested faith corresponding to the evidences he had witnessed of God's power and goodness. But he had magnified his own burdens and services, almost losing sight of the fact that he was only the instrument by which God had wrought. He was not excusable in indulging, in the slightest degree, the spirit of murmuring that was the curse of Israel. Had he relied fully upon God, the Lord would have guided him continually and would have given him strength for every emergency." {PP 380.2, emphasis added}

So, this supports what I have been saying about permissive will:

1. God allows or gives over to human weakness or hardness of heart and it appears as His command and if not careful, as His express (perfect) will, although it is but a "permission."

2. It is for the purpose of holding violence in check. It simply slows down the destructive outcome of human will.

3. Serious evils will still be the result if left to run unrepented of.

4. It is the result of faithlessness and rejection of God for the place of man.

5. It is not exusable.

6. We can rely on God alone and He will give us strength to meet the world in HIS way, not man's ways.

Indignus says:

When they asked for meat

The reason that God was unwilling to give them meat was because they were ungrateful for the food that he had already provided. God gave them meat, yes, but it was just a trick to spite them. Ironic to your beliefs, God swiftly dealt justice with violence:

Inspiration says:

Justice was dealt swiftly, as it often is, but God's forbearance is not to be put on trial, here. God is slow to anger. He does not give over on a whim or in an instant. This thing was building up in the hearts of the people until the murmuring became so loud that God "had to" give over. It came mostly from the Egyptians that came out with the people. They were the ones used to a more varied diet as available to the nationals.

Numbers 11:4 And the mixed multitude that [was] among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat?

11:5 We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the leeks, and the onions, and the garlic:

The Israelite slaves during their bondage in Egypt, had been compelled to subsist on the plainest and simplest food; but then keen appetite induced by privation and hard labor had made it palatable. Many of the Egyptians, however, who were now among them, had been accustomed to a luxurious diet; and these were the first to complain. At the giving of the manna, just before Israel reached Sinai, the Lord had granted them flesh in answer to their clamors; but it was furnished them for only one day. {PP 377.4}

To say that God was tricking them out of spite is yet another outrageous statement that is nothing less than an attack on His character. God is not spiteful and He does not play tricks. Who is it that makes God out to be capricious and vindictive, such a revengeful tyrant? Who is it that perpetrates indignities such as this against the name of God? This is the work of the enemy!

Now the prince of darkness, working through his agents, represents God as a revengeful tyrant.... {DD 15.2}

Satanic Cruelty vs. Divine Love

Thus the archfiend clothes with his own attributes the Creator and Benefactor of mankind. Cruelty is satanic.... Satan himself is the enemy who tempts man to sin, and then destroys him if he can; and when he has made sure of his victim, then he exults in the ruin he has wrought. {DD 15.3}

1 Chron. 16:34 O give thanks unto the LORD; for [he is] good; for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

See also: 2 Chron. 5:13; 7:3; Ezra 3:11; Ps. 100:5, 106:1, 107:1, 118:1, 29, 136:1; Jer. 33:11, which all repeat the same thought.

So, we must read any language pertaining to God being short on mercy or practicing any type of cruelty in another way, noting especially v. 26:

1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

1:32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

1:33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

Psalm 78 recounts the story of the people being stricken with death because of their gluttony on flesh meat.

78:18 And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust.

78:21 Therefore the LORD heard [this], and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel;

78:26 He caused an east wind to blow in the heaven: and by his power he brought in the south wind.

78:27 He rained flesh also upon them as dust, and feathered fowls like as the sand of the sea:

78:28 And he let [it] fall in the midst of their camp, round about their habitations.

78:29 So they did eat, and were well filled: for he gave them their own desire;

78:30 They were not estranged from their lust. But while their meat [was] yet in their mouths,

78:31 The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen [men] of Israel.

God gave the people that which was not for their highest good, because they persisted in desiring it; they would not be satisfied with those things that would prove a benefit to them. Their rebellious desires were gratified, but they were left to suffer the result. They feasted without restraint, and their excesses were speedily punished. "The Lord smote the people with a very great plague." Large numbers were cut down by burning fevers, while the most guilty among them were smitten as soon as they tasted the food for which they had lusted. {PP 382.2}

I am not going to get into any exploration of the mechanism, here, as to why some came down with a fever and others died immediately. Obviously there would have been many who did not die from eating the quail or else they refused it and still had manna, or they partook of it with humble and thankful hearts, having received it without murmuring and therefore remaining within the bounds of God's protection from whatever forces were released to the effect of the demise of the others. I don't know what the behind-the-scenes story is here. The fact remains that this was God giving over to them their own desire and whatever the actual cause of death was, it would not have been God's direct doing, but a natural result of their being handed over. Also, it is important to note that God gave a warning that it would make them sick: "until it come out at your nostrils" (Num. 11:20). Often vomiting and fever goes together.

Again, when God gives over, He withdraws and leaves the impenitent one subject to the chaotic rule of one or a combination of the following:

1. Wicked self

2. Wicked humans

3. Demons

4. Nature

I hope you have enjoyed reading this study as much as I have been blessed to present it.

[pegleg bates]

Am I twisting Scripture, creating loopholes to support a spurious argument? How? What I see is a harmonization of all the Scriptures so that we no longer have glaring contradictions that make Christianity and its Bible a laughing stock of agnosticism and atheism.

And the truth is revealed! This is why you feel compelled to read the Bible with a big black marker, redacting the Word that the Lord has give you. You are ashamed of God, aren't you?

Kevin, do not be ashamed. Satan has planted false "morality" even in our churches. For example, per the will of God, I do not allow my wife to debate theology or read the Bible unsupervised:

1 Chorinthians 14:34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

This is the real truth of the Word, but Satan has tricked us into thinking that women should be preachers and deacons. Those who believe these lies will face the wrath of the Almighty:

Nahum 1:2 The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. The Lord takes vengeance on his foes and vents his wrath against his enemies. 3 The Lord is slow to anger but great in power; the Lord will not leave the guilty unpunished.

Similarly, Satan has deceived us into thinking that it is God's moral will to lay down and be butchered by the wicked. This is not so! Brother, read the Bible without distorting it, and the truth will reveal itself. We must shower our friends and our enemies with love--tough love to be specific. We must show them the error of their ways as it is the will of the Lord. Just as God sacrificed his son, we must sacrifice ours in his name. The lamb represents the ultimate sacrifice.

God has given us this incredible gift of violence. Do not be ungrateful for this nourishment like the Israelites in the desert. Eat the manna and live.

[Kevin Straub]

Oh, brother. This is truly sad. I pray you don't kill me one day, because I would be the enemy who needs to be shown the error of his ways. It is apparent that your theology renders such a one as myself as deserving of a lead supplement.

I don't think any further comment is required. My condolences to your wife.

[Kevin Straub]

Tell me something, "Indignus," how did you get from being a teenage atheist because you couldn't reconcile issues in the Bible regarding scientific questions, to where you are today, believing in a violent God who requires a service of love yet will actively kill those who choose not to render that service, who says do not kill, but kills?

I am still shaking my head in amazement over your statement about your control over your wife. Is she okay with having to be supervised when she reads the Bible? This has to be one of the most bizzarre things I have heard from a professed Christian in a long time. Are you a Christian? I am wondering if you aren't a satirist? You are having a good laugh at my expense, right? Alright, haha. You really had me going, there.

[pegleg bates]

You got me Kevin

Good luck with your book! I wish more Christians interpreted the Bible like you.

PS I have to admit I couldn't stop giggling when I posted that bit about my wife.

[Kevin Straub]

Well, I am not sure what to say. I spent a lot of time working with your posts. It occurred to me a few times that you might be satirizing the standard view. Why did you do this? Who are you (and what medications are you on)?

[pegleg bates]

Why did you do this? Who are you (and what medications are you on)?

The better question is not who I am, but rather what I am. I share the burden of the flesh, but I am not human like you: I am a higher force manifested in a physical vessel. We have come to free mankind of the burden of nature. You are ready to transcend the age of mythology and enter the age of love and peace. This is the fifth creation.

[Kevin Straub]

Alrighty, then.