Soul sleep and the incarnation.

[Gibs]

The Father vested His Deity in our Redeemer before Bethlemem and at Bethlemem He came in Jesus Christ. Before Bethlehem He was called according to Isaiah as "LORD of Hosts". Then at Bethlehem He came in the Babe Jesus Christ and Heaven was emptied of "LORD of Hosts".

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

He was born one of us and yet the Son of The Most High. He was human but cannot be considered altogether human as His Father was God and the Father determines the blood of the offspring.

When He died on the cross humanity died, the vestment of the Father in Him did not as that is impossible. The Deity vested in Him did not return to the Father as Jesus had stated "I have power to lay down my life and power to take it up again". (quote may not be exact) Deity remained with the body which was not to come to corruption and no doubt for that reason.

It may have been a message from the Father in Heaven via the Angel to announce the wake up call and the Deity in Him is the power that raised the Body, it was His, Jesus Christ's to use for that purpose.

That message to the Angel also may have come from the Father vested in Him from the grave I do not know but the vestment the Father gave in Him was separated from the Father in Heaven but no doubt perfect communication.

The Deity in Christ was of the one and same substance as the Father.

Since the Father determines the blood of the offspring, the blood of God was shed by Him for our sins,

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

That is my see of this and many will disagree but do think about it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

This is when I find His human nature was separating from His Divine nature,

Mt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mt 27:47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.

Mt 27:48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.

Mt 27:49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.

Mt 27:50 ¶ Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

..."Today [ not tomorrow or the end of time ] you shall be with me in paradise".

Neither Jesus nor the thief went to Paradise that day. Put the comma after "today" and you will have it correct.

And I suppose that you can imagine Jesus, beaten to within an inch of his life already...

...Hanging on the cross talking like He was walking around in Jerusalem teaching people!

The comma joke is a standard JW argument.

[Gustave]

Just to add to that Jesus said this after the Resurrection.

John 20:17 KJV

(17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Paradise was NOT where the Father was understood to be 12 Tribes.....

...One "decended" to Paradise at that time.

[Gustave]

Robert, are ya sure you would like to go over the same ground we did a while back....

...As I recall that didn't go very well for your position.

http://clubadventist.org/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/485275/1.html

[Gibs]

Lu 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Forget about the comma, the fact is noone yet is in the paradise for redeemed man. We all sleep to resurrection # 1 to take part in it.

So it must surely be a fact Jesus is saying, today I say unto thee thou shalt be with me in paradise. It was the next day I believe the thief died and he wasn't then in paradise that day either. He isn't yet and we too have that hope that have faith.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gustave]

Lu 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

[Gibs]

Gustave, I'm not going to go that paradise is in the grave. Jesus wasn't in paradise either that day or the next so how could the thief be with him but in the grave.

Jesus read the thief’s heart and saw he was truly converted and would be a safe subject and so assured him of paradise which of course to the thief would only be like a nites sleep.

People like to use Jesus's statement to him to uphold, just believe and you are saved and I will not buy that conclusion.

And I am not a trinitarian as that don't hold up.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[earl40]

Please note the following:

"Jesus said to Mary, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father." When He closed His eyes in death upon the cross, the soul of Christ did not go at once to heaven, as many believe, or how could His words be true--"I am not yet ascended to my Father"? The spirit of Jesus slept in the tomb with His body, and did not wing its way to heaven, there to maintain a separate existence, and to look down upon the mourning disciples embalming the body from which it had taken flight. All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained with His body in the sepulcher; and when He came forth it was as a whole being; He did not have to summon His spirit from heaven. He had power to lay down His life and to take it up again" (3SP 203, 204). {5BC 1150.6}

Just to be clear here....you believe Jesus slept and was unconscious while His body was in the grave, right?

BTW God does not sleep and Jesus is God.

[Gerr]

Neither Jesus nor the thief went to Paradise that day. Put the comma after "today" and you will have it correct.

That has already been answered several times. His human nature died but His divine nature did not. And if you read my post #517896, those scripture passages that there is nothing "immaterial" in man that lives on after death.

[Gerr]

And I suppose that you can imagine Jesus, beaten to within an inch of his life already...

...Hanging on the cross talking like He was walking around in Jerusalem teaching people!

The comma joke is a standard JW argument.

Soooo, which is the bigger joke, the comma or that the grave is paradise? Who put the comma where it is, the gospel writer? The comma is there because that's what the translator believed!

[Robert]

Robert, are ya sure you would like to go over the same ground we did a while back....

...As I recall that didn't go very well for your position.

What position was that?

[Robert]

That's correct, paradise was simply are area of that place the dead went...

Still can't enjoy it since your dead!

[12tribes]

Originally Posted By: 12 Tribes

Just to add to that Jesus said this after the Resurrection.

John 20:17 KJV

(17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Paradise was NOT where the Father was understood to be 12 Tribes.....

...One "decended" to Paradise at that time.

That is not what the Bible says. So you are saying that hell is paradise?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Robert, are ya sure you would like to go over the same ground we did a while back....

...As I recall that didn't go very well for your position.

What position was that?

Yes?

[Gustave]

Strong's G3857

the part OF Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise

Jesus would qualify as a "later Jew", He believed as did ALL the Jews ( with the exception of the Saaducees ) that there was a part of "Hell" which contained the souls of pious people.

Luke 16,22

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Strong's, Abraham's bosom, G2859 )

1 )the front of the body between the arms

2) the bosom of a garment, i.e. the hollow formed by the upper forepart of a rather loose garment bound by a girdle or sash, used for keeping and carrying things (the fold or pocket)

So Robert, you are still of the thinking that Christ, because He didn't know any better...

...Had to use a lie to teach a truth?

Does it seriously jive to you that Jesus would have used a common Jewish belief in His own teaching if that part of the belief was as SDA's call it ( the great lie of Satan )?

[Gustave]

That is not what the Bible says. So you are saying that hell is paradise?

Yes 12 Tribes, the Bible says explicitly that there was a portion of hell ( abode of the dead ) that was reserved for the Pious.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

That's correct, paradise was simply are area of that place the dead went...

Still can't enjoy it since your dead!

I'm sure it's all funny to you - a big joke...

...Similar to the creature christ doctrine Ellen White promulgated.

[12tribes]

Originally Posted By: 12 Tribes

That is not what the Bible says. So you are saying that hell is paradise?

Yes 12 Tribes, the Bible says explicitly that there was a portion of hell ( abode of the dead ) that was reserved for the Pious.

Where is your Bible? Where does the Bible say hell is paradise? The Bible says heaven is paradise.

Revelation 2:7 KJV

(7) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

[Gibs]

Oops!, man if hell, grave is paradise we sure won't know of it's grandeur as the dead know nothing or take part in anything under the sun.

I rather have come to the conclusion Paradise will be after the 1'st resurrection and those who are of it only will experience the grandeur of paradise.

Anyway fellow travelers, we don't have much longer to wait, we are at the finish line, do get ready and do it quickly, time is very short now!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Not exactly as you state, "So the humanity of Jesus slept between the cross and His resurrection IYO?". His Body lay there and was not to be dead long enough to see corruption, the spirit, which is the life of the body was to re-enter it before it did and it did and He became a living human again. Deity vested in Him of the Father took care of the situation.

For sure He took no part as a human in anything that went on, but the Father that was in Him was not asleep. But the Spirit of the man left the body and He, Jesus slept. When He came back it was as if only a nites sleep.

Please any and all, I'm not into texting and the abeviations used lots of times used I don't get them. They may be common to you but not to all of us.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

The above sounds like you think Jesus was uncousious between the cross and resurection. Jesus was totally alive at that time for He says He would raise His body.

Not necessarily. You are infusing human logic into it. Jesus could be unconscious between the cross and the resurrection, yet still raise Himself. Other passages say that the Father raised Jesus.

The only conclusion is that Jesus raised Himself THROUGH the Father. That "Divinity", was in the Father's possession--the Divine Source. But, to believe that Jesus was conscious between the two resurrections, and that because Jesus raised Himself, this is human conjecture and built on an unwarranted assumption.

Jesus was completely unconscious during those 3 days. He had to taste "death" fully, as humans do, in order to pay the full price of sin.

To believe that Jesus was conscious during his death is to subscribe to Platonic paganism. Foolish, pagan, garbage. The Bible does not teach the dichotomy of the Soul. A soul comprises of body + spirit.

The "spirit" that goes back to God who gave it is simply the "life force" which God originally "gave"--meaning, "he had it before". When God "breathed" the breath of life, or the "spirit" into Adam, this means that God had that "spirit" or "life"....before. Does this mean that Adam was a floating conscious spirit prior to being infused into his own body?

Anyone with a particle of spiritual gray matter between his ears knows that such a notion has entered the realm of absurdity.

And by the way, Adventists do not believe in "Soul Sleep" as many Evangelicals wish to believe Adventists teach.

This term "Soul Sleep", was coined by the evangelicals in order to put a "negative connotation" to the belief.

What Adventists TRULY believe is...."ENTIRE BEING SLEEP". Body and Spirit. Now, if one wishes to go by the TRUE definition of the word "soul", which is a combination of body and spirit, then "Soul Sleep" would make sense. But, since the evangelical world does not believe the Soul is related to the body, and is separate, then we would are misleading them by claiming to believe what they accuse us of believing. Because in their minds, there is some separate "soul", which is "asleep".

The entire allegory of "sleep" associated with death is to illustrate a point: That there will be an "awakening" at the resurrection.

[Lysimachus]

Paradise a holding place. ROFL! Wow, no wonder atheists think of Christians as weirdos. ...

[jasd]

QR frame:

Quote:

"The angelic commander laid hold of the great stone which had required many strong men to place it in position, rolled it away, and took his seat upon it, while his companion entered the sepulcher and unwound the wrappings from the face and head of Jesus. […] {3SP 192.1}

One wonders:

Jn 20:8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

What did Saint John see that caused him to “believe”?

Lu 24:12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.

“the linen clothes laid by themselves” as opposed to what? There is no reference in Writ to anything else in the tomb, other than the body of Jesus Christ, that ought validate the clause “the linen clothes laid by themselves” – unless the text is meant to convey the thought that the clothes were laid as though still wrapped, as though by themselves; that is, the body which had been bound in the linen clothes had passed through them – as though a spirit… Which indeed happened in the shut room where the Disciples hid - yet, Jesus Christ, in a moment was there in the midst of the Disciples and those who waited with them; that is, He passed through material barriers as would a spirit…

[jasd]

Quote:

"Jesus said to Mary, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father." When He closed His eyes in death upon the cross, the soul of Christ did not go at once to heaven, as many believe, or how could His words be true--"I am not yet ascended to my Father"? The spirit of Jesus slept in the tomb with His body, […] (3SP 203, 204). {5BC 1150.6}

The matter is simply one that attends the definition of Paradise and where it is or was located – not whether Jesus Christ had ascended to His Father.

Per Paradise: Paradise (Median/Old Persian; paradaesa comes to us via the Greek) was a concept widely known and readily understood. It is a small representation of the whole – a walled or enclosed area – a garden, if you will – as such, seemed Eden.

Jesus spoke the words, “Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise” - to the thief as fact – rather than, perhaps, figurative... One repairs to the Strong’s Concordance to see the number of times that Jesus Christ employed “Verily I say unto thee”, and notices the inordinate number of times He did – giving cause to believe that that phrase was a signature phrase of His – much as the redundant “Amen and amen” was a signature phrase. To insist that He digressed with an anomalistic “Today” followed by a comma/pause in Luke 23:43 infers what is not warranted in practice or pattern.

A question obtaining may be: was the garden/Paradise where Gd would have been on the day of crucifixion? The answer, of course, is - doubtful.

Per “The spirit of Jesus slept in the tomb with His body, […] (3SP 203, 204). {5BC 1150.6}”

[jasd]

QR frame:

>>This is when I find His human nature was separating from His Divine nature,

Mt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?<<

Should one endorse the fact that Jesus Christ’s divinity was actually divested of its humanity – I suppose that one may accept that indeed - it may have been upon that moment or near-upon that moment – that He, in fact, received His ‘change’, His ‘glorifying’..

To the many medical suppositions, let me add another thought…

Jesus Christ had already informed His listeners that flesh and blood could not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. The water and the blood that flowed when He was pierced – may have been Jesus Christ’s blood turning into or becoming a plasma, which together with flesh, bone – could enter Heaven. (There are elements that excited - tend to solidify, inhibiting the natural flow that a former fluid state provided. It may be that in the Heavenly state, one is more energized, which would ‘glutenate’, as it were, the blood.)

The thief on the cross may have entered with Jesus Christ only in spirit – not yet receiving his change until the OT saints had received theirs…