Soul sleep and the incarnation.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Robert, are ya sure you would like to go over the same ground we did a while back....

...As I recall that didn't go very well for your position.

What position was that?

???

[Gustave]

Where is your Bible? Where does the Bible say hell is paradise? The Bible says heaven is paradise.

Let's open our Bibles then.

Luke 16,19

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, AND was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Now, you and other Arians would have me believe that Christ, to make his point...

...Had to use "the first lie of the Devil" because He was obviously incapable.

...Of transmiting religious truth w/out having to use Satan's lies.

In case you missed it that's Jesus, right there, telling you...

...That after Lazarus died he was taken to a place of comfort.

...And that the rich man, when he died was taken to a place of torment.

How would either individual know if they were in comfort or torment....

...If as you say, once a person dies they become as if they were never born until the Resurrection of the body?

...It's simply more Arianism you are pushing here.

Jesus was a Jew who was speaking to Jews in a Jewish religious context....

...And aside from the Sadducees ( which Jesus specifically rebuked ) Jews believed.

...In torments or peace AFTER DEATH & prior to the Resurrection of the body.

Keep your Bible open.

Acts 23,4

And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest? Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people. But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided. For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both. And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God.

Paul said He WAS a Pharisee & the text states very clearly that Pharisees....

...Believed in the Resurrection of the body AND SPIRITS.

...The Saducees rejected that at death man became an angel or spirit.

Sadducees accepted the 1st 5 Books of the Bible and as such believed in God & angels God created...

...What they rejected was that there was ANYTHING after death.

...No Resurrection, no spirits of dead people in torment or comfort, ZILCH.

To the Pharisees a very just man would "become" an angel at death...

...What more do you need to see 12 Tribes?

...All Arian sects promulgate soul sleeping and creature christs.

[Gustave]

You want to do it all over aggain Robert it's fine with me...

...I'm happy to go over all this again - it will end just like the last one.

[Robert]

You want to do it all over aggain Robert it's fine with me...

...I'm happy to go over all this again - it will end just like the last one.

yes...you and your theology were exposed. I'll do it again if you can stomach it.

[Gustave]

Yeah, sure Robert, given the last thread was locked simply take off where that one ended....

...I would be happy to continue the discussion.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

You want to do it all over aggain Robert it's fine with me...

...I'm happy to go over all this again - it will end just like the last one.

yes...you and your theology were exposed. I'll do it again if you can stomach it.

First let me begin by saying that all false doctrines attack the gospel.

How does the teaching of an immortal soul attack the gospel?

First, let me point out something in Ez 18:20

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die."

Now who has sinned?

Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned"

Because "all have sinned" then all must die. Nothing lives on after death. Why?

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh [my humanity]), dwelleth no good thing!

Did you get that? What's good in our humanity? Nothing! Everything has been touched by sin (our bent-to-self).

So, if you insist that something lives on after death that something (whatever you want to call it) must be righteous. Hence the Bible is wrong and something in you is good that escapes the grave.

So your doctrine, the immortal soul, attacks the truth of our humanity and its need of Christ's righteousness. The blessed hope is the resurrection where we put on immortality.....

[Robert]

The blessed hope is the resurrection where we put on immortality.....

1 Cor 15:17 If Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

If Christ never was resurrected then our first death would be our final death - i.e., no hope of a resurrection. Ah, but there's good news:

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. ....

Why does the Bible call death a sleep - is it? No, it's a metaphor. What does it mean?

Because our death is not permanent it's like a deep sleep. There will be an alarm clock - "the trumpet shall sound"!

Now let's continue:

50 Now this I say , brethren, that flesh and blood (our humanity) cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Why? There's nothing good in us. We are corrupt.

51 Behold , I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (remain dead) , but we shall all be changed ,

When?

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound....

Hence, at the 2nd coming we put on immortality. Then we will be fully restored to God's image.

54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then (not before) shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

[Robert]

I say this in the Lord....Gustave, give up and accept this truth. You can't defend the immortal soul. It's impossible!

[Gerr]

First let me begin by saying that all false doctrines attack the gospel.

How does the teaching of an immortal soul attack the gospel?

First, let me point out something in Ez 18:20

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die."

Now who has sinned?

Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned"

Because "all have sinned" then all must die. Nothing lives on after death. Why?

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh [my humanity]), dwelleth no good thing!

Did you get that? What's good in our humanity? Nothing! Everything has been touched by sin (our bent-to-self).

So, if you insist that something lives on after death that something (whatever you want to call it) must be righteous. Hence the Bible is wrong and something in you is good that escapes the grave.

So your doctrine, the immortal soul, attacks the truth of our humanity and its need of Christ's righteousness. The blessed hope is the resurrection where we put on immortality.....

Excellent point! I never thought of that!

[12tribes]

Originally Posted By: 12 Tribes

Where is your Bible? Where does the Bible say hell is paradise? The Bible says heaven is paradise.

Let's open our Bibles then.

Luke 16,19

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, AND was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Now, you and other Arians would have me believe that Christ, to make his point...

...Had to use "the first lie of the Devil" because He was obviously incapable.

...Of transmiting religious truth w/out having to use Satan's lies.

In case you missed it that's Jesus, right there, telling you...

...That after Lazarus died he was taken to a place of comfort.

...And that the rich man, when he died was taken to a place of torment.

How would either individual know if they were in comfort or torment....

...If as you say, once a person dies they become as if they were never born until the Resurrection of the body?

...It's simply more Arianism you are pushing here.

Jesus was a Jew who was speaking to Jews in a Jewish religious context....

...And aside from the Sadducees ( which Jesus specifically rebuked ) Jews believed.

...In torments or peace AFTER DEATH & prior to the Resurrection of the body.

Keep your Bible open.

Acts 23,4

And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest? Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people. But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided. For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both. And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God.

Paul said He WAS a Pharisee & the text states very clearly that Pharisees....

...Believed in the Resurrection of the body AND SPIRITS.

...The Saducees rejected that at death man became an angel or spirit.

Sadducees accepted the 1st 5 Books of the Bible and as such believed in God & angels God created...

...What they rejected was that there was ANYTHING after death.

...No Resurrection, no spirits of dead people in torment or comfort, ZILCH.

To the Pharisees a very just man would "become" an angel at death...

...What more do you need to see 12 Tribes?

...All Arian sects promulgate soul sleeping and creature christs.

[Robert]

Excellent point! I never thought of that!

Now there is something good in us as believers. It's the Holy Spirit that resides in our spirit (our inner mind). However, it would be a heresy to say we are God. God dwells in us...we are a partaker of His Divinity, but we aren't Divine.

When we die God's Spirit leaves our hearts and we go back to dust. The only hope is the resurrection. Then we will be raised without indwelling sin (the sin nature). We will be immortal and we will be in God's image. But that's at the 2nd coming. Of course you know all this....

[Gustave]

First let me begin by saying that all false doctrines attack the gospel.

[Robert]

Nothing in your reply to reply to....It was confusion at best. In other words you really said nothing.